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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

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K

KingK

Member
Vodh said:
I have a question about a particular speculation that's been flying around for some time now (it's about Jon Snow):

Where the hell did people get the idea that Jon is a Targaryen? How does it even remotly make any sense? Even a half-targaryen seems unlikely as hell... So what's the general consensus regarding this speculation, and again where the hell did it come from? To me it seems just insanely ridiculous, but I've only read all the books...
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That theory has been around since the first book. Rhaegar Targaryen had Lyanna Stark for about a year, and the theory is that during that year she got pregnant with Jon and died giving birth to him in the Tower of Joy when Ned found her. In Ned's flashbacks to the ToJ, he finds his sister in a "bed of blood" and she keeps saying "promise me, Ned." The theory is that she had him promise to keep her baby safe. Since Robert wouldn't be too happy about Rhaegar and Lyanna having a son, Ned lied and said he was the father to protect him. The timeline for all of this matches up with Jon's age and there have been other hints dropped throughout the series.
 
V

Vodh

Junior Member
Thanks, the article on the Tower of the Hand is quite good. It would seem that all the evidence hinting Jon being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar comes from the first book, but there seems to be a lot of evidence. Now it actually does make a lot of sense to me, and seems like a really good plot development.
 
C

CrunchyB

Member
SerArthurDayne said:
Consensus is about 95% certain that he is the son of Lyanna Stark (who died in childbirth) and Rhaegar Targaryen
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Very likely a trueborn son as well, Targaryens sometimes took multiple wives. A northern marriage can be done in front of a heart tree, without any other witnesses. Aegon is a fake. So Jon is the rightful heir of the kingdom. Hah!
 
S

SerArthurDayne

Member
Don't see why Aegon has to be a fake. Isn't the only evidence the passage about a Mummer's Dragon? That means nothing. Varys is the Mummer, and Aegon is his dragon. Doesn't mean he is a fake dragon. Plus Aegon is already leagues better than Dany.


Vodh said:
Thanks, the article on the Tower of the Hand is quite good. It would seem that all the evidence hinting Jon being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar comes from the first book, but there seems to be a lot of evidence. Now it actually does make a lot of sense to me, and seems like a really good plot development.
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I have always maintained that if it is not true, it is only because George is pissed that people figure it out too quickly. Howland Reed, perhaps his kids (he tells them stories of the past), Wylla, and perhaps Ashara Dayne (assuming a- she's not dead twist) are probably the only people that know for certain.
 
K

KingK

Member
Yeah, I hope Aegon is real, but either way he's obviously doomed to die. He's got Renly syndrome (he's just too perfect to work out).
 
P

-Pyromaniac-

Member
SerArthurDayne said:
I have always maintained that if it is not true, it is only because George is pissed that people figure it out too quickly. Howland Reed, perhaps his kids (he tells them stories of the past), Wylla, and perhaps Ashara Dayne (assuming a- she's not dead twist) are probably the only people that know for certain.
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it would be a damn shame if he let that get to him, because if he goes through with it I think it makes him look really good, to have laid it out so early in sprinkles of evidence. Quite genius IMO (of course when I say genius I mean that under the assumption that he is able to make it all come together in a good way in the end).
 
Jibbajabbawockky

Jibbajabbawockky

Member
I really hope that Dany dies or otherwise doesn't get the Iron Throne. Let her get to Westeros and all that, but it just feels like ever since Drogo died, she's sort of had a pretty easy go of things, at least compared to most every other character.

Thats sort of why I'd like Aegon to be a legit Targaryen as that would put a serious wrinkle in Dany being the last of the Targaryens. Or have it so her dragons don't necessarily obey her. Maybe Victarion ends up being able to control them with the horn or something.

I just want the plot armor to come off Dany.
 
P

-Pyromaniac-

Member
Jibbajabbawockky said:
I really hope that Dany dies or otherwise doesn't get the Iron Throne. Let her get to Westeros and all that, but it just feels like ever since Drogo died, she's sort of had a pretty easy go of things, at least compared to most every other character.

Thats sort of why I'd like Aegon to be a legit Targaryen as that would put a serious wrinkle in Dany being the last of the Targaryens. Or have it so her dragons don't necessarily obey her. Maybe Victarion ends up being able to control them with the horn or something.

I just want the plot armor to come off Dany.
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I kind of enjoy that in a weird way. I like the idea of so many people going through so damn much to get to the throne, when instead it's destined to go to someone that isn't amongst them at all, at least for the majority of the time.
 
K

Killzig

Member
Jibbajabbawockky said:
I really hope that Dany dies or otherwise doesn't get the Iron Throne. Let her get to Westeros and all that, but it just feels like ever since Drogo died, she's sort of had a pretty easy go of things, at least compared to most every other character.

Thats sort of why I'd like Aegon to be a legit Targaryen as that would put a serious wrinkle in Dany being the last of the Targaryens. Or have it so her dragons don't necessarily obey her. Maybe Victarion ends up being able to control them with the horn or something.

I just want the plot armor to come off Dany.
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I don't know if I agree that Dany has had an easy time of things. She lost her child, her brother (who admittedly a total dick was still the only family she'd really known), and her husband (and his army). I disliked the Meereen chapters as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't say Dany has come through unscathed. I'm more annoyed by Jaime Lannister, maybe it's because so many of his chapters were spent in the company of Briezzzzzz....
 
V

Vodh

Junior Member
Victarion is such a BAMF, the world would explode if he had dragons on top of how badass he already is :D

Also I wonder if the fact that none of the hints from the first book about Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son have made it to the TV series is a hint that this was not the case from the start/GRRM abandoned the idea (whichever would be the case)...

Either way, I really hope he goes back to some of those hints in the future books - it would let me believe that he didn't just abandon this idea. Or, actually, if Jon would really be dead it would be cool too :D


As to 2 more books not being enough - yeah, and if he takes 6 years to write a book from now on, I wonder how many is he gonna be able to cram out...
 
K

KingK

Member
Victarion is gonna die real quick in Winds, bet on it. He's such a goddamn idiot and he's being played by Euron and the Red Priest (Morroqo?). I just want him to live long enough for Tyrion to make fun of his dumb ass to his face.

As for Dany, I really hope she doesn't end up winning the Iron Throne. I'm not sure who I want to rule King's Landing, to be honest, and I don't really care all that much. As long as a Stark rules in Winterfell at the end, and the Freys and Boltons get what's coming to them, I'll be content.
 
S

suzu

Member
I'd like an end where Jon becomes King in the North, and Dany can have the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. If they get stuck together as a couple, I'm gonna be mad. lol.
 
S

SerArthurDayne

Member
But what about Rickon, the least of the Starks? Bran is busy being a magician, so I imagine he can't be King.

Jon's just going to make sure he never gets off of that island.
 
V

Vodh

Junior Member
KingK said:
Victarion is gonna die real quick in Winds, bet on it. He's such a goddamn idiot and he's being played by Euron and the Red Priest (Morroqo?). I just want him to live long enough for Tyrion to make fun of his dumb ass to his face.
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That would be Tyrion's last words.

Victarion is a 'dumb idiot' who fights sea battles in a full motherfucking plate armor because fuck you. That scene alone is what bought me, that and the fact he has yet to disappoint me. We can never have too much badassery.
 
K

KingK

Member
Vodh said:
That would be Tyrion's last words.

Victarion is a 'dumb idiot' who fights sea battles in a full motherfucking plate armor because fuck you. That scene alone is what bought me, that and the fact he has yet to disappoint me. We can never have too much badassery.
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I enjoy Victarion and his chapters for what they are, but the character is terribly boring when he's not fighting people. He's one of the most one-dimensional characters in the series. He's the most generic "yaaarrrr, I'm a Viking!" character imaginable and I would hate for him to end up playing a larger role in the story than he needs to.

Let him do some badass shit in the battle at Mereen, then have some other characters interact with him afterwards for some humorous results, and then promptly have Euron and/or the Red Priest make their moves and get rid of him after he's served his purpose.
 
V

Vodh

Junior Member
KingK said:
I enjoy Victarion and his chapters for what they are, but the character is terribly boring when he's not fighting people. He's one of the most one-dimensional characters in the series. He's the most generic "yaaarrrr, I'm a Viking!" character imaginable and I would hate for him to end up playing a larger role in the story than he needs to.

Let him do some badass shit in the battle at Mereen, then have some other characters interact with him afterwards for some humorous results, and then promptly have Euron and/or the Red Priest make their moves and get rid of him after he's served his purpose.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think I'd be alright with that. That or some actual character development, maybe there's more to him than we've seen so far ;)
 
K

KingK

Member
Vodh said:
Yeah, I think I'd be alright with that. That or some actual character development, maybe there's more to him than we've seen so far ;)
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nah, I doubt there's much more to him. Plus we've already got so many POV characters that GRRM is going to have to start killing off a bunch in Winds, and Vic is a prime candidate for an early death. There's already too many Greyjoy POVs as is. Hopefully Damphair dies ASAP as well. He's easily the most boring piece of shit in the series.

I am really interested in what Euron has been planning though. I really do love that guy in a "that's one gloriously evil bastard" kind of way. He's got potential to make an excellent villain.
 
S

Steelyuhas

Member
arglebargle said:
isnt jon ahead of rickon in succession now? he was made a real stark by robb and is older than rickon.
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Assuming that someone ever comes forward with Robb's signed declaration, yes, I believe that Jon Stark is Robb's heir as King in the North.

Robb thought that Bran and Rickon were dead when he did that though, I don't think that changes anything though.

I'm not sure where that puts Rickon though in terms of usefulness though.
 
S

suzu

Member
Either way, Rickon is still a child. So if he becomes King in the end, I suppose somebody will have to be Regent or whatever until he comes of age.

Or maybe Sansa or Arya can become Queen in the North. lawl.
 
V

Vodh

Junior Member
KingK said:
nah, I doubt there's much more to him. Plus we've already got so many POV characters that GRRM is going to have to start killing off a bunch in Winds, and Vic is a prime candidate for an early death. There's already too many Greyjoy POVs as is. Hopefully Damphair dies ASAP as well. He's easily the most boring piece of shit in the series.

I am really interested in what Euron has been planning though. I really do love that guy in a "that's one gloriously evil bastard" kind of way. He's got potential to make an excellent villain.
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Yeah, Euron seems like a guy who has a legitimate shot at messing shit up in the little game of thrones everyone's playing.

And I agree about Damphair. Please become an irony man and just drown.

Wouldn't mind if Theon died too, it alredy felt like we've seen too much of him. Yeah, Ramsay messed him up, yeah, he wasn't ever too strong to begin with, sure, it was creepy for some time, now it's just kind of meh to look at how much he fails.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
I believe Euron is somewhere on Victarion's ship, or even in Meereen already. That entire plan struck me as ridiculous; he knows Victarion, why trust him to bind dragons to himself and then...sail back to Pyke and give them to Euron; it makes no sense. I bet Victarion will get killed shortly after the horn is blown.
 
B

Basileus777

Member
PhoenixDark said:
I believe Euron is somewhere on Victarion's ship, or even in Meereen already. That entire plan struck me as ridiculous; he knows Victarion, why trust him to bind dragons to himself and then...sail back to Pyke and give them to Euron; it makes no sense. I bet Victarion will get killed shortly after the horn is blown.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure the dusky woman is working for Euron and is going to betray Victarion.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
Basileus777 said:
I'm pretty sure the dusky woman is working for Euron and is going to betray Victarion.
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Agreed. She kind of tipped her hand when the red priest showed up and she lost her shit lol; I guess that wasn't apart of the plan.

Assuming the horn does what Euron claims it does, it should bind the two dragons remaining in the city. It's also why I think Dany won't be heading back to Meereen for some time; if she simply kills the Khalasar and flies back to the city, Drogon could be stolen.

I think she'll kill Jhogo, take command of his khalasar, and eventually stumble across the members of her own khalasar who went out searching for her. Just watch, it'll be like 5 chapters : /
 
V

viciouskillersquirrel

Member
I don't get why people who carry on so much about badassery and appear to hold it in the highest regard among virtues can be such huge fans of Victarion. If anything, his backstory reveals a character with a massive inferiority complex when it comes to his older brother, like The Hound 2.0 only with more codependency and cowed obedience.

Think about it, his older brother sexually abused him as a kid, had sex with his wife, stole the kingship from him, sends him half a world away as an errand boy and gives him his cast-off sloppy seconds (the dusky woman) as a gift. That Victarion hasn't killed the guy already when he's a gods damned VIKING speaks volumes about how Euron has made Victarion his little bitch.
 
V

Vodh

Junior Member
viciouskillersquirrel said:
I don't get why people who carry on so much about badassery and appear to hold it in the highest regard among virtues can be such huge fans of Victarion. If anything, his backstory reveals a character with a massive inferiority complex when it comes to his older brother, like The Hound 2.0 only with more codependency and cowed obedience.

Think about it, his older brother sexually abused him as a kid, had sex with his wife, stole the kingship from him, sends him half a world away as an errand boy and gives him his cast-off sloppy seconds (the dusky woman) as a gift. That Victarion hasn't killed the guy already when he's a gods damned VIKING speaks volumes about how Euron has made Victarion his little bitch.
Click to expand...

Sorry, can't hear you over the sound of how awesome that sea battle scene was.

Also, we haven't really seen nearly enough of Euron, he's likely to be a suitable upgrade once Victarion gets what's coming to him.
 
G

gutshot

Member
I was bored the other day so I decided to make an ASOIAF flowchart that tracks the various POVs throughout the series. Thought it might be of some interest to you all. It really gives you a sense of how massive this story has become.

Here is the medium-sized version, click for the huge version.

 
Mattdaddy

Mattdaddy

Gold Member
viciouskillersquirrel said:
I don't get why people who carry on so much about badassery and appear to hold it in the highest regard among virtues can be such huge fans of Victarion. If anything, his backstory reveals a character with a massive inferiority complex when it comes to his older brother, like The Hound 2.0 only with more codependency and cowed obedience.

Think about it, his older brother sexually abused him as a kid, had sex with his wife, stole the kingship from him, sends him half a world away as an errand boy and gives him his cast-off sloppy seconds (the dusky woman) as a gift. That Victarion hasn't killed the guy already when he's a gods damned VIKING speaks volumes about how Euron has made Victarion his little bitch.
Click to expand...

I can't remember exactly but wasn't Victarion setting out to shit all over his brothers plans? Going to take Dany for himself and everything. And he has some fantasies about violently killing Euron, so I'm hoping for an awesome confrontation between the two. I hope Victarion does win, cause like the other guy was saying I love that guy :p

I always like the batshit crazy barbarian characters that are just brawn incarnate. Cnair from Prince of Nothing, Bloody Nine from First Law... all my fave. Even though those guys are much deeper main characters, and Victarion is less fleshed out... still fun stuff.

When he emerges with the Red Priest and with his new flaming hand, then has the sex slaves burned and the maestor thrown overboard to appease the red and drowned gods... lol I think he has finally full-blown snapped. I'm expecting some good shit from him coming up.
 
B

brentech

Member
gutshot said:
I was bored the other day so I decided to make an ASOIAF flowchart that tracks the various POVs throughout the series. Thought it might be of some interest to you all. It really gives you a sense of how massive this story has become.

Here is the medium-sized version, click for the huge version.
Click to expand...

That's pretty cool.

Looks like Samwell is the biggest traveler of them all!
 
L

LuchaShaq

Banned
Vodh said:
I have a question about a particular speculation that's been flying around for some time now (it's about Jon Snow):

Where the hell did people get the idea that Jon is a Targaryen? How does it even remotly make any sense? Even a half-targaryen seems unlikely as hell... So what's the general consensus regarding this speculation, and again where the hell did it come from? To me it seems just insanely ridiculous, but I've only read all the books...
Click to expand...

I would read some of the threads on asoiaf dedicated forums but there is alot of circumstantial proof.

Personally I buy it 100% because it just makes sense to me if you go through the clues.
 
L

LuchaShaq

Banned
KingK said:
As far as saddest, Ygritte's death is the top for me. Her and Jon were the best romance in the series, and it was really tragic.

Also, in Dance when Theon is remembering about Robb in Winterfel and thinking that he should have been with him and died with him.

Most of the big emotional deaths like the Red Wedding filled me with overwhelming rage more so than sadness.
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The red Wedding made me more sad than any other fictional piece of writing/gaming/movie/tv etc. The little clues beforehand in the chapter had me nervous as fuck...no...noonononono (shia/gif) put down book and walk away in disbelief thinking shit is going bad, come back finish the chapter even more stunned than when Ned was killed.

Hell on my 2nd reread I got to the chapter and didn't want to keep going even though I knew it was coming.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
gutshot said:
I was bored the other day so I decided to make an ASOIAF flowchart that tracks the various POVs throughout the series. Thought it might be of some interest to you all. It really gives you a sense of how massive this story has become.

Here is the medium-sized version, click for the huge version.

Click to expand...

I can't wait to get home to check this out in detail ha

"Bored" heh?
 
A

apana

Member
viciouskillersquirrel said:
I don't get why people who carry on so much about badassery and appear to hold it in the highest regard among virtues can be such huge fans of Victarion. If anything, his backstory reveals a character with a massive inferiority complex when it comes to his older brother, like The Hound 2.0 only with more codependency and cowed obedience.

Think about it, his older brother sexually abused him as a kid, had sex with his wife, stole the kingship from him, sends him half a world away as an errand boy and gives him his cast-off sloppy seconds (the dusky woman) as a gift. That Victarion hasn't killed the guy already when he's a gods damned VIKING speaks volumes about how Euron has made Victarion his little bitch.
Click to expand...

That makes Victarion even more badass, he's overcome so many hardships! This is supposed to be a more "realistic" fantasy story and in the real world even the most badass of people have tons of faults and problems. Besides we don't really know much about what happened with his wife and his childhood. We do know however that Euron is fucking crazy and evil so it's no wonder he has fucked up Victarion's life and the lives of many others.
 
Q

q_q

Member
Vodh said:
I have a question about a particular speculation that's been flying around for some time now (it's about Jon Snow):

Where the hell did people get the idea that Jon is a Targaryen? How does it even remotly make any sense? Even a half-targaryen seems unlikely as hell... So what's the general consensus regarding this speculation, and again where the hell did it come from? To me it seems just insanely ridiculous, but I've only read all the books...
Click to expand...

It's not ridiculous at all. I'd say there's just about no way it can really be false, but that's just my opinion.

This is the best analysis of it I've read.

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/jon.html

Edit: Wow beaten, how did I miss that? Well at least it's on the next page now.
 
S

Shamrock7r

Member
Just chiming in to say I started reading the books a few weeks back. Nearing 400 pages on ASoS. Lol. Tyrion and Sansa marrying? I love these books. Can't believe I never read them before the show.
 
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