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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

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Gor@n

Neo Member
Just finished ADWD, man what a ride the whole series has been. It's gonna kill me having to wait for TWoW. Might end up reading them again by the time its released. Just some thoughts regarding the series.

-Was fucking spewig when Robb died, thought it was a dream...fucking Freys
-Found the Daenerys chapters the least entertaining, was hard to follow all the unusual names of the people she dealt with.
-Jamie chapters and Tyrion chapters were a good read. As were the Greyjoys and Jon chapters.
- I want more Arya!!! fav character
- Hope Jon isn't dead, want him to march to Winterfell with all the wildlings, giants and mammoths and fuck shit up.
- Love how the Lannisters have destroyed themselves.

All in all, such an awesome series and was hooked from day one. Its just such a pity we have to wait so long for the next instalment.
 

Kem0sabe

Member
Just finished rereading the series last night, and was left wondering if it will have a happy ending.

Personally, after all the bloodshed, misery and violence, i love the idea that GRRM would end all of it with a sort of "happily ever after".

What do you all think?
 

gutshot

Member
Just finished rereading the series last night, and was left wondering if it will have a happy ending.

Personally, after all the bloodshed, misery and violence, i love the idea that GRRM would end all of it with a sort of "happily ever after".

What do you all think?

George has mentioned a few times that the ending will be "bittersweet".
 

ezrarh

Member
So, the others are defeated but everyone important either dies, has their loved ones killed or...?

If it's anything like Romance of the Three Kingdoms, all the main families will die and it'll be the Tarleys or the Kettleblacks on the Iron Throne.
 
Viserys was a bastard , but did anyone else pity him a bit? he was stupid and cruel, yes, but god knows what kind of emotional burdens that boy had to endure after his family was overthrown and butchered. I dont think the boy was fully sane, either from bad genetics (his father was fucking insane, plus a family tree of marriages between brother and sister for 300 consecutive years would definitely produce some abnormal offspring) or post traumatic stress.
 

bengraven

Member
Realistically the Starks no longer have a grasp at the throne. Robb's armies are scattered, many going over to Stannis. Bran has no interest in the throne, nor does Sansa or Arya really. Rickon? Lawl. But realistically I think the war is over from a Stark perspective.

The Lannisters? The prophecy says that Cersei's children will die before her, but she will die by her brother. Let's assume that leaves Tyrion and Jaime. Regardless of which one did the killing, the other isn't fit for the throne - either because they're the head of the King's Guard or because they're a criminal whom nobody loves. And despite his shadow loooking like a King, do you think Martin really will put Tyrion on the throne, despite him being his and the fans favorite - GRRM is too smart. Besides, whomever sits on the throne will likely be a miserable fuck who has lost much and Tyrion doesn't really have much or anyone to lose. Besides, there's only one way he's able to sit the throne: marriage to either Margaery or Dany.

How fucking hilarious would that be if Tyrion married Cersei? "The Targaryans always married brother to sister..." and due to how much they hate each other? God, that would be awesome. Then Tyrion kills Cersei and is the kind, intelligent, and just king the world needs.


So let's take the Lannisters and Starks off the table. The next level down is the Targs and Tyrells. I'll start with the Tyrells: Marg probably won't survive and has no children. There, Tyrells out of the picture. Also note: GRRM is a fan of "threes" but not "fours". The dragon has three heads, Dany's prophecies are all in threes and the bottom line is that Margaery married three kings and will not marry a fourth.

On to Targs: We have Dany and possibly fake Aegon (and Tyrion?). Dany looks to be the one going for the throne and who has the backing of her dragons. It's almost like everything is working like clockwork for her to be sitting the throne. We as readers expect this; hell some of us talk and debate as if her succession is obvious. GRRM doesn't really give us obvious as I stated above when discussing Tyrion. What if she suddenly doesn't want it? What if she gives up and goes on to live in that little house with a red door she dreams of? What if she never even reaches the shores of Westeros, but is fine with that? Or dead?

Daemon Blackfyre was a legitimized bastard son and he founded the Blackfyres, so if Aegon is a Blackfyre as some suggest, he's STILL fit for the throne, though far far down the tree - as far as Robert was or farther. So Dany or Aegon or both could be on the throne, whether they married each other or someone else. But Aegon coming so late to the game, despite a couple hints that he survived would be interesting, but I'm getting a very Robb vibe from him....maybe his wedding might be red.

So back to Tyrion: if Tyrion is indeed a Targ he suddenly has ANOTHER reason to be on the throne. But in order to do that, his marriage to Sansa needs to be annulled and I don't believe divorce is an option. The only way to seperate Sansa and Tyrion is by death. What if Tyrion is a Targ and is able to prove that and accends the throne? What if he never meets back up with Tysha? Sansa wanted to be queen, she could be a queen for Tyrion, though not a happy one. Sounds bittersweet in a way: Tyrion would be able to fuck and whore his way across the kingdom, but that could cause another war and I wonder if he would force himself to stop that kind of behavior. If Dany were to marry Tyrion she would likely also be miserable, though who's to say despite fandom's insistance that Jon is the one she "mounts for love"? Maybe she finds a way to love Tyrion...would be an interesting ending.

And then there's Jon. We know that his death is a way out of the Night's Watch, but it's too easy. He would need to warg out to Ghost, Mel woudl have to heal his body, then warg back into his old body. But he's alive again and who says that removes his vow? He stays dead or warged long enough and he'll be replaced on the wall by another Commander, that's not the issue. But Jon is an honorable man. He may leave and join the war, maybe doing Mel's bidding like Mance did before, but I could see in the end him returning to the Wall. Even if he finds love again. There's a huge reason why the first three books focus so much on his vows (especially Got and SOS) and somehow I doubt George is going to forget how much he beat it into our heads that a NIGHTS WATCHMAN NEVER LEAVES HIS POST. Jon will not leave, he will not take a seat anywhere, even Winterfell, and definitely not on the big metal ass cooler that we call the Iron Throne.


TL;DR version:

My final thoughts on who could sit the throne in the end:

Tyrion with Dany
Dany and Aegon
Dany and Tyrion
Tyrion and Sansa

Of course my opinion could change daily as more insane theories come to mind. I really should just join Westeros.org and become their insane Patchface of prophecy.

Also, I know this is long and unedited, but it was written on the fly and I don't think anyone will read it regardless.
 
Was just rereading ASoS today, and Tywin actually says to Tyrion that a marriage that is not consummated can be put aside. So, it's very easy to break up the Sansa/Tyrion marriage if that is GRRM's desire.
 

Tuck

Member

Two of your three predictions include Tyrion sitting the throne.

Never.

He may end up ruling Casterly Rock - that's what he seems to want, more than a throne, but I don't see him ever, ever becoming king. I think he'd be good at it, but I don't see it happening.

I agree that the Starks won't get the throne. Rickon will become Lord of Winterfell. Arya will probably go off exploring the world, Sansa will marry someone (She may end up on the throne, but I think this is unlikely).

Isn't Jon dead? Or is it just assumed that GRRM will bring him back to life / reveal that he was just grievously wounded?
 
My prediction for the series end is the realms complete decimation with Jon and his allies being victorious only after plague, famine, death and destruction ravages low-born and high-born folk alike. Then Dany swoops in on dragonback only to discover an empty throne, burned towns, rotting corpses with swarms of hungry crows picking at the eyeballs of the fallen. She realizes her dreams of Westeros have been false all along thus her arrival leaves her with much malcontent causing her departure back to the familiar lands of the free cities. This leaves room for the BWB to move in to secure the Iron Throne which is supported by the remaining few commoners and petty lords leftover.

Lol That's some imagination I have, I came up with all of that on the spot. It's honestly not what I think will happen but knowing George, you can never quite predict where he wants to bring the series so we shall see.
 
Isn't Jon dead? Or is it just assumed that GRRM will bring him back to life / reveal that he was just grievously wounded?

I think grievously wounded is more likely. One thing about Martin that is set in stone is his story telling abilities. It is less obvious assumption at this point at least.
 

bengraven

Member
Two of your three predictions include Tyrion sitting the throne.

Never.

He may end up ruling Casterly Rock - that's what he seems to want, more than a throne, but I don't see him ever, ever becoming king. I think he'd be good at it, but I don't see it happening.

I agree that the Starks won't get the throne. Rickon will become Lord of Winterfell. Arya will probably go off exploring the world, Sansa will marry someone (She may end up on the throne, but I think this is unlikely).

Isn't Jon dead? Or is it just assumed that GRRM will bring him back to life / reveal that he was just grievously wounded?

Just theorizing with my mental mind.


Was just rereading ASoS today, and Tywin actually says to Tyrion that a marriage that is not consummated can be put aside. So, it's very easy to break up the Sansa/Tyrion marriage if that is GRRM's desire.

Ah, very true, very true.

So then Jon can marry Sansa!
 
If the document declaring Jon's legitimacy that Robb had his lords sign ever turns up what happens to the pecking order for the heir of Winterfell? As the eldest is Jon before or after the trueborn children? I think Jon would make the best leader out of all of them but a small part of me would like to see Sansa declare herself as Queen in the North and be the younger and more beautiful queen who takes everything from Cersei.
 
If the document declaring Jon's legitimacy that Robb had his lords sign ever turns up what happens to the pecking order for the heir of Winterfell? As the eldest is Jon before or after the trueborn children? I think Jon would make the best leader out of all of them but a small part of me would like to see Sansa declare herself as Queen in the North and be the younger and more beautiful queen who takes everything from Cersei.

This is never confirmed. We don't know who Robb legitimized. He often argued with Catelyn privately before ultimately siding with her advice publicly.
 

Iksenpets

Banned
I think it ends up with no one on the throne. The seven kingdoms split up. Maybe one or two end up merging, but for the most part the status quo ante from before the Conquest returns.

It was only overwhelming military strength that originally united the kingdoms, and once the dragons died out it was just a matter of time before someone got uppity and usurped power from the Targaryens. At that point, the legitimacy of the throne is tarnished and you're pretty much doomed to eternal civil war as the various houses vie for control.

Dany taking the throne with her dragons seems possible, but I feel like that wouldn't be a satisfying end because it wouldn't feel like a long term stable position. Eventually this new line of dragons will for out too, and then the cycle of decay starts again. Plus, Dany doesn't seem to have the sort of brutality needed to effectively use the dragons in beating a nation into submission.

Seven indecent kingdoms, on the other hand, existed for thousands of years and had a natural balance of power between them. That would make the end of the books feel like the end of an era instead of just leaving you wondering what terrible fate eventually awaits the heirs to King Whoever whenever the country has healed enough to muster up an army to overthrow them.

It also allows the ending to be more satisfying for more people, there's more people's favorite characters who can now be called kings, but is at the same time sad, since all of these kings have lost loved ones in the war and have witnessed the collapse of the country they had been born to.
 
Was just rereading ASoS today, and Tywin actually says to Tyrion that a marriage that is not consummated can be put aside. So, it's very easy to break up the Sansa/Tyrion marriage if that is GRRM's desire.

Ahh, nice catch. I've been wondering what happens if Sansa marries the heir to The Eyrie (assuming Robin dies), and Tyrion comes back to Westeros. I also thought that Tyrion being declared guilty of murdering the king and sentenced to death would annul his marriage.

If the document declaring Jon's legitimacy that Robb had his lords sign ever turns up what happens to the pecking order for the heir of Winterfell? As the eldest is Jon before or after the trueborn children? I think Jon would make the best leader out of all of them but a small part of me would like to see Sansa declare herself as Queen in the North and be the younger and more beautiful queen who takes everything from Cersei.

I've wondered this as well. Assuming the he named Jon his heir, does that mean the he is ahead of Bran and Rickon in the line of succession even if they are found alive? We already know one northern lord knows they are alive.

This is never confirmed. We don't know who Robb legitimized. He often argued with Catelyn privately before ultimately siding with her advice publicly.

Hmm, never really thought of the possibility of it being anyone else. Who else would he name though?
 
Hmm, never really thought of the possibility of it being anyone else. Who else would he name though.

He could have easily gone with some distant relative like Catelyn suggested. At this point, I just don't really see what narrative purpose Robb legitimatizing Jon would achieve. Jon already turned down the offer Stannis gave him and came to the conclusion that he wasn't a Stark.
 

apana

Member
I don't really care about how it ends up politically. If they do somehow manage to survive this wintery apocalypse that is coming for them then I suppose I could see Aegon and Sansa or Dany with someone else. I'm more interested in the fantasy aspect, who are the Others and what do they want? What secrets is Bloodraven hiding and what is Bran's destiny? I think Meera and Jojen were killed and turned into paste. :(

edit: Rickong=Lord of Winterfell

If he survives he will be able to unite wildlings and northerners since he seems to be a crazy wild kid himself and is living with cannibals.
 
He could have easily gone with some distant relative like Catelyn suggested. At this point, I just don't really see what narrative purpose Robb legitimatizing Jon would achieve. Jon already turned down the offer Stannis gave him and came to the conclusion that he wasn't a Stark.

I think that the offer would be different if it came from Robb himself though. I'm sure part of his decision to turn down Stannis' offer was that he was basically paying his way into the Stark family, which the Starks consent or knowledge. I think an offer from Robb himself is different.

I think that document naming Robb's heir will have a role in the next novels.
 
This is never confirmed. We don't know who Robb legitimized. He often argued with Catelyn privately before ultimately siding with her advice publicly.

Yeah, I'm sure that he named some distant cousin from the Vale as his successor. And him laying a trap for Catelyn at the meeting was just so that he could agree with her.
 
Finally got around to reading the first Dunk and Egg novella. Oh man, that was so AWESOME. Great little story. Its nice to see some of the other Targaryens that aren't necessarily batshit insane or unlikeable. Now to read the other two.
 
I think that the offer would be different if it came from Robb himself though. I'm sure part of his decision to turn down Stannis' offer was that he was basically paying his way into the Stark family, which the Starks consent or knowledge. I think an offer from Robb himself is different.

I think that document naming Robb's heir will have a role in the next novels.

Was Bolton at the letter signing meeting? I had hoped we would get some information on it in ADWD given how much screen time Bolton had.

If the letter does name some distant relative, what happens when Sansa reveals herself and Rickon is found? Assuming those two things happen of course
 

sharbhund

Member
Was Bolton at the letter signing meeting? I had hoped we would get some information on it in ADWD given how much screen time Bolton had.

If the letter does name some distant relative, what happens when Sansa reveals herself and Rickon is found? Assuming those two things happen of course

Bolton wasn't there. He was with the other half of Robb's army, and they didn't meet up until the Red Wedding.
 

charsace

Member
Is that a question? How does killing his cousin affect those things?

Makes him look like your average villain. Which he isn't. Because he doesn't really come off like a bad guy in the books. So yeah I also think that was a big change in regards to the character.
 
D

Deleted member 1235

Unconfirmed Member
I've read the books and thought the white walkers and wights were the same thing basically.
How did you get that? White walkers are clearly the brains of the outfit. Craster gives his boys to them to keep piece, wights have 0 intelligence at all.
 
How did you get that? White walkers are clearly the brains of the outfit. Craster gives his boys to them to keep piece, wights have 0 intelligence at all.

I don't think they have 0 intelligence. The wights at Castle Black knew to attack Lord Mormont and the acting First Ranger. In DwD the wights lie hidden in the snow to ambush Bran outside the three-eyed crow's cave.
 

Zabka

Member
Makes him look like your average villain. Which he isn't. Because he doesn't really come off like a bad guy in the books. So yeah I also think that was a big change in regards to the character.

You don't think Jaime Lannister came off as a villain in the first two books? That's strange.
 

bengraven

Member
This talk of Jon - regardless of whether he's legitimized, he's a Brother through and through. Even if by some chance he ends up married and owning Winterfell, he will likely fix the place up, have a couple Stark kids, then fuck off to the Wall again.

Jon will die on the Wall, I promise you that.
 

genjiZERO

Member
This talk of Jon - regardless of whether he's legitimized, he's a Brother through and through. Even if by some chance he ends up married and owning Winterfell, he will likely fix the place up, have a couple Stark kids, then fuck off to the Wall again.

Jon will die on the Wall, I promise you that.

unless there is no more Brotherhood... The Wildlings very well may destroy the Night's Watch for the assassination (attempt?) of Jon. At a minimum there'll be massive rioting.

As far as Winterfell goes though I think it's fairly obvious that Rickon is it's legitimate Lord. But overall I think Winterfell is a minor detail. I fully expect that there will be no more Westeros when it's said and done. Overall, I think Jon is destined for bigger things. That's why I think the idea that he's really Rhaegar and Lyanna's son has credibility.
 

bengraven

Member
Honestly, if the Watch was over I could see Jon himself living in one of the abandoned castles on the line that was once the Wall.

Suddenly I'm picturing an epilogue where he's 50, greying, wearing a black cloak with some red threads, cooking food and cleaning Ice 2, and some rough looking men come walking up to him outside his hut. He brandishes his sword and they all fall to their knees, they've come to find him since they have no where else to go and blah blah he's beginning the Night's Watch all over again.
 

Tuck

Member
Whats the consensus on Benjen Stark?

I kind of think he's alive - GRRM has kept his fate secret for so long that he had to have done something of note up North.

He could very easily be dead. Just seems like 5 books without answer is a long while for a dead guy.
 

TCRS

Banned
That's why I think the idea that he's really Rhaegar and Lyanna's son has credibility.

That reminds me I still didn't get around to reading all the theories and hints in the ASOIAF books regarding Jon's parents. It was quite a long discussion, I started reading it, was very interesting.
 

AngryMoth

Member
That reminds me I still didn't get around to reading all the theories and hints in the ASOIAF books regarding Jon's parents. It was quite a long discussion, I started reading it, was very interesting.
You should read this for a full breakdown.

It's the sort of thing which sounds totally crackpot if you haven't picked it up while reading, but when you actually look at the evidence its so overwhelming that its basically considered canon. If the theory isn't true it will be one of the biggest and longest running red herrings in history.
 

TCRS

Banned
Wow! You could never tell by simply reading the book. I'm now firmly in the Rhaegar-Lyanna camp. Thanks for the link.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
You should read this for a full breakdown.

It's the sort of thing which sounds totally crackpot if you haven't picked it up while reading, but when you actually look at the evidence its so overwhelming that its basically considered canon. If the theory isn't true it will be one of the biggest and longest running red herrings In history.

I think this quote:
He remembered Rhaegar’s infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry’s audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.
---GoT, pg. 199

Now this is interesting. Why in the world would Eddard compare Sansa pleading for Lady’s life to Lyanna pleading to be buried in Winterfell--especially in the context of Robert’s hatred of Targaryens? This references makes absolutely no sense unless one accepts that Lyanna was pleading to keep Jon’s identity secret from Robert.
Was where I bought it
 

Victarion

Member
Lol, people are hating on Jon in the non-spoiler thread, can't blame them though. The show is just making him look like a stupid emo kid. And I hate stuff like this, since he's my favorite character.
 
Show has fucked up Jon's story, hopefully they fix it.

Show Jon isn't fit to lead the Wall. Show Jon isn't fit to run Masha Heddle's inn. And that bitch is dead. And the place is run by some little girl and a blacksmith apprentice.
 
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