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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

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This might be controversial, but I think they should kill off Theon in this season just to save us from the "Reek reek, it rhymes with meek" nonsense. Worst parts of the series for me, along with everything Dany does after Qarth.

What?

Theon/Reek's stuff was some of the best in ADWD. His whole character arc is probably one of the more interesting ones in the books, especially when he turns up again in ADWD as such a grotesque creature. I hated him after ACOK for screwing over Winterfell but holy shit, the stuff Ramsay does to him? The fact he has those moments of remorse and seems to be trying to redeem himself a little bit made me actually feel a little sympathy for him.
 

chiQ

Member
I suffer this terrible torment of utterly loving the idea of Dany and her dragons, but finding her chapters painfully boring, and where they're not boring irritating. I can see her story arc is headed somewhere big, but I just want her to die in a fire, literally. I don't enjoy reading about her at all.

Tyrion, Jon, Arya, Sam, Jaime, and Brienne rock. Theon, Asha, and the rest I can appreciate, but don't adore. Dany I actively dislike. It rather annoys me, because I want to like her. It's not even like Cercei, who I love to hate, but really enjoy reading about :(
 

q_q

Member
I suffer this terrible torment of utterly loving the idea of Dany and her dragons, but finding her chapters painfully boring, and where they're not boring irritating. I can see her story arc is headed somewhere big, but I just want her to die in a fire, literally. I don't enjoy reading about her at all.

Tyrion, Jon, Arya, Sam, Jaime, and Brienne rock. Theon, Asha, and the rest I can appreciate, but don't adore. Dany I actively dislike. It rather annoys me, because I want to like her. It's not even like Cercei, who I love to hate, but really enjoy reading about :(

I think it's probably because her chapters are always such a let down because she doesn't do anything. I loved her story in GoT and SoS, but other than that all she does is walk through a desert. Her ADWD chapters were dreadful. I understand what GRRM is going for with her story, but it's just so painfully boring because we as readers don't really care. We'd all much rather see her go to Westeros, so her chapters become even more irritating and boring than they really are.
 

jett

D-Member
Theon was far and away the best character in ADWD. I gotta give credit to GRRM for somehow making that piece of shit sympathetic, too. :p
 

Altazor

Member
I suffer this terrible torment of utterly loving the idea of Dany and her dragons, but finding her chapters painfully boring, and where they're not boring irritating. I can see her story arc is headed somewhere big, but I just want her to die in a fire, literally. I don't enjoy reading about her at all.

Tyrion, Jon, Arya, Sam, Jaime, and Brienne rock. Theon, Asha, and the rest I can appreciate, but don't adore. Dany I actively dislike. It rather annoys me, because I want to like her. It's not even like Cercei, who I love to hate, but really enjoy reading about :(

as the meme says, "I know that feel bro". I've always found Daenerys' chapters really boring, save for notable exceptions (the House of the Undying, some of her chapters when she's burning shit up in the Slavers Cities)... the Meereen ones were the lowest point. I didn't really care about Hazdhar lo Pahzak or Reznor no Reznor or whatever, and I hated Daario. Worst character in the series.

Hopefully her chapters with the khalasar in TWOW will be better.
 

chiQ

Member
I think it's probably because her chapters are always such a let down because she doesn't do anything. I loved her story in GoT and SoS, but other than that all she does is walk through a desert. Her ADWD chapters were dreadful. I understand what GRRM is going for with her story, but it's just so painfully boring because we as readers don't really care. We'd all much rather see her go to Westeros, so her chapters become even more irritating and boring than they really are.

Yeah, you've probably nailed it there. You too, Altazor. Maybe we should start a club.

Interesting (to me anyway) aside: I re-read the books and noticed a huge amount that I missed the first time through. I think I need to read them a third time, soon. Oh so hooked...
 

apana

Member
A lot of the Dany chapters won't be so bad on television because you won't have to read the descriptions of the people, objects, and buildings. You will just get to see them on screen.
 

Pkaz01

Member
Theon was far and away the best character in ADWD. I gotta give credit to GRRM for somehow making that piece of shit sympathetic, too. :p

Yea Theon had the best/most interesting chapters. Manderly was the MVP of that book though.
 

bengraven

Member
Theon was far and away the best character in ADWD. I gotta give credit to GRRM for somehow making that piece of shit sympathetic, too. :p

He basically won me over, despite having the blacksmith killed and letting Ramsay flay the children.

Way I figure, losing his cock was punishment enough.
 

q_q

Member
A lot of the Dany chapters won't be so bad on television because you won't have to read the descriptions of the people, objects, and buildings. You will just get to see them on screen.

This is true as well. I wonder though if by the time we get into the fourth and fifth seasons and Dany's still not in Westeros, if non book readers will start to get fed up like we are. That is if any of them continue to watch the show after the Red Wedding.
 

Puddles

Banned
ASOS: 1000 pages, needs 20 episodes.

AFFC/ADWD: 2000 pages, 10 episodes.

Just shows how much focus GRRM lost since 2000.
 

KingK

Member
This might be controversial, but I think they should kill off Theon in this season just to save us from the "Reek reek, it rhymes with meek" nonsense. Worst parts of the series for me, along with everything Dany does after Qarth.

This is fucking insane. Theon's arc in ADWD is, quite possibly, the best in the entire series. Arya in book 2/3 is the only thing that comes close, really.
 

KingK

Member
Regarding TV seasons, make Storm 2 complete seasons. End season 3 close to where the book was split in the UK, maybe a bit past that for some characters, but before the Red Wedding. Have the Red Wedding be, like, episode 4 or 5 of season 4 and maybe move up some of the Iron Islands stuff and show Theon being tortured in season 4.

Then AFFC/ADWD can easily be condensed into one season. Trim Tyrion, Dany, and Brienne a lot, and Jon a little. Possibly leave out Dorne entirely, if necessary. Just have Quentyn explain their motives to Dany when he arrives there. None of the characters in these books have arcs that need 2 seasons, so one should be fine.

Then, if GRRM can get his ass to writing and get the last two books out in a timely manner (lol) they could finish the series in 7 seasons. Then again, I have a feeling that books 6 and 7 will need to be about as packed as Storm to wrap up the series, so I don't know if they would be able to do those in one season each (assuming they even get that far, which I doubt).

I'm feeling self-conscious right now. Maybe I need to reread it :/

heh, maybe you do. Theon was my 2nd least favorite POV character going into the book. I heard he had the most chapters other than Jon/Dany/Tyrion and I thought "shit, that's gonna suck." But it ended up blowing me away.
 

Puddles

Banned
Five minutes of screentime in S02E02 and I already hate this incarnation of Balon Greyjoy.

Worst character in the series.
 

bengraven

Member
How about making the three books four seasons? Then just condense the last two books into one longer season (12-14 episodes).

Five minutes of screentime in S02E02 and I already hate this incarnation of Balon Greyjoy.

Worst character in the series.

I was just thinking the opposite. That was one of my favorite scenes in the books and it was done fantastically on the show. I liked him better than my notions of the character in the book.

Sad that this is, what, his only scene? Isn't that scene with Theon the only time you ever see him in the novels? haha, I just realized that. Next Theon chapter and he's fighting men on the Stony Shore I believe and finds out his dad "fell" from a bridge.
 

jett

D-Member
ASOS: 1000 pages, needs 20 episodes.

AFFC/ADWD: 2000 pages, 10 episodes.

Just shows how much focus GRRM lost since 2000.

It's clear GRRM never really knew what to do with the series after ASOS. Throwing away over a year's worth of material of his "five-year gap" is proof enough. Nevermind releasing a "parallel novel" to AFFC six years later, lolz.
 

Veelk

Banned
It's clear GRRM never really knew what to do with the series after ASOS. Throwing away over a year's worth of material of his "five-year gap" is proof enough. Nevermind releasing a "parallel novel" to AFFC six years later, lolz.

Actually, he has a general outline of whats going to happen and he threw the the 5 year timeskip thing away because it resulted in way too many flashbacks happening in present time, completely throwing off the pacing of the book. Unless your suggesting he's lying, but that's pure speculation unless you have some definitive evidence.
 

KingK

Member
How about making the three books four seasons? Then just condense the last two books into one longer season (12-14 episodes).

The problem with that is that every single final character chapter in Storm just screams "season finale." If you had Arya approaching the ship with her coin, Tyrion killing Tywin and escaping with Varys, Jon being named Lord Commander, Littlefinger pushing Lysa out the Moon Door, Bran accompanying Coldhands through the gate to the other side of the Wall, and the UnCat reveal in the middle of a season, then followed it up with Brienne staring her trek through the Riverlands, the pacing would feel ridiculously bad.
 

Pkaz01

Member
Five minutes of screentime in S02E02 and I already hate this incarnation of Balon Greyjoy.

Worst character in the series.

I wonder how they will handle his death. In the books how do we find out about it. I remember the old dwarf lady Arya comes across saying a faceless man killed him but when is it officially confirmed?
 

Dresden

Member
Actually, he has a general outline of whats going to happen and he threw the the 5 year timeskip thing away because it resulted in way too many flashbacks happening in present time, completely throwing off the pacing of the book. Unless your suggesting he's lying, but that's pure speculation unless you have some definitive evidence.

I'd have preferred a 5 year timeskip with copious amounts of flashbacks.
 

Veelk

Banned
I'd have preferred a 5 year timeskip with copious amounts of flashbacks.

I don't think you have enough information, particularly the unwritten/deleted book in question, to make that claim. For all anyone knows, it could be much worse than than what we have now.
 

Dresden

Member
I don't think you have enough information, particularly the unwritten/deleted book in question, to make that claim. For all anyone knows, it could be much worse than than what we have now.

I'll skip reading about Daario's wondrous dick, tyvm
 

Veelk

Banned
I'll skip reading about Daario's wondrous dick, tyvm

See? What makes you say that isn't EXACTLY what Dany would flashback to? Your imagining the new version would be better, not considering the reality that you can't presume on such things.
 

Dresden

Member
See? What makes you say that isn't EXACTLY what Dany would flashback to? Your imagining the new version would be better, not considering the reality that you can't presume on such things.

I'll presume all I want, bro. Tyrion fucks Dany and the Others get melted by the heat of Lannister fire. The end.
 

ZeroRay

Member
This is an epic troll by GRRM.

Y'all hate Dany because you're supposed to, as she's going to be the final villain of the series.
 

Dresden

Member
No need to even read the books then.

Oh, and make sure Joffrey is resurrected so he can be killed again.

I think you're ridiculous because you act as if speculation requires proof of concept, or guarantee of quality, before it can be indulged.
 

stupei

Member
The problem with Dany is she can't show up in Westeros until George is done playing with all his other toys -- and killing all the Starks -- so her chapters end up kind of like a big budget basic cable show that is highly aware of when sweeps week falls. When something actually goes down, it goes big, but in the meantime it's all just filler to make it through the calendar.
 

Veelk

Banned
I think you're ridiculous because you act as if speculation requires proof of concept, or guarantee of quality, before it can be indulged.

Posts like "GRRM obviously had no idea what to do with the series after SoS." or "I'd prefer the timeskip version" seem pretty damn definitive rather than speculative, which is why I required proof for those. And if we're going to be speculating on interesting things that could happen, what the 5 year timeskip book would work out like is small potatoes. Go big. Like, what if Tyrion ascended into the heavens and became an Old God of the North?
 

Wray

Member
Yep. I agree with this. They should just have Book 3 take up two entire seasons, with the Red Wedding happening near the middle of season 4. Rushing to get the Red Wedding into the end of season 3 would put off viewers and force them to cut a lot of stuff.

Plus then the rest of Storm would only be like half a season at most in season 4 and the second half would be the start of AFFC/ADWD, which would just be really, really bad pacing. All of the ending parts of ASOS are perfect for season endings. Maybe they could end season 3 with Jon escaping from the Wildlings and running for the Wall and Dany sacking Astapor.

I disagree with putting the Red Wedding in Season 4. Ending S3 with the Red Wedding is the perfect thing to do. It doesnt even have the be the last scene or anything. They can easily do it in Ep9 if they wanted. Remember, in S3 they are likely going to introduce Edmure and the Tullys, and almost certainly introduce "Reek". Roose and some of the Freys will have already been introduced, which lets the writers spend all of Season 3 building up the Boltons, Freys, and Tullys.

In Storm of Swords, the Red Wedding is basically the culmination of their story arcs for that book. Even more so, when you consider that "Reeks" betrayal and taking of Winterfell is likely getting pushed back into S3. Juxtaposing Reek and the Red Wedding together in the same episode, or one in 9 and the other in 10, would be a great 1-2 punch and perfect ending to those story arcs that season.

As for Season 4, I do think it will end with most of the major things from the book. However, some storylines can extend further into Dance/Feast material and end there. Namely Jon's stuff.

- I think Joffrey dying will happen early in S4 obviously. In S2, we know Renly is dying in Ep4, which means the writers aren't afraid to do big death scenes early into a season. I think Joffrey dying in Ep3 or 4 would work perfect, and set up the rest of the Kings Landing stuff that season nicely.

- I think all of the Ironborn stuff from Feast will be moved up to S4, since its technically happening around the same time as the later events of Storm. Ending with the Kingsmoot or Vic leaving to capture Dany would be a good ending point.

- I think S3 will focus entirely on Astapor for Dany, while S4 will be all about her taking Mereen. Possibly even introducing some of the nobles like Hizdahr or Skahaz from Dance early to build them up for all the political Mereen shit that will likely be S5. I think Yunkai will be cut and the events there merged with Mereen.

- I think S3 will end with Ygritte dying and the main Battle at the Wall will be in the first half of S4, which lets Stannis get introduced earlier that season. I think they'll end S4 with Jon beheading Janos Slynt or letting the wildings through the Wall. That lets them move up 2-3 chapters from Dance to help fill out Season 4.

- I think Theon will be spend most of Season 3 holding Winterfell and interacting with Reek and Asha. I think the looming threat of Rodrick retaking Winterfell will be a big plotline that season for Theon, ultimately culminating with Rodricks death and Theon's capture by Reek.

Then early S4 stuff will be Theon in captivity, possibly showing his escape attempt and Kyra's (Maybe they'll use Ros for this lol) death. They can also move up a few Dance chapters and go up until Moat Cailin and end that plotline with Ramsay skinning all the Ironborn perhaps.

- Tyrion kills Tywin in Ep9 and in Ep10 he has a scene or two escaping on a boat, or already on the boat getting drunk, which would be part of Ch1 from Dance.

- Doing the Red Viper vs Mountain around Ep6 or 7 sounds about right. I do think they will hold off introducing Red Viper until early in S4 though.

- The Lysa Reveal and Moon Door stuff should be Ep10, with the Undead Cat reveal being the final scene of S4.

- Between moving up the Ironborn stuff from Feast and a few chapters from Dance, pushing back all of the Theon/Reek stuff to S3, and filling out the rest of the episodes with new scenes and possibly a flashback or two, they should be able to nicely do Storm of Swords into two seasons of 10 episodes.



Feast and DWD alone need to be 2 seasons that cross over with each other.

Feast and Dance can easily be done in 10 episodes. There isnt a single story arc in either book that couldnt be done in like 7-8 episodes. There are alot of POV's, but many of those only have 4 or less chapters each. A few with only 1 chapter if I remember. Plus, if you move up the Ironborn stuff from Feast and a handful of Dance chapters like I outlined above into S4, it gets alot easier.

If anything, I think you'll see a couple chapters from Winds moved up to S5 to give those story arcs a proper ending. I have a feeling that Winds will be long and very dense, and may need two seasons instead.
 

q_q

Member
I have to admit, Theon's chapters in ADWD literally made me cringe. I can usually handle most forms of physical violence or torture in books or movies or shows like this. But that level of psychological terror and domination made me sit back and just go 'damn...'
 

Tacitus_

Member
Ramsay is going to fuck a girl, and he asks Theon to "warm her up" for him. Theon says something like "But my lord, I have no...", and Ramsay tells him to use his tongue.

He also could've meant to say "I have no right", but then again this is Ramsay so he probably flayed his dick.
Yowch.
 

Emerson

May contain jokes =>
I disagree with putting the Red Wedding in Season 4. Ending S3 with the Red Wedding is the perfect thing to do. It doesnt even have the be the last scene or anything. They can easily do it in Ep9 if they wanted. Remember, in S3 they are likely going to introduce Edmure and the Tullys, and almost certainly introduce "Reek". Roose and some of the Freys will have already been introduced, which lets the writers spend all of Season 3 building up the Boltons, Freys, and Tullys.

In Storm of Swords, the Red Wedding is basically the culmination of their story arcs for that book. Even more so, when you consider that "Reeks" betrayal and taking of Winterfell is likely getting pushed back into S3. Juxtaposing Reek and the Red Wedding together in the same episode, or one in 9 and the other in 10, would be a great 1-2 punch and perfect ending to those story arcs that season.

As for Season 4, I do think it will end with most of the major things from the book. However, some storylines can extend further into Dance/Feast material and end there. Namely Jon's stuff.

- I think Joffrey dying will happen early in S4 obviously. In S2, we know Renly is dying in Ep4, which means the writers aren't afraid to do big death scenes early into a season. I think Joffrey dying in Ep3 or 4 would work perfect, and set up the rest of the Kings Landing stuff that season nicely.

- I think all of the Ironborn stuff from Feast will be moved up to S4, since its technically happening around the same time as the later events of Storm. Ending with the Kingsmoot or Vic leaving to capture Dany would be a good ending point.

- I think S3 will focus entirely on Astapor for Dany, while S4 will be all about her taking Mereen. Possibly even introducing some of the nobles like Hizdahr or Skahaz from Dance early to build them up for all the political Mereen shit that will likely be S5. I think Yunkai will be cut and the events there merged with Mereen.

- I think S3 will end with Ygritte dying and the main Battle at the Wall will be in the first half of S4, which lets Stannis get introduced earlier that season. I think they'll end S4 with Jon beheading Janos Slynt or letting the wildings through the Wall. That lets them move up 2-3 chapters from Dance to help fill out Season 4.

- I think Theon will be spend most of Season 3 holding Winterfell and interacting with Reek and Asha. I think the looming threat of Rodrick retaking Winterfell will be a big plotline that season for Theon, ultimately culminating with Rodricks death and Theon's capture by Reek.

Then early S4 stuff will be Theon in captivity, possibly showing his escape attempt and Kyra's (Maybe they'll use Ros for this lol) death. They can also move up a few Dance chapters and go up until Moat Cailin and end that plotline with Ramsay skinning all the Ironborn perhaps.

- Tyrion kills Tywin in Ep9 and in Ep10 he has a scene or two escaping on a boat, or already on the boat getting drunk, which would be part of Ch1 from Dance.

- Doing the Red Viper vs Mountain around Ep6 or 7 sounds about right. I do think they will hold off introducing Red Viper until early in S4 though.

- The Lysa Reveal and Moon Door stuff should be Ep10, with the Undead Cat reveal being the final scene of S4.

- Between moving up the Ironborn stuff from Feast and a few chapters from Dance, pushing back all of the Theon/Reek stuff to S3, and filling out the rest of the episodes with new scenes and possibly a flashback or two, they should be able to nicely do Storm of Swords into two seasons of 10 episodes.





Feast and Dance can easily be done in 10 episodes. There isnt a single story arc in either book that couldnt be done in like 7-8 episodes. There are alot of POV's, but many of those only have 4 or less chapters each. A few with only 1 chapter if I remember. Plus, if you move up the Ironborn stuff from Feast and a handful of Dance chapters like I outlined above into S4, it gets alot easier.

If anything, I think you'll see a couple chapters from Winds moved up to S5 to give those story arcs a proper ending. I have a feeling that Winds will be long and very dense, and may need two seasons instead.

Why do we still think the Theon Winterfell stuff is getting pushed back when we've seen a screencap of "dead" Bran and Rickon already? Unless I'm missing something.
 

Azrael

Member
It could be done. ADWD has fat that needs to be trimmed for the television show, AFFC not so much.

If the series gets to a fifth season, the only story arcs from Feast I would expect to be adapted relatively intact are Arya and Cersei's chapters and maybe the Kingsmoot, which could be pushed up to season 4. Jaime and Sansa's arcs will have to be rewritten because their chapters are boring as hell, but they can't let Aidan Gillen and NCW go to waste. The Dorne, Brienne, and Sam chapters will be gutted.
 

Apath

Member
Ramsay is going to fuck a girl, and he asks Theon to "warm her up" for him. Theon says something like "But my lord, I have no...", and Ramsay tells him to use his tongue.
=[

If the series gets to a fifth season, the only story arcs from Feast I would expect to be adapted relatively intact are Arya and Cersei's chapters and maybe the Kingsmoot, which could be pushed up to season 4. Jaime and Sansa's arcs will have to be rewritten because their chapters are boring as hell, but they can't let Aidan Gillen and NCW go to waste. The Dorne, Brienne, and Sam chapters will be gutted.
I'm kind of hoping the show will branch off further from the books by then. I mean, I really enjoy seeing the books represented in visual form on the show, but it also sometimes hurts my viewing experience to be constantly (subconsciously) comparing everything to the books -- though I've kind of gotten over that by now. I just wouldn't mind the series taking more liberties and positioning its plot away from where the books are heading.
 

bengraven

Member
I'm not even trying to think about how they're going to split it up now. I'm so damn confused and I'm not getting paid to split it up and write it. So I'll let them do the work. :p


In fairness, he has fucked quite a bit. Some random tavern girl or a certain captain's daughter are sure to have his bastards in their belly.
 
I just wouldn't mind the series taking more liberties and positioning its plot away from where the books are heading.

Do you mean you'd rather they change the core storyline or simply cut and edit side-stories?

If it's the former [and the wording implies it is] I highly disagree, as we don't know how everything is going to tie together in the end. Especially as episode one of the new season has already shown what happens when the writers attempt to create their own scenes out of context of the novels [the Littlefinger - Cerci scene being perhaps the worst in the episode and completely out of character / badly written].

Either way the show helps sell the novels and vice-versa - the two work in tandem to create this franchise. It's highly unlikely HBO, or GRRM, would allow any great deviation from the source material.
 

Azrael

Member
Why do we still think the Theon Winterfell stuff is getting pushed back when we've seen a screencap of "dead" Bran and Rickon already? Unless I'm missing something.

Mostly wishful thinking that many readers were hoping Ramsay and the Reeds could be introduced in the third season if the sack of Winterfell was pushed back.
 
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