I had the same thought when warging first came up in the books.
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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
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I had the same thought when warging first came up in the books.
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Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
I don't really care for many of the "guest" point-of-views. In the past, if a character wasn't at a major event we just didn't see it, we heard about it. In the last two books, Martin seemed to want to put the reader at every major event, and in its aftermath.
A character like Areo is the perfect example of the problem with all the new point of views. He is literally there to be a pair of eyes and ears for the reader. We might as well be passively watching the scene for all the input Areo's perspective and actions have on his chapters. It makes the character perspective writing seem a lot more like a gimmick rather than a real strength like it did in GOT through SOS.
As AFFC and ADWD were basically one long setup for whatever is still to come, maybe a lot of my complaints will be defanged once I see how some of these characters ultimately fit into the resolution of some of these threads, but for now it's frustrating.
A character like Areo is the perfect example of the problem with all the new point of views. He is literally there to be a pair of eyes and ears for the reader. We might as well be passively watching the scene for all the input Areo's perspective and actions have on his chapters. It makes the character perspective writing seem a lot more like a gimmick rather than a real strength like it did in GOT through SOS.
As AFFC and ADWD were basically one long setup for whatever is still to come, maybe a lot of my complaints will be defanged once I see how some of these characters ultimately fit into the resolution of some of these threads, but for now it's frustrating.
Am I the only one who wants Stannis to succeed and win the Iron Throne in the end? The dude is a hard ass, but he seems like the most fair and knowledgeable -- he'd be a good king. Daenerys sucks and Jon can keep the wall.
People thought that? It seemed to me like he was doing whatever was necessary.
Stannis seems fair. Unlikable, but just.
Whats wrong with Danny? Actually, I haven't done AFFC, so I guess I shouldn't ask that. But so far she seems like she is learning and improving a lot.
I think you should leave this thread because you can get yourself spoiled on some ADWD-related things... and I think you should head over to the "OK nerds, you win. Song of Ice and Fire is gud." thread, which allows discussion with tagged spoilers from all the books.
In the end it's up to you, though
bodyofanamerican
Member
Team Stannis right here. Can't wait for the almost-happens-but-never-will Davos/Stannis reunion.
She knows absolutely nothing about the seven kingdoms. She wants to rule it because... why exactly? It's kind of more apparent to me in the show, but she just seems like a baby screaming about what is hers "by right". Not to mention she clearly has issues ruling.
I think he'd be a lousy king. His lack of resilience and pleasure in life is precisely the opposite of Robert's strengths and weaknesses. He's just the flipside of the same coin. No, I think a king needs to be flexible, strong, and honourable, and Stannis distinctly lacks the former. He's narrow, bitter, and seriously needs the ruby removed from his butt. The two latest Stark Lords to die would have made a much better kings than any of the stags.
SerArthurDayne
Member
I am team Lord too-Fat, Wyman "Lord Lamprey" AKA "motherfucking cold blooded, Frey eating, badass" Manderly.
How is he not resilient? He's one of the only original survivors of the war of the five kings (EDIT: actually, is he the only survivor? Joffrey, Renly, Robb, KBTW -- not dead but certainly not the king of anything anymore). He's been in countless battles, endured a year long siege, was the only one to answer the Night's Watch's cries for help, etc. I don't see how he doesn't fit your three requirements for a king; he's certainly honorable if anything.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Team Stannis all the way. I don't expect him to live, but I do expect a couple epic moments before he dies.
Can't wait to see how Manderly convinces Stannis that he's on his side lol
Can't wait to see how Manderly convinces Stannis that he's on his side lol
I know many people (me included) have already said it, but still... "the North remembers, and the mummer's farce is almost done" is one of the best lines in the entire fucking saga.
By resilient I don't mean tough. Survival through a war does not a good king make. Look at Robert. He survived and won a lot, and he was an awful king too.
I mean able to go with the flow and adapt. I think I also mean open to new ideas, but that's more intellectual resilience than anything. I think Stannis is pretty crappy at all of that. He's a narrow, inflexible, blinkered man, who just expects everyone to fall into line or he will execute them.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Ha, good to see people in the no-spoilers tv thread realize Dany can't simply waltz to Westeros right away. She has to wait for the dragons to grow
I wonder how the House Of The Undying scene will be handled. It'll be interesting if there's a shot of Rhaegar cradling a black haired baby, calling him the prince who was promised...then edits to a scene of Jon beyond the Wall. I've met one person who suspects Jon isn't Ned's son, and I wonder if more new viewers will start pondering about that.
I wonder how the House Of The Undying scene will be handled. It'll be interesting if there's a shot of Rhaegar cradling a black haired baby, calling him the prince who was promised...then edits to a scene of Jon beyond the Wall. I've met one person who suspects Jon isn't Ned's son, and I wonder if more new viewers will start pondering about that.
See, I disagree. I think his willingness to move to the north and fight off the wildlings, along with his tendencies for leniency goes against that. I'd argue he's a hard and fair man, who doesn't believe he's due more than he deserves, nor anyone else. His biggest weakness, in my opinion, is that nobody will love him. Which is pretty important right now when the realm is in such disarray. The seven kingdoms needs a king who will unite everyone.
SerArthurDayne
Member
Doesn't Donal Noye speak to just that in the books? The first one even? or maybe Clash?
Stannis is Iron, and he will break before he bends, Renly is copper, flashy but empty, and Robert was steel. Unfortunately Robert was on a downward slope ever since Rhaegar took Lyanna, but he was a great soldier and had the potential to be a great king.
Stannis is Iron, and he will break before he bends, Renly is copper, flashy but empty, and Robert was steel. Unfortunately Robert was on a downward slope ever since Rhaegar took Lyanna, but he was a great soldier and had the potential to be a great king.
Cornballer
Member
That's one of the big unknowns for me this season. Very curious to see how it turns out. They've talked a lot about Blackwater and how that's going down, but I can't remember them saying much about the House of the Undying.
Everything that goes on in the House is going determine what the future events of the show will be, so I don't think it'll follow the books 100%.
Curious to see which episode it ends up in. If it's 9, then we'll pretty much get the most spectacular episode in the series by far. Also GRRM would be writing it, which will add another layer of interest.
Curious to see which episode it ends up in. If it's 9, then we'll pretty much get the most spectacular episode in the series by far. Also GRRM would be writing it, which will add another layer of interest.
bodyofanamerican
Member
Foreshadowing? Iron = Iron throne?
Also hasn't he essentially said he doesn't even WANT to be king, he's just doing his duty? That's what I really love about him.
PhoenixDark
Banned
She visits it in episode 7, so next week. I'm assuming that's where the dragons were taken.
bengraven
Member
Mind blown.
In Feast, four warlocks leave Qarth. Euron Greyjoy captures them, kills three and then forces the fourth to teach him black magic.
In Dance, Xaro mentions to Dany in Mereen that four warlocks left Qarth to find her and kill her for what she did at the House. One of the warlocks was Pyat Pree.
So Pyat Pree is teaching Euron black magix. I forgot both those little nuggets.
OH and also, from the NO SPOILER thread:
In Feast, four warlocks leave Qarth. Euron Greyjoy captures them, kills three and then forces the fourth to teach him black magic.
In Dance, Xaro mentions to Dany in Mereen that four warlocks left Qarth to find her and kill her for what she did at the House. One of the warlocks was Pyat Pree.
So Pyat Pree is teaching Euron black magix. I forgot both those little nuggets.
OH and also, from the NO SPOILER thread:
It would be great if the Hound was the one who ended up killing Joffrey
1- I can't believe I didn't notice that :O
2- the NO BOOKS SPOILERS thread is a goldmine
Steelyuhas
Member
I won't even go into the no books thread, I know it's just going to be too good.
I posted this in the show thread earlier and wanted to see what you guys thought:
Next week, Ser Alton will attempt to free Jaime and we know that the attempt will fail. There was a shot from one of the preview trailers this season of a fully armored Robb reaching down and grabbing someone by the neck. You couldn't tell who it was and I was wondering who that could be, but now I think it's probably Alton. Perhaps they will cut him going with Brienne and Jaime and Robb kills (or Grey Wind does for extra awesome) as a result of him attempt to free Jaime.
I think that would be a cool change with no real potential negative impact down the road. (Been disappointed at the underutilization of Robb this season, and this scene would just be fun to have.)
I posted this in the show thread earlier and wanted to see what you guys thought:
Next week, Ser Alton will attempt to free Jaime and we know that the attempt will fail. There was a shot from one of the preview trailers this season of a fully armored Robb reaching down and grabbing someone by the neck. You couldn't tell who it was and I was wondering who that could be, but now I think it's probably Alton. Perhaps they will cut him going with Brienne and Jaime and Robb kills (or Grey Wind does for extra awesome) as a result of him attempt to free Jaime.
I think that would be a cool change with no real potential negative impact down the road. (Been disappointed at the underutilization of Robb this season, and this scene would just be fun to have.)
Actually he killed one and fed him to the others. Speculation is that Pyat Pree was the one.
SerArthurDayne
Member
I read that entire thing about little details you might have missed in Dance, but this is the only thing that just blew my mind.
Not that I couldn't put two and two together, but I didn't even think about it or really notice the reference by Xaro.
Why do people speculate that Pyat is the dead one? Just because he was most likely to piss Euron off?
Another one finally having read all of the books. Feel a relief to actually be able to read all these threads without risking having anything spoilt. Also took time to read through this entire thread before posting... took some time.
Just love to read all the speculations here, reading about something I have missed or haven't thought of while reading etc. Never thought about the R+L=J theory but in hindsight it's very plausible. Also missed Alleras = Sarella.
But how some people missed that Abel was Mance in ADWD. But I guess the same could be said about the two examples above...
Just love to read all the speculations here, reading about something I have missed or haven't thought of while reading etc. Never thought about the R+L=J theory but in hindsight it's very plausible. Also missed Alleras = Sarella.
But how some people missed that Abel was Mance in ADWD. But I guess the same could be said about the two examples above...
But how some people missed that Abel was Mance in ADWD. But I guess the same could be said about the two examples above...
Raises hand...When I finally read that somewhere, I wanted to hit myself.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
Another one finally having read all of the books. Feel a relief to actually be able to read all these threads without risking having anything spoilt. Also took time to read through this entire thread before posting... took some time.
Just love to read all the speculations here, reading about something I have missed or haven't thought of while reading etc. Never thought about the R+L=J theory but in hindsight it's very plausible. Also missed Alleras = Sarella.
But how some people missed that Abel was Mance in ADWD. But I guess the same could be said about the two examples above...
I got Abel as Mance pretty quickly. But missed Sarella and many other things. Like Renly + Loras, and the ability to differentiate the Kettleblacks (which I still can't do).
SerArthurDayne
Member
Totally missed Sarella.
And do the differences between the Kettleblacks even really matter? I think not.
And do the differences between the Kettleblacks even really matter? I think not.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
Just you wait. The entire series is going to hinge on them.
I totally didn't get that Abel=Mance, but once I've read about it it seems so obvious.
About Kettleblacks, I remember that Osmund is in the Kingsguard, but other two - I can't remember who is of the City Watch and who is chained by the Faith. If at least they had different enough names - NO, Osfryd and Osney. Great.
About Kettleblacks, I remember that Osmund is in the Kingsguard, but other two - I can't remember who is of the City Watch and who is chained by the Faith. If at least they had different enough names - NO, Osfryd and Osney. Great.
SerArthurDayne
Member
Yeah, Osmund is the easiest because of Kingsguard.
Osney is the City Watch.
Osfreyd (?) is the least important. He gets locked up with Osmud for fucking Cersei, but I don't think he has done much else.
And Os(?) the dad.
Shit. Just checked, I got Osney and Osfryd backwards.
So Osmund is Kingsguard- in jail by Kevan
Osney killed the high septon, tried to seduce Margaery, and is currently jailed by the Septon
Osfryd- City watch, jailed by Kevan
Osney is the City Watch.
Osfreyd (?) is the least important. He gets locked up with Osmud for fucking Cersei, but I don't think he has done much else.
And Os(?) the dad.
Shit. Just checked, I got Osney and Osfryd backwards.
So Osmund is Kingsguard- in jail by Kevan
Osney killed the high septon, tried to seduce Margaery, and is currently jailed by the Septon
Osfryd- City watch, jailed by Kevan
Some thoughts/theories I recently thought up:
- Mel's (and I suppose most other Red priests') oft-repeated prayer, "The Night is Dark and full of terrors" might be foreshadowing some sort of evil arising out of the Night's Watch, or perhpas an evil that has already arisen (The coup against, and murder of Mormont in ASoS, the murder of Jon in ADWD). Or perhaps it just means that that the Night's Watch is full of terrible people, and should not be trusted, and I can see there being conflict between them and the followers of the Lord of Light in the future.
-Is it possible that Dany is going to begin to exhibit the madness that plagued her father? I mean, generations of inbreeding might have some effect on the mental health of the Targaryen line, and Viseryes wasn't exactly the most mentally stable person.
-The Dragonhorn that Victarion has might be the actual "Horn of Winter" that is said can be used to bring down the wall, since it seems like fire-breathing dragons would be the perfect way to bring down a wall made of ice.
-I feel like Greyscale has a big part to play in the next book. It may be that it is more than just a disease, since the wildlings are obviously spooked by it, not to mention the extremely zombie-ish atmosphere Tyrion's encounter with the Stone men had. Or maybe, more realistically, it will serve as the Westerosi counterpart to the Pale Mare, with it killing off huge amounts of people. I just don't see GRRM spending all that time discussing it, especially in ADWD, without any big plans.
On another note, from the No-Book thread:
- Mel's (and I suppose most other Red priests') oft-repeated prayer, "The Night is Dark and full of terrors" might be foreshadowing some sort of evil arising out of the Night's Watch, or perhpas an evil that has already arisen (The coup against, and murder of Mormont in ASoS, the murder of Jon in ADWD). Or perhaps it just means that that the Night's Watch is full of terrible people, and should not be trusted, and I can see there being conflict between them and the followers of the Lord of Light in the future.
-Is it possible that Dany is going to begin to exhibit the madness that plagued her father? I mean, generations of inbreeding might have some effect on the mental health of the Targaryen line, and Viseryes wasn't exactly the most mentally stable person.
-The Dragonhorn that Victarion has might be the actual "Horn of Winter" that is said can be used to bring down the wall, since it seems like fire-breathing dragons would be the perfect way to bring down a wall made of ice.
-I feel like Greyscale has a big part to play in the next book. It may be that it is more than just a disease, since the wildlings are obviously spooked by it, not to mention the extremely zombie-ish atmosphere Tyrion's encounter with the Stone men had. Or maybe, more realistically, it will serve as the Westerosi counterpart to the Pale Mare, with it killing off huge amounts of people. I just don't see GRRM spending all that time discussing it, especially in ADWD, without any big plans.
On another note, from the No-Book thread:
This is really just the epitome of "Be careful what you wish for".
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
What? I think you're straining a bit too much. People are drawn to the fire at night because it is warm and comforting and it gives off light which keeps animals etc at bay.
That's just a basic tenet of the religion, not a prophecy about the Night's Watch.
It'd be like interpreting "Jesus saves" to be a warning about the Titanic sinking.
I think that was to illustrate that Dany wasn't a raving moron. (She's just a moron.)
It's 700 feet high. That's a lot of ice. It's also magically maintained to some degree. I doubt three dragons would accomplish much against it. I don't think the horn's meant to be figurative.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I don't think the horn will literally crumble the Wall either. I believe it will kill the Wall's defenses though, and allow the Others to pass through it
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
They don't need a horn for that. The Night's Watch will do that all on their own.
bengraven
Member
I'm still kicking myself about that. I don't get how I can see all the little threads that come together in the books, but completely miss this. I was like "oooo, he's someone suspicious, but who is he? Maybe he's a wildling..." and it still didn't click.
I also thought Renly and Loras just really liked to pray as well.
elrechazado
Banned
What's the prophecy about arya confronting some kind of beast in an ice castle or something? I'm probably totally remembering that wrong, but wasn't that a thing?
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
It was about a girl toppling a castle built of snow or something. There's a scene in AFFC where Sansa is building a snow castle in the Eyrie and then it falls over. I think that's what it was.
EDIT:
Sansa and her poison hair net.
Sansa rips apart Robert Aryn's doll in her snow castle.
elrechazado
Banned
I think that's not what I'm remembering, but I could be wrong.
edit:, yeah I found this too. Apparently some dispute about this one. Not sure what I think:
"I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief," the dwarf woman was saying. "I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells. I dreamt of a maid at a feast, with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow." She turned her head sharply and smiled through the gloom, right at Arya. "You cannot hide from me, child. Come closer, now."
Most of her words accurately detail the Red Wedding, from the cacophony of the music and screams, to the bells of Jinglebell. The maid at the feast is Sansa, with the venomous snakes in her hair representing the poison she unwittingly carried in her hair net. The slaying of the giant in the snow castle by Sansa is much disputed, however. We prefer to think that it is a fairly mundane vision of Sansa tearing apart Robert Arryn's giant doll in the castle. However, many think that in fact the snow castle may represent Winterfell and that Sansa will kill Gregor Clegane there. Others have suggested that the stone giant may instead refer to Littlefinger, referencing his grandfather's shield bearing the stony Titan of Braavos.
The main reason we are not firm on our preferred theory is that the latter explanation would fit our interpretation of Bran's dream of the stone giant, if the figure is supposed to have an important impact on Sansa's fate. So far, Gregor Clegane has provided only the most indirect impact on her life, with his role as a primary instigator of the war.
Yea that The night is dark and full of terrors" being somehow connected to the NW seems like a stretch. The upcoming winter and the long night that happens during winter???
Last weeks episode the scene with the Hound just gutting peasants was totally fucking awesome. I had just re-read the chapter where the Mountain fights Obyren? over Elias death... Holy Shit I will literally jizzing my pants if/when that makes it into the show. Also can't wait to see Jamie fight with Brianne. And finally I think after reading everything and really even before that the Cleganes are easily the most boss house in all of Westeros they just fuck shit up wherever they go
Last weeks episode the scene with the Hound just gutting peasants was totally fucking awesome. I had just re-read the chapter where the Mountain fights Obyren? over Elias death... Holy Shit I will literally jizzing my pants if/when that makes it into the show. Also can't wait to see Jamie fight with Brianne. And finally I think after reading everything and really even before that the Cleganes are easily the most boss house in all of Westeros they just fuck shit up wherever they go
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
Oh interesting. It's so awesome that all of these prophecies have a dozen or so possible interpretations.
I can't find any mention of a prophecy featuring an ice beast (or something similar) via google. As far as prophecied beasts/monsters go, there is:
Then there's part of Dany's vision in the House of the Undying
As for this I don't know why they're conflating "the stone giant" and the "giant in a castle of ice," the latter of which for thematic reasons almost certainly has to be Littlefinger.
Which we can safely assume to mean Gregor/"Ser Robert Strong" (funniest naming ever imo).AGOT 161-163 said:
Then there's part of Dany's vision in the House of the Undying
Which is harder to definitively place.ACOK 515-516 said:
Quoted Theory said:
As for this I don't know why they're conflating "the stone giant" and the "giant in a castle of ice," the latter of which for thematic reasons almost certainly has to be Littlefinger.
Last Hearth
Member
The "Night is dark and full of terrors" is IMO a call back to the Long Night and the Others, and the fact that the Red Priests celebrate each morning as the sun rises as a glorious thing and a gift of R'hllor is probably also a call back to the Long Night. Because during that period it was only darkness and people probably thought the sun would never rise again, so they commemorate the Sun finally rising through their religious rituals.
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