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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

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V

Vespene

Member
Steelyuhas said:
I believe it was "She's given you nothing, no sons, only stillborns."

Interpret that how you will, but I took it as she didn't give you sons, but I still think that his daughter will be cut from the show.

As for Dany and ADWD, it only confirmed that the only thing I actually care about for the conclusion of the series is the Starks and the North getting their revenge and being restored as their own kingdom ruling the north.
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That was cleverly written. If the show runners decide to bring in his daughter later, they could. If not, they can just fall back on that line and say she never existed in the show universe.
 
A

AngryMoth

Member
ZeroRay said:
Apparently GRRM will do another Winds reading tomorrow.

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/ruo3y/grrm_will_be_doing_a_reading_of_a_chapter_from/

Second half of Victarion's chapter and a part of Tyrion's
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Hmm the ustream isn't working, doesn't seem like we can watch it live. It is supposed to be now right?

Edit: ok they never streamed it but here is a very brief summary:
George RR Martin read two chapters from The Winds of Winter this morning at the Olympus Eastercon.  The first was the Victarion chapter that has previously been reported, wherein the three thralls - the boy, the bastard's bastard and the brute, are charged with blowning the hellhorn.  Victarion plans to fool the Yunkish navy with a fleet made up mostly of merchant ships but filled with warriors.  He articulates his desire to take Dany as his bride and to win the Seastone Chair and the Iron Throne and generally get back at Euron Crow's Eye for past wrongs.  We learn that Moqorro can read the inscriptions on the hellhorn and that Victarion feeds it by rubbing his own blood into it.

For the second chapter we joined Tyrion playing cyvasse with Brown Ben, while they wait for 'Ser Grandfather's' army to sally forth and try to break the siege of Meereen.  These two share banter with other of Brown Ben's staff about what's the worst thing about waiting for the battle to start, punctuated by the sound of the trebuchets as they fling more plague corpses into Meereen.  Brown Ben muses that the two dragons are wild cards which could attack anyything on either side during the battle.  They assume Dany will return on the third dragon and speculate about rescuing the three hostages - Daario, the eunuch and the horse boy - and delivering them to Meereen thereby changing sides a second time but claiming that they only pretended to change sides before so as to learn the Yunkish plans.  Just as Tyrion is about to win the cyvasse game Jorah bursts in with news of black sails in the bay (ironborn ships) flying dragon banners.
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Also good news:
In other news, GRRM announced that the first four Dunk and Egg novellas will be published together  in a single volume, shortly after the publication of the fourth for the first time.
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I'll definitely be picking this up so I can finally get them all in one place.
 
A

apana

Member
If Jon is Azor Ahai won't he have to stab someone with his sword in order to turn it into Lightbringer like Azor Ahai stabbed his wife? My guess is that Jon will stab Melisandre in the heart, just a crazy hunch. Or does it have to be someone he loves? In that case Bran is just beyond the wall. I don't think it will be a conscious thing on his part if he stabs someone he loves, probably an accident or under the influence of a spell.
 
Z

ZeroRay

Member
Jaime is AA.

Stabs Brienne with Oathkeeper and creates the real Lightbringer.

Also Bran is the Great Other. Come at me.
 
T

tokkun

Member
apana said:
If Jon is Azor Ahai won't he have to stab someone with his sword in order to turn it into Lightbringer like Azor Ahai stabbed his wife? My guess is that Jon will stab Melisandre in the heart, just a crazy hunch. Or does it have to be someone he loves? In that case Bran is just beyond the wall. I don't think it will be a conscious thing on his part if he stabs someone he loves, probably an accident or under the influence of a spell.
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If that scenario arose, the likely candidate would be Ghost.
 
T

Tim the Wiz

Banned
apana said:
How did you come to this conclusion?
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The description of how Varys becomes a eunuch gives it some plausibility. The remains of his manhood is used in blood-magic. We see Melisandre bent on using the blood of kings in her own magic all the time. Varys being an unwanted Targaryen bastard who rises to prominence in the Free Cities by his own means would be an interesting arch. However, in the same conversation in which he reveals this part of his past with Sansa, he also claims to be born a slave somewhere far from KL before travelling there in his youth; not that a rape victim of the Mad King would have little impetus to get far away.
 
A

apana

Member
By the time they get to a Dance with Dragons on the tv show I will be just the right age to play Daario. I need to test out how I look with a purple beard or was it blue? I can't remember.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
Perhaps the most interesting theory I've heard since the Aegon/Blackfyre/AFFC one. This time in relation to Aegon, Jon, and Martin's take on the War Of The Roses

Azor Ahai/The Prince That Was Promised/The Last Hero will not be anybody in the series. Not Jon, not Stannis, not Aegon, not anybody. They will not appear.

I'm basing this on two of the most familiar tales/religious beliefs/myths known to people from Western Europe, and Britain/France in particular: those of King Arthur and of course, Jesus. You don't need to be Christian to know the prophecy about how Jesus will return in the world's greatest moment of need, that he rose from the dead on Easter after being crucified, etc. Likewise, King Arthur is also prophesied to return in Britain's greatest moment of need. King Arthur is probably the closer comparison for the return of some awesome guy in ASOIAF due to the parallels of the uber sword, and the general issue that Jesus apparently wouldn't hurt a fly, but they both serve the notion of different peoples holding beliefs that if shit hits the fan in the future, a past hero will return to bring salvation (I say different peoples because King Arthur predates Christianity in Britain, and is a Celtic hero, despite his Christianization in later adaptations of the myth). One of the titles afforded to Arthur is "The Once and Future King," which is remarkably reminiscent of "The Prince That Was Promised".

There have been countless supposed "returns" of these two men throughout history, with Jesus pretenders more common than Arthur ones. But in the time period of British history which GRRM draws on fairly heavily for his series (the Wars of the Roses), the return of King Arthur is a big question that is posed, especially at the very end, when Henry VII takes the throne in 1485. Arthurian legend was dramatically stimulated by the publication of Thomas Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur in 1485, being the most complete rendition of the mythology since Geoffey of Monmouth's History of the Kings of Britain in the 12th century. Malory's version is the one we grow up with, as its enormous popularity caused it to be the main source of almost every Arthurian tale published in the years after. Malory wrote the story while imprisoned, as he watched England being torn apart during the Wars of the Roses, and it is imbued with many thematic and tonal elements that reflect those events.

Now, when Henry VII comes to the throne, he has his court historians compile his ancestry, and they trace his heritage back to King Arthur, and place the original location of the city of Camelot at Winchester, the location supported by Malory's text. When it is clear that Henry's wife, Elizabeth of York (York as in the White Roses of the Wars of the Roses; Henry is descended from the Red Roses, i.e., the Lancasters... As York is in the north, and the Lancaster territories are comparatively south, I suppose a case could be made for Henry VII and Elizabeth of York being Rhaegar and Lyanna) is pregnant, Henry proclaims that she will birth a son who will bring a golden age to Britain, and he moves his entire court to Winchester (a.k.a. "Camelot") so that his son can be born there in honour of his ancestor, King Arthur, whose great feats the new heir apparent would equal. Sure enough, a baby boy is born in 1486, and Henry duly dubs him Arthur Tudor. Everyone rejoices, because Arthur has returned, and when he comes to the throne, he will heal the hurts of Britain, and be a good and gracious king, because you know, second coming and all.

Arthur grows up, and in one of the most promising of political alliances, marries Catherine of Aragon, a Princess of Spain, at the age of 15. About five months later, he dies of some sickness, which is not known, but possibly tuberculosis, or the sweating sickness. As a result, his younger brother, Henry, is made the new Prince of Wales (heir to the throne), and eventually Henry marries Catherine, his brother's widow. When Henry VII dies in 1509, the prince who was not promised is crowned King Henry VIII (as in the one with all the wives).

Now, we can try to fit all of the characters into the actual history, in which case it seems that Aegon is Prince Arthur Tudor, and then his younger brother would be Jon, who currently is repping Henry VIII (assuming that both are real); Rhaegar believed that his first son, Aegon, was TPTWP, just as Henry VII believed Arthur was the Once and Future King. In both situations, that beacon of hope is snuffed out before they reach the throne. Aegon has possibly escaped his infantile fate, but there is also the strong argument that he's fake, and I'm not going to debate for either. But if we are following the historical model I've set out here, Aegon's probably going to marry Daenerys, die of Westeros' version of sweating sickness or TB (grey scale or the Pale Mare) shortly thereafter, and then Jon marries Dany, his brother's wife. Re: IF we follow the historical model.

Regardless of whether Aegon and Jon are Arthur and Henry, or whether Aegon or Jon is supposedly TPTWP, or AA, or whatever, the history that I'm pushing here is that there never is a second coming of King Arthur. People prophecy that he's going to come back, they name princes after him, saying that they are Arthur reborn, and it is a major feature of the Wars of the Roses and the victorious Tudor dynasty. But Arthur never comes back, and I don't think AA/TPTWP will either. It doesn't mean that Aegon or Jon or whoever won't come to the throne, but the one that does won't be the returned hero.

OH and King Arthur's coat of arms? A red dragon. Just saying...
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http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/61662-crackpot-the-others-and-jon-snows-fate/page__st__20

Many people already agree Aegon's story is simply too good to be true, for Martin's world at least. The perfect prince, perfectly planned and perfectly hidden and trained for years. What better way for him to die than something completely unplanned and arbitrary, like a disease. Connington already has greyscale, afterall.
 
A

AngryMoth

Member
PhoenixDark said:
Perhaps the most interesting theory I've heard since the Aegon/Blackfyre/AFFC one. This time in relation to Aegon, Jon, and Martin's take on the War Of The Roses

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/61662-crackpot-the-others-and-jon-snows-fate/page__st__20

Many people already agree Aegon's story is simply too good to be true, for Martin's world at least. The perfect prince, perfectly planned and perfectly hidden and trained for years. What better way for him to die than something completely unplanned and arbitrary, like a disease. Connington already has greyscale, afterall.
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You're right, that was an interesting read. I doubt GRRM would parallel these events so directly, but the idea of Azor Ahai never returning is very compelling, and definitely fitting for the series. I certainly agree that there's no happy ending in store for Aegon. My main issue is that I don't really understand why Jon dies at the end of ADWD if he isn't AA, especially after heavy foreshadowing in the Melisandre chapter.
 
Q

q_q

Member
That article was well written and definitely an interesting read. But GRRM has stated time and time again that while many of the elements of his story are based on historical people and cultures and events, his story is not meant to follow history or serve as an allegory.
 
A

Azrael

Member
Introducing Aegon only to have him die from an illness would be ridiculously anticlimactic, and the House of the Undying prophecy points to him being one of Dany's three foes.
 
bengraven

bengraven

Member
If we go by the popular theory that Jon and Dani will fall in love, then what if Jon (ice) stabs Dani (fire) with the blade?
 
C

CrunchyB

Member
Azrael said:
Introducing Aegon only to have him die from an illness would be ridiculously anticlimactic, and the House of the Undying prophecy points to him being one of Dany's three foes.
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Yeah, Slayer of Lies. Greyscale has a role to play in the greater plot, but I doubt it's taking out Aegon.

Also, this is not just about succession of the throne, someone will have to deal with The Others. He or she may not live to see the end of the story, but there will be a hero of sorts.

( but it's still a very interesting essay )

elrechazao said:
Stabbing someone with a sword isn't a requirement to be azor ahai. Not sure why that's assumed.
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Yeah, people are taking those stories way too literally. If a new sword must be made, it can be created in any number of undoubtedly shocking ways. But more likely, "Lightbringer" is referring to Dany's dragons. They are probably the perfect weapon against the Others and the cost to create them has been very high.

That already makes more sense than it being some Valyrian sword. Because, come on, even if the sword automatically kills every Other it touches, how is one sword going to help against thousands or even millions of wights? Will it kill the purely hypothetical Great Other?

I'm not sure how any of this fits with the AA or TPTWP prophecies, but I'm sure Martin will cobble something together. If his comments about Lost and BSG are any indication, he will make sure to resolve those prophecies in some way.
 
K

KingK

Member
bengraven said:
If we go by the popular theory that Jon and Dani will fall in love, then what if Jon (ice) stabs Dani (fire) with the blade?
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I really, really hope they don't fall in love.
1. Dany is into assholes. Victarion is more her type unfortunately.
2. Jon and Yggrite was the best love story in the series by far, imo, and I would prefer for Jon's love life to be done with after that in this series, or it might retroactively ruin the impact of her death.
 
bengraven

bengraven

Member
Jon probably won't hook up with anyone - I think he'll end up keeping to his vows. Which means killing someone he loves to fulfill a prophecy is spot on his character.

I'm still convinced that if Jon will end up married, it will be to the last person you expect...

- he's always wanted to be the Stark in Winterfell
- he likes redheads...a lot
- he's only her cousin
- they barely mention each other in the books, so you don't know how they feel
- Ned married someone he didn't want to, but ended up falling for her after a few years


Sansa
 
C

Count of Monte Sawed-Off

un33dab@dpu$$y
bengraven said:
Jon probably won't hook up with anyone - I think he'll end up keeping to his vows. Which means killing someone he loves to fulfill a prophecy is spot on his character.

I'm still convinced that if Jon will end up married, it will be to the last person you expect...

- he's always wanted to be the Stark in Winterfell
- he likes redheads...a lot
- he's only her cousin
- they barely mention each other in the books, so you don't know how they feel
- Ned married someone he didn't want to, but ended up falling for her after a few years


Sansa
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That's actually my guess too if Jon hooks up with anyone else. It'd be too funny and perfect.
 
bengraven

bengraven

Member
Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:
That's actually my guess too if Jon hooks up with anyone else. It'd be too funny and perfect.
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I used to have a long write-up of how it makes sense, but I got laughed at so many times I stopped posting it and forgot. lol

The biggest thing is that he keeps getting these redheads hooked on him and it just so happens that he has a hot redhead foster sister who's the heir to his home and that they never mention each other. I think Sansa once says "oh you're a bastard like my brother Jon". That's it.

It would be funny to find that she secretly had a weird crush on him or something. But since she's obsessed with princes, I doubt it ever crossed her mind and I'm just shipping.
 
S

Supermanisdead

Member
Aww no, gross. They were still raised as siblings :\

I think Sansa will end up really liking this Harry the Heir guy whenever she gets around to marrying him and she'll make her own plans to get Littlefinger offed.
 
A

apana

Member
You know guys just cause the Targaryens marry their siblings it doesn't actually make it alright. Jon and Sansa, that's like one step away from Arya and Bran shipping.
 
B

Basileus777

Member
apana said:
You know guys just cause the Targaryens marry their siblings it doesn't actually make it alright. Jon and Sansa, that's like one step away from Arya and Bran shipping.
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Well they're probably only cousins by blood, and it isn't that strange for cousins to marry in Westeros.

But yeah, they still grew up as siblings.
 
bengraven

bengraven

Member
apana said:
You know guys just cause the Targaryens marry their siblings it doesn't actually make it alright. Jon and Sansa, that's like one step away from Arya and Bran shipping.
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Jon's a loner who really only bonded with the other kids and Sansa disregards him like her mother did, so it's not completely out of the question. I doubt they had much love once they started going through puberty. They were just THERE.

And I'm not shipping - I would prefer it not happen at all, but I think it might be set up to happen.
 
A

apana

Member
bengraven said:
I used to have a long write-up of how it makes sense, but I got laughed at so many times I stopped posting it and forgot. lol

The biggest thing is that he keeps getting these redheads hooked on him and it just so happens that he has a hot redhead foster sister who's the heir to his home and that they never mention each other. I think Sansa once says "oh you're a bastard like my brother Jon". That's it.

It would be funny to find that she secretly had a weird crush on him or something. But since she's obsessed with princes, I doubt it ever crossed her mind and I'm just shipping.
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bengraven said:
Jon's a loner who really only bonded with the other kids and Sansa disregards him like her mother did, so it's not completely out of the question. I doubt they had much love once they started going through puberty. They were just THERE.

And I'm not shipping - I would prefer it not happen at all, but I think it might be set up to happen.
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Perhaps I am reading it wrong but I thought you were. Anyways I just use shipping as a catch all term for theoretical pairings. If George did this I may have to write him a very nasty letter. I don't think it will happen but if she did have a secret crush on him all this time this gif becomes kind of creepy:

sansaonly.gif
 
A

Altazor

Member
ultron87 said:
It is going to be really silly looking on the show when they randomly cut to Pyke and Balon trips off a bridge.
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it's not really "tripping", isn't it? It was implied that a Faceless Man did it, so they can show Balon in the bridge, thinking or some shit and then show a FM near him, standing there, menacing.

or some shit like that.
 
C

Count of Monte Sawed-Off

un33dab@dpu$$y
bengraven said:
I used to have a long write-up of how it makes sense, but I got laughed at so many times I stopped posting it and forgot. lol

The biggest thing is that he keeps getting these redheads hooked on him and it just so happens that he has a hot redhead foster sister who's the heir to his home and that they never mention each other. I think Sansa once says "oh you're a bastard like my brother Jon". That's it.

It would be funny to find that she secretly had a weird crush on him or something. But since she's obsessed with princes, I doubt it ever crossed her mind and I'm just shipping.
Click to expand...

In AFFC she thinks about being a bastard and how much she would like to see Jon. Of course at the time he's the only person even slightly related to her that she thinks is still alive.
 
V

velvet_nitemare

Member
Does it now become cannon that Mel nailed Stannis? I thought it was pretty much given after aDWD, but i've seen people still doubt it. If the show got input from GRRM, then i'd say it's pretty much fact now.
 
J

jett

D-Member
So what is the show pretending to do with Craster? You guys think they're just gonna end that character right there and then? They know he's willfully helping the Others, Mormont can't let that pass.
 
V

velvet_nitemare

Member
jett said:
So what is the show pretending to do with Craster? You guys think they're just gonna end that character right there and then? They know he's willfully helping the Others, Mormont can't let that pass.
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They all knew, even Mormont. He's gonna kick them out and that'll be that until they come back and slit his throat for him.
 
Pollux

Pollux

Member
jett said:
So what is the show pretending to do with Craster? You guys think they're just gonna end that character right there and then? They know he's willfully helping the Others, Mormont can't let that pass.
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I think that fight is going to happen next episode, TBH.
 
P

Pkaz01

Member
I don't think they have time to bump up that fight scene unless they plan on delaying something from acok into season 3. I'm with the he is going to kick them out corner.
 
P

Pkaz01

Member
Basileus777 said:
Will Renly even be in more than 2 or 3 episodes?
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he dies in episode 4 which means he will be heavily featured in both of them. They still have to introduce him and kill him, show tryion being a boss in kings landing and making the marriage offers and tricking pycelle, Arya saving jaqen and getting caught, Dany and her story, and Theon in the iron islands. I can see it being put in but it would rush a lot of things unnecessarily imo.
 
B

Basileus777

Member
Pkaz01 said:
he dies in episode 4 which means he will be heavily featured in both of them. They still have to introduce him and kill him, show tryion being a boss in kings landing and making the marriage offers and tricking pycelle, Arya saving jaqen and getting caught, Dany and her story, and Theon in the iron islands. I just don't see how they can fit in a jon battle and explanation.
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I don't think they'll do it either, but I don't see how it'd require all that much screen time. Craster getting killed doesn't take that long, not when they've already spent a good amount of time setting up the conflict with him.
 
bengraven

bengraven

Member
For a dead thread, there's a lot to talk about still.

apana said:
Perhaps I am reading it wrong but I thought you were. Anyways I just use shipping as a catch all term for theoretical pairings. If George did this I may have to write him a very nasty letter. I don't think it will happen but if she did have a secret crush on him all this time this gif becomes kind of creepy:
Click to expand...

Well when I said "shipping" the first time, I was being sarcastic. I just never wrote out a ":p" emoticon.


jett said:
So what is the show pretending to do with Craster? You guys think they're just gonna end that character right there and then? They know he's willfully helping the Others, Mormont can't let that pass.
Click to expand...

The preview makes it seem like Mormont's going to basically let it slide and leave right away so as not to upset Crastor more. He's an honorable man and I think he knows they may have to stop back there again someday.

And when they do, the scene with the horny Watchmen is going to be more tense.
 
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