Support NeoGAF

[Ikael]

Was Robb's story irrelevant just because he was killed?

Robb didn't even had a single POV chapter. Daenerys had one third of a book devoted to her. Killing her without her making any kind of impact in the main storyline would mean that Martin has yet to grasp the very concept of editing, since Martin would have forced us then to read tons of filler content, Naruto style, while deliberately presenting it as a vital part of the story. Not to mention that Robb was able to severly affect the war in Westeros before his demise. As long as Daenerys plot proves to be vital to the Westeros conflict (either for good or bad, I don't care), I am fine with that.

But It has nothing to do with like or disliking Daenerys, and yes a lot to do with Lost -type of plot - building. Compelling stories rely on much more than "shocking" twists. Hell, even if destroying the reader's expectatives is a Martin's trademark, he can also play extremely well with the whole "and now happens what you are not expecting: the most predictable outcome" card (see also: Barristan the noble hero defeating the treacherous arena gladiator or Jon double - agent adventure with the wildlings yielding good results. What in other fantasy series would seem like a normal, cliched outcome, it is shocking for ASOIAF).

 

[Cornballer]

I read through the Dunk & Egg stories last night. Very enjoyable and it was cool to see all the ties to the main series. Great to get more back story on the Blackfyre's, too, and parts of ADWD make a lot more sense now. Only tough part was sorting out all of the Targaryen's at the beginning.

 

[aceface]

I read through the Dunk & Egg stories last night. Very enjoyable and it was cool to see all the ties to the main series. Great to get more back story on the Blackfyre's, too, and parts of ADWD make a lot more sense now. Only tough part was sorting out all of the Targaryen's at the beginning.

I love the second dunk and egg story, it's one of my favorite things GRRM has ever written. It's awesome seeing a conflict play out between two minor lords, you never see that stuff in the main novels. The first one was also really good but I didn't care for the third as he went back to the tournament setting one too many times I thought. The third one seemed more like an excuse to feature blood raven than anything since he ties in with ADWD.

 

[bengraven]

I read through the Dunk & Egg stories last night. Very enjoyable and it was cool to see all the ties to the main series. Great to get more back story on the Blackfyre's, too, and parts of ADWD make a lot more sense now. Only tough part was sorting out all of the Targaryen's at the beginning.

I've read them twice and looked over the genealogy charts and I'm still completely lost on all the Targs.

I love the second dunk and egg story, it's one of my favorite things GRRM has ever written. It's awesome seeing a conflict play out between two minor lords, you never see that stuff in the main novels. The first one was also really good but I didn't care for the third as he went back to the tournament setting one too many times I thought. The third one seemed more like an excuse to feature blood raven than anything since he ties in with ADWD.

Agreed. It's definitely my favorite of the Dunk stories.

I really felt for Dunk at the end - the marriage was a shock I honestly didn't see coming.

 

[SerArthurDayne]

The Targs are confusing. All you really need to know is that Aegon (Egg) is the unlikely because he was (I think) the fourth son of the fourth son.

He let his kids marry for love, realized it was a mistake, and then forced Aerys (the Mad King) into an unhappy marriage. That, combined with being imprisoned at Duskendale (and probably some incest related genetics- let's be honest) led him to change from a pretty decent guy to a crazy bastard.

Also, one of Egg's sons married a Baratheon, which was the source of Robert's claim to the throne in his Rebellion.

The Blackfyres are a bit more confusing. Baelor was a religous fanatic, locked up his sisters and had no heirs. His uncle takes over when he dies, and his uncle's son is Aegon IV. Aegon has a kid with his cousin (Baelor's sister) who become Daemon Blackfyre. When he dies, Aegon IV legitimizes Daemon. Daemon then tries to claim the throne.

Aegon had a bunch of bastard children. Bittersteel fights with Daemon Blackfyre, while Bloodraven fights with Daeron, the legitimate (through marriage) son of Aegon IV, and (technically) rightful heir.

Daeron is the King during The Hedge Knight, but dead by the time the Mystery Knight rolls around. His son, Baelor, dies in The Hedge Knight. His children (and the king, and apparently lots of others- it was a plague after all) all die in the Spring sickness. That is kind of what sets the path up for Aegon to eventually be king.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

The Targs are confusing. All you really need to know is that Aegon (Egg) is the unlikely because he was (I think) the fourth son of the fourth son.

He let his kids marry for love, realized it was a mistake, and then forced Aerys (the Mad King) into an unhappy marriage. That, combined with being imprisoned at Duskendale (and probably some incest related genetics- let's be honest) led him to change from a pretty decent guy to a crazy bastard.

Also, one Egg's sons married a Baratheon, which was the source of Robert's claim to the throne in his Rebellion.

The Blackfyres are a bit more confusing. Baelor was a religous fanatic, locked up his sisters and had no heirs. His uncle takes over when he dies, and his uncle's son is Aegon IV. Aegon has a kid with his cousin (Baelor's sister) who become Daemon Blackfyre. When he dies, Aegon IV legitimizes Daemon. Daemon then tries to claim the throne.

Aegon had a bunch of bastard children. Bittersteel fights with Daemon Blackfyre, while Bloodraven fights with Daeron, the legitimate (through marriage) son of Aegon IV, and (technically) rightful heir.

Daeron is the King during The Hedge Knight, but dead by the time the Mystery Knight rolls around. His son, Baelor, dies in The Hedge Knight. His children (and the king, and apparently lots of others- it was a plague after all) all die in the Spring sickness. That is kind of what sets the path up for Aegon to eventually be king.

Aerion dies from drinking wildfire which was pretty awesome.

My problem confusion with the Targs comes with the whole Blackfyre Rebellion which you did a pretty good job explaining.

 

[SerArthurDayne]

Yeah, I knew about Aerion, and Aemon obviously.

I didn't remember what happened to Daeron. I figured he just got passed over for being a drunken loser, but no- he caught pox from a whore and died. Went out like a champ, just as he had lived.

I really hope they give some context for How Egg and Duncan die at Summerhall. Because it seems like they died doing something stupid, which seems out of character. Although apparently whatever they did is what woke magic up, somehow.

Dance kind of hints that his children marrying for love was what caused Summerhall to be a problem. So maybe somebody locked them in or something, causing them to burn to death. And Summerhall led to Aerys, which obviously set some things in motion.

Regardless, I imagine it will be many years before we get the story of Summerhall (if ever). I think speculation is that the next story will be at Winterfell, with some Old Nan action.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Yeah, he'll probably only reveal Summerhall in the final Dunk and Egg story which is forever away. Maybe literally.

Dunk may plant his little seeds everywhere if Hodor turns out to be a descendant as well as maybe Brienne.

 

[bengraven]

Yeah, he'll probably only reveal Summerhall in the final Dunk and Egg story which is forever away. Maybe literally.

Dunk may plant his little seeds everywhere if Hodor turns out to be a descendant as well as maybe Brienne.

Well yeah, technically Summerhall would end the Dunk and Egg stories.

I have a feeling he's never going to finish them though. I think he wants to keep them around as insurance in case he's ever in the mood to write an Ice and Fire short story. This would be after he finished the main series (lol I know). So he finishes the series and two years later wants to write about, I don't know, Casterly Rock and so he writes another Dunk story.

Or he could publish the last story around the time of the last book, since I have a feeling he wants the stories to match the theme or location of the current book and I'm sure Summerhall has something to do with the final Ice and Fire novel.


And yeah, I'm guessing Dunk dunks his eggs in a Winterfell girl's mouth this next book and makes Hodor's Nan...

 

[SerArthurDayne]

Well, he wouldn't make Hodor's Nan. She is too old for even that. I'm pretty sure we are going to get a young (!) Nan, and make Hodor's grandmother/father. I get the impression she is older than Walder Frey, so if it takes place three years after the last book Frey would be 7 and I could see her being 16 or so at the time.

 

[Seguin]

The Targs are confusing. All you really need to know is that Aegon (Egg) is the unlikely because he was (I think) the fourth son of the fourth son.

He let his kids marry for love, realized it was a mistake, and then forced Aerys (the Mad King) into an unhappy marriage. That, combined with being imprisoned at Duskendale (and probably some incest related genetics- let's be honest) led him to change from a pretty decent guy to a crazy bastard.

Also, one Egg's sons married a Baratheon, which was the source of Robert's claim to the throne in his Rebellion.

The Blackfyres are a bit more confusing. Baelor was a religous fanatic, locked up his sisters and had no heirs. His uncle takes over when he dies, and his uncle's son is Aegon IV. Aegon has a kid with his cousin (Baelor's sister) who become Daemon Blackfyre. When he dies, Aegon IV legitimizes Daemon. Daemon then tries to claim the throne.

Aegon had a bunch of bastard children. Bittersteel fights with Daemon Blackfyre, while Bloodraven fights with Daeron, the legitimate (through marriage) son of Aegon IV, and (technically) rightful heir.

Daeron is the King during The Hedge Knight, but dead by the time the Mystery Knight rolls around. His son, Baelor, dies in The Hedge Knight. His children (and the king, and apparently lots of others- it was a plague after all) all die in the Spring sickness. That is kind of what sets the path up for Aegon to eventually be king.

I thought the source of Robert's claim was the fact that House Baratheon descended from Aegon's half brother. The more you know!

 

[SerArthurDayne]

My mistake, it was actually a daughter. Which makes the claim considerably weaker, but still good enough.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

Just finished. It feels so weird to be able to highlight spoilers in other threads now.

Can someone link me to a "subtle things / things you might have missed" page?

I made it through the whole series without having anything spoilt, except for, literally only a week ago, accidentally having Dany's flight and Jon's "death" offhandedly spoilt. I got so close.

 

[elrechazado]

I thought the source of Robert's claim was the fact that House Baratheon descended from Aegon's half brother. The more you know!

It's both actually.

 

[RatskyWatsky]

Just finished. It feels so weird to be able to highlight spoilers in other threads now.

Can someone link me to a "subtle things / things you might have missed" page?

I made it through the whole series without having anything spoilt, except for, literally only a week ago, accidentally having Dany's flight and Jon's "death" offhandedly spoilt. I got so close.

Here you go!

 

[Dabookerman]

I dunno if you guys have seen this but there's a irish punk version of The Bear and Maiden Fair.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ0rzsNfmIc

It's FUCKING awesome!!

 

[RatskyWatsky]

I dunno if you guys have seen this but there's a irish punk version of The Bear and Maiden Fair.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ0rzsNfmIc

It's FUCKING awesome!!

It's pretty cool, although I can't understand most of the lyrics. lol

 

[CassSept]

Here you go!

Wow, neato. I'm nearing the end of ADWD (two chapters left) so I'm going to be crossing over to this thread very soon, this list will be interesting.

 

[Cornballer]

I love the second dunk and egg story, it's one of my favorite things GRRM has ever written. It's awesome seeing a conflict play out between two minor lords, you never see that stuff in the main novels. The first one was also really good but I didn't care for the third as he went back to the tournament setting one too many times I thought. The third one seemed more like an excuse to feature blood raven than anything since he ties in with ADWD.

Second one was probably my favorite, as well, for the reasons you listed. I liked the third one, though I feel like the D&E stuff works better on a smaller scale. Would be cool to read more of these from time to time, though I hope his focus is on the main series.

The Targs are confusing....

Thanks, that's helpful along with the family trees. I think what gave me trouble is the sheer number of them in the stories along with the reused names.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Gotta disagree on Dany being the rightful heir. Stannis clearly has the best claim. The Targs lost the kingdom and power after Robert's rebellion, they aren't owed anything. As some previous said, she is certainly welcome to take the throne by force, but it's not hers by right until she does.

 

[vareon]

Just finished the book, and finally able to enter this thread after like a year. Fantastic. Now to read all the things I surely missed!

 

[Deleted member 30609]

Bringing back Aegon felt really lame to me.

Really? We're this far into the series and you're going to randomly bring another force that wants to claim the Iron Throne? It only serves to dilute Dany's story further. I almost stopped reading at that point during ADWD. I could hardly freaking believe it.

 

[Freshmaker]

Bringing back Aegon felt really lame to me.

Really? We're this far into the series and you're going to randomly bring another force that wants to claim the Iron Throne? It only serves to dilute Dany's story further. I almost stopped reading at that point during ADWD. I could hardly freaking believe it.

In a way I suppose. He's not as totally useless as the Klingons on the boats though. Largely though him Tyrion's going to end up with Dany and fill in that smelly minister puzzle Dany was worrying about when her butt wasn't hurting etc.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Bringing back Aegon felt really lame to me.

Really? We're this far into the series and you're going to randomly bring another force that wants to claim the Iron Throne? It only serves to dilute Dany's story further. I almost stopped reading at that point during ADWD. I could hardly freaking believe it.

You believe he's actually Aegon? Why?

 

[RatskyWatsky]

Bringing back Aegon felt really lame to me.

Really? We're this far into the series and you're going to randomly bring another force that wants to claim the Iron Throne? It only serves to dilute Dany's story further. I almost stopped reading at that point during ADWD. I could hardly freaking believe it.

Maybe he's not really Aegon?

 

[Deleted member 30609]

I guess the Varys connection makes it a little bit more interesting, if it isn't actually Aegon.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

Also, I'm kind of sad that Sandor didn't really get any sort of send-off. I mean, it's appropriate, in a way, and if that's the end of his story I'll accept that, but are there any theories surrounding him at the moment?

 

[PhoenixDark]

Also, I'm kind of sad that Sandor didn't really get any sort of send-off. I mean, it's appropriate, in a way, and if that's the end of his story I'll accept that, but are there any theories surrounding him at the moment?

The main theory is that Sandor is the lame grave digger than Brienne sees in AFFC, when she visits the sparrows/monks. His horse is in their camp too

Also on Aegon: the House Of The Undying prophesy about a mummer dragon suggests to many people that Aegon is false. Dany is called the slayer of lies, and three apparant lies are presented:

1) a blue-eyed king with a red sword in his hand who cast no shadow
2) a cloth dragon amidst a cheering crowd
3) a great stone beast flying from a smoking tower, breathing shadow fire

 

[Dresden]

The main theory is that Sandor is the lame grave digger than Brienne sees in AFFC, when she visits the sparrows/monks. His horse is in their camp too

Also on Aegon: the House Of The Undying prophesy about a mummer dragon suggests to many people that Aegon is false. Dany is called the slayer of lies, and three apparant lies are presented:

1) a blue-eyed king with a red sword in his hand who cast no shadow
2) a cloth dragon amidst a cheering crowd
3) a great stone beast flying from a smoking tower, breathing shadow fire

1: Stannis
2: Aegon
3: Edric Storm? Bran? Jon?

 

[endre]

@3) I keep waiting for a stone dragon to be resurrected (also wouldn't mind Euron showing up with a real kraken).

 

[AngryMoth]

Theon better die a very painful death. What a piece of shit.

This comment from the non book thread made me sad

Btw, any word on when the 4th dunk and egg will be published? I've been holding off on reading them until I can get them all together, and I believe they're going to be published as one collection once the 4th one is out.

 

[ZeroRay]

@3) I keep waiting for a stone dragon to be resurrected (also wouldn't mind Euron showing up with a real kraken).

Can't wait for the zombie whales.

AKA "dead things in the water".

 

[brentech]

This comment from the non book thread made me sad

Are you saying he didn't absolutely piss you off when reading COK?

 

[AngryMoth]

Are you saying he didn't absolutely piss you off when reading COK?

Haha of course but on reflection I'm firmly in the "he's just misunderstood" camp.

 

[bengraven]

Roose Bolton to Robb: "All Greyjoys are traitorous! Let me send word to my bastard at the Dreadfort..."

 

[KingGondo]

Roose Bolton to Robb: "All Greyjoys are traitorous! Let me send word to my bastard at the Dreadfort...

Yeah, it's a shame that Roose doesn't get more screentime. I like the actor though.

Can't wait to see who they cast as Ramsay. Most of the casting has been spot-on.

 

[Altazor]

Roose Bolton to Robb: "All Greyjoys are traitorous! Let me send word to my bastard at the Dreadfort..."

LOL, I was thinking the same shit while watching that scene.

Also, I found this gem in the NO BOOKS SPOILERS thread:

I know this show rarely delivers the kind of catharsis you hope for, but I'm really hoping that Robb's storyline doesn't end in horrible tragedy. It would seem that it's too good to be true as it is right now, for him, holding onto Jamie, with Arya getting valuable intelligence.

isn't that what we all wanted in the first place?

 

[brentech]

Haha of course but on reflection I'm firmly in the "he's just misunderstood" camp.

lol, I'll accept that answer then I suppose.
I hope he makes things right for what he has done. Although who knows how the story would have played out if he didn't do what he did there.

 

[gutshot]

This comment from the non book thread made me sad

What? It's perfect. That is exactly how they should feel at this point. It makes his later 'redemption' that much more interesting.

The non-reader thread is great because almost everyone is reacting to the characters and events the way they should (wishing Joff dead, hoping Robb doesn't die tragically, hating Theon, finding out Sandor has a soul, seeing the grey in Tywin's character, etc.). That tells me that David & Dan are doing a fine job with this adaptation so far.

 

[Schweinehund]

The casting for ygritte is so good. I love her character even more in the show since I get to see her charm.

That scene with sandor sent chills down my spine. Dude's a fucking terminator. Can't wait for his scenes in season 3/4.

 

[RatskyWatsky]

The main theory is that Sandor is the lame grave digger than Brienne sees in AFFC, when she visits the sparrows/monks. His horse is in their camp too

Also on Aegon: the House Of The Undying prophesy about a mummer dragon suggests to many people that Aegon is false. Dany is called the slayer of lies, and three apparant lies are presented:

1) a blue-eyed king with a red sword in his hand who cast no shadow
2) a cloth dragon amidst a cheering crowd
3) a great stone beast flying from a smoking tower, breathing shadow fire

1: Does Stannis have blue eyes? I'm trying to think of characters that do.
2: Aegon
3: This one could also be Stannis... Stone=Dragonstone (or it could mean that Stannis is very stonelike in his manner). Smoking=fire=Melisandre. Shadow fire=Melisandre's shadows

I love trying to puzzle out the prophecies in these books. I read the old dwarf woman's prophecies in ASOS over and over again, and put most of them together. I was totally unsurprised when Catelyn was killed at the red wedding and when she rose again as Lady Stoneheart, as it fit exactly what the dwarf woman prophesied.

 

[SerArthurDayne]

Yes, Stannis has blue eyes. Number 1 is him.

 

[RatskyWatsky]

Yes, Stannis has blue eyes. Number 1 is him.

Okay, I wasn't sure. His description on the ASOIAF wiki didn't mention an eye color.

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

1: Does Stannis have blue eyes? I'm trying to think of characters that do.
2: Aegon
3: This one could also be Stannis... Stone=Dragonstone (or it could mean that Stannis is very stonelike in his manner). Smoking=fire=Melisandre. Shadow fire=Melisandre's shadows
.

I see that as the dragon of the north theory. When Bran is still in the crypt while winterfell is still burning and crumbling, summer sees some huge winged beast rise out of the rubble and fly away.

Its a fun theory. Might even explain the hot springs underneath the castle that keep it warm. Shadow fire would make it seem to me that it is an agent of the others and what ever force that is. A dragon fight could even be in the cards, so i want to believe.

 

[bengraven]

Okay, I wasn't sure. His description on the ASOIAF wiki didn't mention an eye color.

If I remember this correctly, all the brothers have blue eyes and so does Gendry. Which is why Ned sees Robert and Brienne sees Renly in him.

 

[Matt]

Okay, I wasn't sure. His description on the ASOIAF wiki didn't mention an eye color.

Stannis also has a fake red sword and gave his shadow (so to speak) to Melisandre. Number one is him.

 

[RatskyWatsky]

I see that as the dragon of the north theory. When Bran is still in the crypt while winterfell is still burning and crumbling, summer sees some huge winged beast rise out of the rubble and fly away.

Its a fun theory. Might even explain the hot springs underneath the castle that keep it warm. Shadow fire would make it seem to me that it is an agent of the others and what ever force that is. A dragon fight could even be in the cards, so i want to believe.

Ohh shit I didn't even remember that! :O :O

If I remember this correctly, all the brothers have blue eyes and so does Gendry. Which is why Ned sees Robert and Brienne sees Renly in him.

I forget a lot of things in these books. >.<

Stannis also has a fake red sword and gave his shadow (so to speak) to Melisandre. Number one is him.

Yeah. I knew he fit the description (outside of eye color), but I also thought that he could be #3 as well.

 

[Supermanisdead]

I see that as the dragon of the north theory. When Bran is still in the crypt while winterfell is still burning and crumbling, summer sees some huge winged beast rise out of the rubble and fly away.

Its a fun theory. Might even explain the hot springs underneath the castle that keep it warm. Shadow fire would make it seem to me that it is an agent of the others and what ever force that is. A dragon fight could even be in the cards, so i want to believe.

Woah did not get that AT ALL. Even though I pretty much missed any and all subtext/prophecy in the series, this one doesn't get around as much on forums I guess.

 

[Tuck]

Currently reading AFFC. My thoughts:

I'm enjoying it. I had heard that it isn't as good as the first three, but I'm enjoying it. I can certainly see why some people may not like it.

The best characters aren't in the book. Arya and Sansa have the most interesting stories here (Arya especially), but it seems like they get the shaft in favour of Ceresi, Jamie and the Dorne/Iron Island plots.

I'm really enjoying the Arya subplot. Its great. Its the one area where I think a character is actually progressing. Sansa's story is great if only because Littlefinger seems to be scheming his way to... something.

Brienne's plot is near pointless. I like her character. I like Podrick. The chapters are well written. But as readers, we know she is going the wrong way. At one point she thought about heading to the Vale, and then talks herself out of it. It seems like a waste. And I know what ends up happening to her, so its not like eventually she makes her way to Arya or Sansa. Again, I like the character, but her chapters were basically rendered pointless.

Ceresi's chapters are... interesting. They give a good look into her as a ruler (She isn't a good one). But the problem here is there is no progression. Nothing is happening. Jamie as well.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure about the Iron Island plotline. A lot of it seems like it could have been summed up in a line or two. The first chapter was 15 pages just to repeat what we already knew - that Balon was dead. The next three chapters just built up to Euron being crowned. Again - I have said it several times now - the chapters are interesting and well written. But they either lack progression or seem utterly pointless. I guess these chapters were needed to give perspective on the Iron Islands.

The Dorne plotline fairs a little better. Dorne had not played a huge part in the story up until now, so thee chapters give some perspective on them. The constantly changing POVs (Similar to the Iron Islands) was... weird though.

Samwell - I wish he had more chapters, but I guess he isn't doing much. Jon was in the book for like 5 pages, and was a total dick. I hope he isn't like that in ADWD...

Overall, I'm enjoying the book. But it does seem to drag a bit. I wish there was more Arya. Her chapters are easily the best part of the book.

 

[3rdman]

What I find so impressive about GRRM as a writer is his ability to jump in and out of characters and their perspective stories and to tell things from their POV only. To be forced to wear Jaime's and Cersei's skin and to see their rationale as only they see it is fascinating. As a consequence, your opinions change and in some cases, characters you've hated, you grow to care for.

I'm reminded of this only because Tuck mentioned how much of a dick Jon is in AFFC...But of course this is only because we can see things through Sam's eyes. To see Jon's motivations, we must first see things through him. I don't know if other books have been written this way but I found it to be a fascinating way of telling a story. Kind a like "Rashoman" taken to a its literary equivalent. It's one of my favorite things about the series...Every chapter is like warging (LOL) into another character.