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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

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Speaking of Winds of Winter, what POV is everyone looking forward to reading the most?

Personally, I'm looking forward to reading Sansa the most. Her chapters (and Jaime's) were my favorite part of AFFC. I really enjoy reading about the Vale, and Littlefinger is easily one the best characters in the series. After Sansa I'm looking forward to Davos, Theon, Jaime and Bran's chapters in that order.

I'd really like Aegon to be the real deal. Just to shove it in Dany's face- "Oh hey Dany, while you were off pining for Daario I took over the Seven Kingdoms! Sorry!"

I'd like this too, at this point I just want her to be gone from the story.
 

Iksenpets

Banned
I'd like this too, at this point I just want her to be gone from the story.

My running theory is that the Dornish will pull a Red Wedding style trap on Dany in the final book as revenge for Quentyn, just to troll everyone who thinks the book's about to end with Dany on the throne.
 

gutshot

Member
8. I'm curious: there is R'llor and "the god who must not be named." I'm thinking it's the Many Faced God. What's the theory on this?

"The god who must not be named" is, I think, the Great Other. He is the god of darkness and ice and cold. Basically, the yin to R'hllor's yang.

The Many-Faced God is the god of death.

Aegon is fake too, I can't wait for him to ally with Dorne in TWoW and fall flat on his face.

I think Aegon is a Blackfyre. Think about it, why would the Golden Company, founded by Blackfyre supporter Bittersteel, whose company motto is "Beneath the gold, the bitter steel", and by all measures hates the Targaryens, all of a sudden hitch their wagon to a Targ?

My guess is "Aegon" is really the grandson of Haegon Blackfyre, who was spirited away from Westeros by Bittersteel when he was a boy, after their failed rebellion. George made a point of mentioning that the Blackfyre line has the same physical traits of the Targaryens (silver hair, violet eyes). I also think Jon Connington doesn't realize Aegon is a Blackfyre, they are using him and his love of Rhaegar to help gain the support of the Westeros lords. Also, it's a brilliant narrative trick by GRRM to make him the POV we have with "Aegon" as it makes us believe he is who he says he is, so the reveal will be more of a surprise.
 
My running theory is that the Dornish will pull a Red Wedding style trap on Dany in the final book as revenge for Quentyn, just to troll everyone who thinks the book's about to end with Dany on the throne.

That would be...amazing.


I think Aegon is a Blackfyre. Think about it, why would the Golden Company, founded by Blackfyre supporter Bittersteel, whose company motto is "Beneath the gold, the bitter steel", and by all measures hates the Targaryens, all of a sudden hitch their wagon to a Targ?

My guess is "Aegon" is really the grandson of Haegon Blackfyre, who was spirited away from Westeros by Bittersteel when he was a boy, after their failed rebellion. George made a point of mentioning that the Blackfyre line has the same physical traits of the Targaryens (silver hair, violet eyes). I also think Jon Connington doesn't realize Aegon is a Blackfyre, they are using him and his love of Rhaegar to help gain the support of the Westeros lords. Also, it's a brilliant narrative trick by GRRM to make him the POV we have with "Aegon" as it makes us believe he is who he says he is, so the reveal will be more of a surprise.

Agreed, on all points. Aegon turing out to be an actual Targaryen is way too tropish for my taste. As a Blackfyre he's a much more interesting character. I wonder how the truth will be discovered (if at all)?
 
I think Aegon is a Blackfyre. Think about it, why would the Golden Company, founded by Blackfyre supporter Bittersteel, whose company motto is "Beneath the gold, the bitter steel", and by all measures hates the Targaryens, all of a sudden hitch their wagon to a Targ?

My guess is "Aegon" is really the grandson of Haegon Blackfyre, who was spirited away from Westeros by Bittersteel when he was a boy, after their failed rebellion. George made a point of mentioning that the Blackfyre line has the same physical traits of the Targaryens (silver hair, violet eyes). I also think Jon Connington doesn't realize Aegon is a Blackfyre, they are using him and his love of Rhaegar to help gain the support of the Westeros lords. Also, it's a brilliant narrative trick by GRRM to make him the POV we have with "Aegon" as it makes us believe he is who he says he is, so the reveal will be more of a surprise.

Well, they physical characteristics make sense, considering that the Blackfyres are Targs- sister fucking included, they just didn't happen to be married at the time they were making babies.

And Haegon is kind of a hanging plotline, but I kind of expect Dunk to deal with him. And we know what happened to Maelys.

I don't know, I wouldn't be shocked, but I just assumed the Golden Company just wanted to go home. That makes sense from a practical purpose- they are 100 years removed. All the Blackfyres that (at least the majority of them) know about are dead. Many are new, with no loyalty to the Blackfyres. Plus, they are sellswords who will become fabulously wealthy if they win.

The Targs have been punished, they get to go home. They have already marred their reputation by breaking a contract, so I don't buy that they are too honorable to make a pact with a Targaryen.

If he is a Blackfyre, it would makes sense to bring him in at this particular time, though, above any other point in time, so there is that.
 

Iksenpets

Banned
Agreed, on all points. Aegon turing out to be an actual Targaryen is way too tropish for my taste. As a Blackfyre he's a much more interesting character. I wonder how the truth will be discovered (if at all)?

I agree that a Blackfyre Aegon would be more interesting than a Targ, but I think he's probably neither. I think he's just some pale Lyseni boy Varys picked up in one of their pleasure houses who was the right age to play the role. He raises him as his perfect king and sells him to Connington as a Targ and to the Golden Company as a Blackfyre to bring allies to the cause. Fits well with the speech about power being a trick and a shadow. I don't buy the whole Varys as a secret Blackfyre theory, I think he's just a guy who's gotten carried away with his "good of the realm" ideology.
 
I agree that a Blackfyre Aegon would be more interesting than a Targ, but I think he's probably neither. I think he's just some pale Lyseni boy Varys picked up in one of their pleasure houses who was the right age to play the role. He raises him as his perfect king and sells him to Connington as a Targ and to the Golden Company as a Blackfyre to bring allies to the cause. Fits well with the speech about power being a trick and a shadow. I don't buy the whole Varys as a secret Blackfyre theory, I think he's just a guy who's gotten carried away with his "good of the realm" ideology.

I like this idea the best of all. Not every character has to be the son or daughter of someone important, it's repetitive and predictable. It's also why I really don't want Jon to turn out to be a Targaryen. It was cool when I first thought of it after reading ACOK, but the shock value has worn off and frankly with the way things are going for the Starks I'd rather he carry their banner as opposed to one with a dragon on it.
 
The writing is on the wall for Jon, and has been since AGOT really, so that's not going to change. But yeah, less hidden identities and false deaths would be nice, but that's something GRRM loves so we'll probably see more of it.
 

gutshot

Member
I think it makes more sense that Varys and Illyrio are Blackfyre supporters than if they are Targaryen supporters or are only interested in the "good of the realm". If Varys is really interested in the "good of the realm" why does he kill Kevan for bringing too much stability to the realm? It makes no sense. He has been instigating instability in the realm since the beginning of the series, so the "good of the realm" argument is invalid.

Secondly, why would Varys be so loyal to the Targaryens? His first exposure to the Targaryens was through serving the Mad King. Did Aerys inspire that much loyalty in him? I find it unlikely. We also know he was sowing discord between Aerys and Rhaegar, so it seems from the beginning, he wanted the Targaryens to fall.

Plus, we know that Varys and Illyrio became quite powerful and well-known in the Free Cities. It seems very likely then that Varys and Illyrio would have had dealings with the Company prior to Varys coming over to Westeros. My guess is it was then that their Blackfyre loyalties developed.

I just think GRRM has gone out of his way to establish the Blackfyres and given us a lot of backstory on them and their rebellion, so it would be strange if they did not pop back up again.
 

suzu

Member
Secret Targs for everybody. :)

I like the theory that Aegon is a Blackfyre though. It seems interesting and would make sense. It explains his Targaryen traits too (silver hair, violet eyes).
 
I like this idea the best of all. Not every character has to be the son or daughter of someone important, it's repetitive and predictable. It's also why I really don't want Jon to turn out to be a Targaryen. It was cool when I first thought of it after reading ACOK, but the shock value has worn off and frankly with the way things are going for the Starks I'd rather he carry their banner as opposed to one with a dragon on it.

Um, he is still going to be a Stark by blood, and probably more importantly, by upbringing.

Every "I hate character X so the best thing for GRRM can do with them is kill them off arbitrarily" comments are so asinine that they're barely worth replying to.

Dany is a legit shitty character in Dance. Like Cat, for example. People just don't like her. Dany was actually bad in Dance, so I can understand it. I don't wish her dead, but I do hope that Aegon is real, so it can step down here sense of entitlement a notch. Not that it would make her any better. In Dance she behaves like a 10 year old with weapons of mass destruction.
 
The writing is on the wall for Jon, and has been since AGOT really, so that's not going to change. But yeah, less hidden identities and false deaths would be nice, but that's something GRRM loves so we'll probably see more of it.

Interesting, so you think the fisherwoman thing mentioned in ADWD is juse a ruse by George to sow doubt?
 
Interesting, so you think the fisherwoman thing mentioned in ADWD is juse a ruse by George to sow doubt?

I don't think there's even a good alternative to R+L=J at this point. And I don't think GRRM is really trying to fool anyone with that fisherman story, it's just another rumor, not a serious option.
 
Fisherman's daughter doesn't even make any sense if you consider Edric's story. It seems to be pretty much confirmed that a kid was in Dorne with Eddard, nursed by Wylla. This is common knowledge in Starfall, so unless Eddard has a bastard he doesn't give a shit about, the fisherman's daughter can't be the mother.
 

Iksenpets

Banned
I think it makes more sense that Varys and Illyrio are Blackfyre supporters than if they are Targaryen supporters or are only interested in the "good of the realm". If Varys is really interested in the "good of the realm" why does he kill Kevan for bringing too much stability to the realm? It makes no sense. He has been instigating instability in the realm since the beginning of the series, so the "good of the realm" argument is invalid.

Secondly, why would Varys be so loyal to the Targaryens? His first exposure to the Targaryens was through serving the Mad King. Did Aerys inspire that much loyalty in him? I find it unlikely. We also know he was sowing discord between Aerys and Rhaegar, so it seems from the beginning, he wanted the Targaryens to fall.

Plus, we know that Varys and Illyrio became quite powerful and well-known in the Free Cities. It seems very likely then that Varys and Illyrio would have had dealings with the Company prior to Varys coming over to Westeros. My guess is it was then that their Blackfyre loyalties developed.

I just think GRRM has gone out of his way to establish the Blackfyres and given us a lot of backstory on them and their rebellion, so it would be strange if they did not pop back up again.

Like I said, I think he's gotten carried away and blinded himself to the damage he's causing to bring about his vision. He killed Kevan because to him, no matter how capable Kevan may be he would always be ruling for the Lannisters and not for the realm.

He sowed discord between Aerys and Rhaegar because Rhaegar really was considering ending his father's rule and Varys didn't want the civil war that would cause. Jamie recalls a conversation with Rhaegar in AFFC (or maybe it was Barristan in ADWD? One of those two.) that seems to imply Rhaegar had at least considered the idea. Varys figured it would be better to just wait out Aerys' death. He advised Aerys to close the gates to Tywin because he knows the war is lost, but would prefer to wait it out to let the city fall to Ned, who would treat it more kindly than Tywin did.

Before Aerys' fall I don't thing he was actively trying to sow discord, its only after he hatched his Aegon scheme that his strategy turned to outright chaos.

As for Dany, I'm not one of the haters who thinks he's ruined the character and should just kill her out of convenience. I just think her eventual death would probably be the most thematically consistent end to her arc.
 
Is a lot of the Blackfyre back story covered in the Dunk & Egg stories? I haven't read those yet, and I don't remember reading much about it in the main series. Though maybe it's just something else that I missed on my first read through.
 
Passing references in the main story.

The vast majority takes place in the Dunk & Egg shorts. Those take place a few years after the first Blackfyre Rebellion.

Also, some just comes from information that Martin released outside of the books.
 
By making it an even bigger waste of time and space?

I don't think that's possible.

Is a lot of the Blackfyre back story covered in the Dunk & Egg stories? I haven't read those yet, and I don't remember reading much about it in the main series. Though maybe it's just something else that I missed on my first read through.

Yeah, most of it's in the Dunk and Egg stories, especially the latter two stories which are pretty good. I loved the hell out of the Hedge Knight though.
 
Passing references in the main story.

The vast majority takes place in the Dunk & Egg shorts. Those take place a few years after the first Blackfyre Rebellion.

Also, some just comes from information that Martin released outside of the books.
Cool, thanks. Maybe I'll read through the Dunk & Egg stories this weekend if I have some time.
 

Tacitus_

Member
Fisherman's daughter doesn't even make any sense if you consider Edric's story. It seems to be pretty much confirmed that a kid was in Dorne with Eddard, nursed by Wylla. This is common knowledge in Starfall, so unless Eddard has a bastard he doesn't give a shit about, the fisherman's daughter can't be the mother.

What about that lady who threw herself off of a tower? Do the timelines match up?
 

JerkShep

Member
Also, it's a brilliant narrative trick by GRRM to make him the POV we have with "Aegon" as it makes us believe he is who he says he is, so the reveal will be more of a surprise.

Eh I think that at this stage the real surprise would be that Aegon is indeed a Targ.
I still don't know how to feel about Aegon, I can't understand if he's another "red herring" waiting for a gruesome death after 200 pages in TWOW or the (long awaited?) new faction in the game of thrones.
 

suzu

Member
I want this to happen, epic troll.

FbLrm.gif
 

Veelk

Banned
Dany is a legit shitty character in Dance. Like Cat, for example. People just don't like her. Dany was actually bad in Dance, so I can understand it. I don't wish her dead, but I do hope that Aegon is real, so it can step down here sense of entitlement a notch. Not that it would make her any better. In Dance she behaves like a 10 year old with weapons of mass destruction.

I disagree. Her chapters were definitely not as enjoyable to read, but nothing what happened made her a shit character.

Entitlement? If anything, Aegon is worse than her in that department, always wanting to go into battle and thinking of himself and whats 'owed' him. He didn't even consider until Tyrion pointed it out that Dany might not want to share her power with him, he just took it for granted that she would. He has a similar attitude toward the Seven Kingdoms. Varys is in for a very rude awakening when he finds out his prince is as much of a spoiled brat as any other.

Dany, on the other hand, was very mature. The problem is that she is simply not fit for ruling. When she left Astapor, she assumed that the slaves, who knew suffering, would be kind, just rulers, so when she heard that they were just as bad as the masters before them, she realized she couldn't simply leave Meereen the same way. She made a mistake and learned from it. Then she tried to enforce moral laws, not through force, but by adhering to their customs and just trying to be a good ruler. She failed utterly. This is due to several factors, including but not limited to cultural differences, perceived cruelness, and the greed of the old masters of Meereen. But a large part of it is on dany as well. She simply is too inexperienced in politics and cannot think about these situations the way someone like Tyrion does.

A good example is when the infected people were outside her walls. She knew she shouldn't go out to them and help them because that would bring the plague into the city. But she couldn't bring herself to let those people suffer like that. Now, going out to help or staying within the walls, either action would be commendable in it's own way. One is pragmatic and the other is humanitarian. However, what she did was open the gates and help a few, then closed them on it. While she was trying to compromise and her heart was certainly in the right place, she didn't really help nearly enough to do any difference, but still carried the risk of bringing the disease into the city. She shouldn't have gone halfway, but picked one or the other.

She's not a good ruler, whether that's due to her gentleness or inexperience or simply not having the personality for it or Meereen simply not being the city that she should be trying to rule, I don't know, but she completely failed here. And she is completely aware of it. Yet you described her as a 10 year old with WMD's? She LOCKED up her WMD's and refused to use them or resort to them to simply get her way when that would have been the most simple minded solution to the Meereenese Knot. Instead, she tried to rule justly. How many 10 year olds do you know that have this much patience and moral grounding that they'd go out of their way to try and be a good ruler when they could just level the selfish pricks who made everything so difficult?



Much to the contrary. It would make the whole Dany's storyline irrelevant, meaning that we have followed a character trought 5 books that in the end has no relevance to the main plot, acting only as a "sidequest" to know what is brewing on other parts of the world just for the shake of world building instead of plot advancement. I would feel seriously fooled by Martin, and I am by no means a Daenerys fan. If she's meant to die, she better dies after she directly affects the course of the Westeros war.

B-b-but she suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks! So she has to die stupidly and for no reason!
 

Ikael

Member
This would make all the ADWD Dany chapters worthwhile.

Much to the contrary. It would make the whole Dany's storyline irrelevant, meaning that we have followed a character trought 5 books that in the end has no relevance to the main plot, acting only as a "sidequest" to know what is brewing on other parts of the world just for the shake of world building instead of plot advancement. I would feel seriously fooled by Martin, and I am by no means a Daenerys fan. If she's meant to die, she better dies after she directly affects the course of the Westeros war.
 
What about that lady who threw herself off of a tower? Do the timelines match up?

The lady was Ashara Dayne of Starfall. Time-wise I'm not sure how much sense that makes. Jon isn't old enough for him to be conceived at the tourney at Harrenhall and I don't think Ned would have knocked her up after bringing her the Sword of the Morning, hung around in Dorne for 9 months then taken Jon and left her to kill herself.
 

Iksenpets

Banned
Much to the contrary. It would make the whole Dany's storyline irrelevant, meaning that we have followed a character trought 5 books that in the end has no relevance to the main plot, acting only as a "sidequest" to know what is brewing on other parts of the world just for the shake of world building instead of plot advancement. I would feel seriously fooled by Martin, and I am by no means a Daenerys fan. If she's meant to die, she better dies after she directly affects the course of the Westeros war.

As long as she dies after in one way or another ending Stannis and Aegon's respective claims, then I think she's fulfilled the House of the Undying prophecies and has played a suitably large role in the main plot.
 

JerkShep

Member
As long as she dies after in one way or another ending Stannis and Aegon's respective claims, then I think she's fulfilled the House of the Undying prophecies and has played a suitably large role in the main plot.

There's still the beast of stone or something and the love story with Jon Snow.
 

Tacitus_

Member
The lady was Ashara Dayne of Starfall. Time-wise I'm not sure how much sense that makes. Jon isn't old enough for him to be conceived at the tourney at Harrenhall and I don't think Ned would have knocked her up after bringing her the Sword of the Morning, hung around in Dorne for 9 months then taken Jon and left her to kill herself.

I'm not saying that it's a more likely theory, but it could work. Besides, L+R=J being a red herring would be hilarious.
 

KingK

Member
I'd really like Aegon to be the real deal. Just to shove it in Dany's face- "Oh hey Dany, while you were off pining for Daario I took over the Seven Kingdoms! Sorry!"

Me too. I think there's a chance Aegon is fake, but I also think it's possible he's the real deal. I hope he is real, just to fuck over Dany a bit. Either way though, there's no way he survives the next book, imo.


Unless having died turns Jon into a raging asshole, he's not her type.
Yeah, if Jon and Dany hook up I'm going to fucking punch GRRM in the face. Easily my least favorite fan theory.
 

RatskyWatsky

Hunky Nostradamus
Yup, but I didn't put the two together for some reason until after I read the letter from Ramsay.

I started reading this book back in December (lol) and finally ploughed through the rest of it tonight, so my memory is a bit choppy. Forgive me. :p

Ahh okay. If you read the book across several months, then it's understandable that you might not remember key plot points. Not that I'm one to judge either way though, as I missed a shit ton of stuff in each book, and I read them all consecutively.
 

Ikael

Member
As long as she dies after in one way or another ending Stannis and Aegon's respective claims, then I think she's fulfilled the House of the Undying prophecies and has played a suitably large role in the main plot.

I am more or less in the same boat as you. I wouldn't mind her death per se, and yes, I hope to God that the shipping theories of Jon + Dany will burn down like the Hinderburg. But I would seriously punch a kitten if Martin pulls a Lost on us regarding Daenerys plot.

"Hey, you know about this seemingly crucial storyline that you have all so much speculated about and we have devoted a huge chunk of our narrative to? guess what? it is not slightly relevant to the main plot and will be forever shrouded in "mistery"! Holy shit what a genious I am, what a great trolling move, what a twist!". No it wouldn't be genious or shocking, it would be cheapass scriptwritting.

Now, a civil war of North VS South with Jon and Daenerys in opposing sides... hmmm...
 
Entitlement is what Dany oozes through the novels. I deserve the iron throne, everyone else is evil for denying it, blah blah blah. I can't remember particular examples, I just found her personality to be irksome in this respect as I read. The Targs conquered Westeros less than 300 years ago, then they got conquered. Sorry your dad was a crazy piece of shit and lost the kingdom, but you aren't owed anything. Sure, you can fight to get it back, but it is no longer yours by right.

She is an incompetent ruler who rejects good advice when it's given. She is an incompetent raiser of dragons. That is admittedly not her fault, there isn't that much expert advice on how to raise a dragon. Sure, it is good that she didn't let them run around and kill people, so it is good that she tried to remove the threat. Not unlike a WMD in a silo, neh? But even that plan was shit. She had feral dragons probably not long from breaking out and wreaking havoc. She took no affirmative action to figure out what the fuck to do about them. And it all went to shit.

I never had a problem with her until Dance. Before that she was a fine character, some boring stuff, but some particular highlights. Dance exacerbated the bad and lacked a redeeming moment.
 

Veelk

Banned
Entitlement is what Dany oozes through the novels. I deserve the iron throne, everyone else is evil for denying it, blah blah blah. I can't remember particular examples, I just found her personality to be irksome in this respect as I read. The Targs conquered Westeros less than 300 years ago, then they got conquered. Sorry your dad was a crazy piece of shit and lost the kingdom, but you aren't owed anything. Sure, you can fight to get it back, but it is no longer yours by right.

Well, she IS the rightful heir if Aegon isn't real and the ruling family from before the Aegon's Conquest happened has no objections, and she DID have her entire family killed because other people wanted to steal the throne from her and her family. She probably wouldn't care as much if she hadn't been hunted down HER ENTIRE LIFE and lost every family she ever had over it. Remember the first book? Drogo was not going to go across the sea to conquer Westeros, and she was okay with that. She was going to give birth to a son that probably would do that, but that was going to be on him. She was happy being the Khaleesi. Then Robert tried to kill her for having the gall to....have a child. She finally got a chance for a normal life and a new family, and here comes Robert trying to take all that away from her again. There is a lot more going on here than simple entitlement. For her, reestablishing Targaryen rule is the key to the safety and security of herself and her people.

And it also makes no sense that you promote Aegon if that is why you had a problem with Dany? He too had his life fucked over, but Dany was willing to let the matter go until the assassination attempt. Aegon, by all appearances, always fully planned on retaking the iron throne for himself even if Robert never attacked him. He is far more entitled than Dany.

She is an incompetent ruler who rejects good advice when it's given. She is an incompetent raiser of dragons. That is admittedly not her fault, there isn't that much expert advice on how to raise a dragon. Sure, it is good that she didn't let them run around and kill people, so it is good that she tried to remove the threat. Not unlike a WMD in a silo, neh? But even that plan was shit. She had feral dragons probably not long from breaking out and wreaking havoc. She took no affirmative action to figure out what the fuck to do about them. And it all went to shit.

I'm not saying she didn't HAVE WMD's, but she didn't use them irresponsibly like your implying. What do you suggest that she do if not lock them up somewhere? How do you teach a dragon "No, don't eat that child"? Especially now that they are big enough to be ridden. It's not like a dog where you can pull on the chain or something when it's about to do a bad action. They don't have electric collars and if they try to do anything at all, the dragon is more likely to fry them alive than back down. So how was she suppose to come up with any other solution besides "Lock them up so they don't do more damage."

Also, keep in mind that Dragons really aren't much good for anything but destruction and wreaking havok. Remember that she was trying to run a city peacefully. Even if we assume she could have got them under her complete control, what was she suppose to do with them? Her the main problems were nightly assassinations, diplomacy conflicts, hunger, and disease. How would dragons help with those?

I never had a problem with her until Dance. Before that she was a fine character, some boring stuff, but some particular highlights. Dance exacerbated the bad and lacked a redeeming moment.

The main problem with her chapters is that they take place in an area we don't have as much investment in and that she is incompetant at what she is doing. The names of the people were strange and foreign. If the exact same events had transpired in Red Keep, we would have not been as disconnected by simple virtue of familiar faces. The fact that Dany is incompetent at what she is doing doesn't help either, because it's always more fun to read about a character who is consistantly awesome. But one of the strengths of ASoIaF is that it is realistic. And there would have been nothing realistic about Dany being awesome here.

However, it's not like her situation was as simple as most haters would like to see it. Like I said about the infected people outside her gates, both solutions had their strengths and weaknesses. Part of Dany's problem is that she is too empathetic for politics. All she has ever wanted to do since ACoK is help her people, so when she sees them suffering outside, the smart decision would be to leave them alone, but also a very cold one. And Dany is not cold to her people. So if she had done that without a thought, it'd have been out of character and perhaps made her far less likable for being so callous.

On top of that, she always had to deal with A LOT OF SHIT that most normal people would have cracked under. Who was on her side? Who was plotting against her? She needs to make her city prosper, but to do that she needs to cut off other helpless people that she personally promised to save. But if she does that, how can she be any different from the other tyrants in the city. She is suppose to be a savior to these people, isn't she? But how does she help? Is taking away the fighting pits TRULY the right thing when it's such a part of their culture and the fighters themselves want it so badly? And what about her own personal happiness? She has to marry a guy she finds repulsive in almost every way and he could be a harpy on top of that so that the city she promised to save prospers.

Get over the distaste of Dany not being awesome at everything she tries (thus, preventing her from being the mary sue that people have called her up until this book), learn to deal with the foreign names and stuff, and you can find a pretty compelling arc that explores a new side of Dany's character and what it means to rule.
 
Much to the contrary. It would make the whole Dany's storyline irrelevant, meaning that we have followed a character trought 5 books that in the end has no relevance to the main plot, acting only as a "sidequest" to know what is brewing on other parts of the world just for the shake of world building instead of plot advancement. I would feel seriously fooled by Martin, and I am by no means a Daenerys fan. If she's meant to die, she better dies after she directly affects the course of the Westeros war.

Was Robb's story irrelevant just because he was killed?
 

Veelk

Banned
Was Robb's story irrelevant just because he was killed?

Relevance is....well, relative.

Robb made a large difference in the plot concerning westeros, which is the main plot of the books if there is one. Why is Dany important? Because of what she is going to do when she returns to Westeros. Why is Jon important? He's keeping the Others from Westeros.

If Dany dies before she has her impact on westeros, then yes, in relation to the main plot, she will have been largely irrelevant. All she really did is instigate the war by having a child, which made Robert send the assassin, breaking the alliance between Ned and Robert, and etc etc. If she does nothing in relation to what will happen to Westeros now, then then all her chapters since then will have been for naught.
 
Relevance is....well, relative.

Robb made a large difference in the plot concerning westeros, which is the main plot of the books if there is one. Why is Dany important? Because of what she is going to do when she returns to Westeros. Why is Jon important? He's keeping the Others from Westeros.

If Dany dies before she has her impact on westeros, then yes, in relation to the main plot, she will have been largely irrelevant. All she really did is instigate the war by having a child, which made Robert send the assassin, breaking the alliance between Ned and Robert, and etc etc. If she does nothing in relation to what will happen to Westeros now, then then all her chapters since then will have been for naught.

Well, your assumption at this point is that she's there to have an effect on westeros. Haven't we learned that what we all expect a character is "for" is prone to be wrong in this series?
 

Veelk

Banned
Well, your assumption at this point is that she's there to have an effect on westeros. Haven't we learned that what we all expect a character is "for" is prone to be wrong in this series?

Expectations have nothing to do with this. It's just a matter of structure. If she is going to affect the main plot (Nearly every PoV chapter deals with westeros, so if you don't see it as the main plot, I don't see what you could possibly suggest is), then she is relevant to it. If she doesn't, she isn't. If she's irrelevant, I'd call that bad story structure, but not bad writing exatly. It just means that it should have been it's own book rather than a part of the main series if that's the case.
 

shira

Member
Expectations have nothing to do with this. It's just a matter of structure. If she is going to affect the main plot (Nearly every PoV chapter deals with westeros, so if you don't see it as the main plot, I don't see what you could possibly suggest is), then she is relevant to it. If she doesn't, she isn't. If she's irrelevant, I'd call that bad story structure, but not bad writing exatly. It just means that it should have been it's own book rather than a part of the main series if that's the case.

Haven't all the prophecies been generally true. I'm kind of wondering how they will handle the House of Undying in the tv series or if they will at all

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_of_the_Undying#Visions_in_the_House_of_the_Undying

I'm guessing she at least needs to train the dragons before she dies. Otherwise the dragons are just gonna run wild.
 

Veelk

Banned
Haven't all the prophecies been generally true. I'm kind of wondering how they will handle the House of Undying in the tv series or if they will at all

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_of_the_Undying#Visions_in_the_House_of_the_Undying

I'm guessing she at least needs to train the dragons before she dies. Otherwise the dragons are just gonna run wild.

Considering a large part of Dany's anxiety is worrying over the treasons and they have already cast Pyat Pree, I doubt they'll leave it out.

I'm personally sure that she is still going to do important things, I was just hypothetically assuming she would die a random meaningless death like her detractors wish her to and showing them how that would be terrible for the story, whether you hate her or not.
 

Seguin

Banned
Considering a large part of Dany's anxiety is worrying over the treasons and they have already cast Pyat Pree, I doubt they'll leave it out.

I'm personally sure that she is still going to do important things, I was just hypothetically assuming she would die a random meaningless death like her detractors wish her to and showing them how that would be terrible for the story, whether you hate her or not.

Meh, different strokes and such. George RR Martin being willing to kill off any character, regardless of importance to the story is one of my favorite parts of the series.
 
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