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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

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Emerson

Emerson

May contain jokes =>
LuchaShaq said:
I think it turns Robb/cat from characters who did dumb things out of grief for their family to simply two dumbasses who deserve to get fucked over (not as bad as they will though.)


Honestly without doing something absurd like making Robb survive the red wedding, or make Strong Belwas warg into a dragon I'm not sure a change could be much larger. It fundamentally changes the motivations/intelligence levels of two of the biggest characters in the season/series.
Click to expand...

Right, but this is exactly what was originally said. Somebody (100% incorrectly) said that they didn't think HBO would have the balls for the Red Wedding at all. Someone replied that GRRM wouldn't let them fuck it up that badly.
 
S

Steelyuhas

Member
PhoenixDark said:
The wolf's head isn't even shown in the book, of course it won't be in the show. There might be a mention of it by Joffery though.

Given some of the disappointment I sense from new viewers of S2, I really wonder how they'll handle the RW. Seems like many people are also rather down on Robb compared to S1, but I'm sure they're still ultimately rooting for his cause. Once the RW happens...there aren't many people to root for. I'm going to assume the show will continue to handle Dany poorly, but Jon's arc should get better. Then there's Tyrion, but he gets fucked in ASOS too obviously. I think the show is going to run out of likable characters for people and interest will decline.
Click to expand...

Yeah they handled Robb so damn well in season 1. Everyone (including myself) thought Robb was the greatest thing to ever walk the earth, but they really did a poor job with him in season 2. They needed to show his military tactics and campaign, and they made it look like he was just hanging out in a camp all the time, not going anywhere, without a plan. I think most people still like him and his cause, but they really killed the height of his likability during the course of season 2.

I really hope they give his season 2 some sort of redemption by not cutting the conversations between him, Blackfish, and Edmure about what their plan was going west and how Edmure fucked the whole thing up. I was crushed reading that in the book, realizing that without his fuck up, Robb and the Blackfish's plan was quite good and they could have defeated Tywin and Stannis could have taken Kings Landing if Edmure had followed orders. I afraid that given they've tried to pretty much avoid anything to do with Robb's war, they'll just fucking cut that as well.

I think they need to put some significant emphasis on scenes involving discussions of war planning for the future once they get back to Riverrun in season 3, and how they plan to take back the North, in order to attempt to reestablish some Robb badassery before they kill him.

I think there is a good chance we see the wolf head personally. Speaking of the red wedding, I've been rereading parts of ASOS, and I'm getting up the point of the wedding and I kind of just had to stop reading. I honestly don't know if I can read that again.
 
L

Levi

Banned
There's a show thread to talk about the dumb HBO show. There is even one that pretends the books don't exist. Can't we pretend the show doesn't exist in book threads?
 
Q

q_q

Member
VsRobot said:
There's a show thread to talk about the dumb HBO show. There is even one that pretends the books don't exist. Can't we pretend the show doesn't exist in book threads?
Click to expand...

The problem is though that it's a hassle to talk about how things from future books will be handled in the show in the show thread. Too many people to accidentally spoil on things. It's easier to discuss here. Especially since without the show this thread would be dead until the next book comes out in five years.
 
S

Steelyuhas

Member
VsRobot said:
There's a show thread to talk about the dumb HBO show. There is even one that pretends the books don't exist. Can't we pretend the show doesn't exist in book threads?
Click to expand...

q_q said:
The problem is though that it's a hassle to talk about how things from future books will be handled in the show in the show thread. Too many people to accidentally spoil on things. It's easier to discuss here. Especially since without the show this thread would be dead until the next book comes out in five years.
Click to expand...

Yeah this is really the best place to discuss future seasons of the TV show.
 
L

Levi

Banned
q_q said:
The problem is though that it's a hassle to talk about how things from future books will be handled in the show in the show thread. Too many people to accidentally spoil on things. It's easier to discuss here. Especially since without the show this thread would be dead until the next book comes out in five years.
Click to expand...

It might be a hassle but discussion of the show belongs there. Non-readers have their own thread, if they can't be arsed to read a book or two I won't shed a tear if they accidentally read a decade old "spoiler".

In my opinion, there's plenty to talk about in the actual text. However, if the ASOIAF community here only wants to discuss the mummer's farce that is HBO's adaptation, I won't stop you! I'll just spend my spare time building a time machine so I can prevent the show from ever being made. :)
 
C

Count of Monte Sawed-Off

un33dab@dpu$$y
VsRobot said:
It might be a hassle but discussion of the show belongs there. Non-readers have their own thread, if they can't be arsed to read a book or two I won't shed a tear if they accidentally read a decade old "spoiler".

In my opinion, there's plenty to talk about in the actual text. However, if the ASOIAF community here only wants to discuss the mummer's farce that is HBO's adaptation, I won't stop you! I'll just spend my spare time building a time machine so I can prevent the show from ever being made. :)
Click to expand...

The show will be worth it for the hilarity that the AFFC / ADWD seasons will bring. And who knows, maybe they'll get back on track next season and deliver something good. I have my doubts but it's a possibility.
 
A

apana

Member
VsRobot said:
It might be a hassle but discussion of the show belongs there. Non-readers have their own thread, if they can't be arsed to read a book or two I won't shed a tear if they accidentally read a decade old "spoiler".

In my opinion, there's plenty to talk about in the actual text. However, if the ASOIAF community here only wants to discuss the mummer's farce that is HBO's adaptation, I won't stop you! I'll just spend my spare time building a time machine so I can prevent the show from ever being made. :)
Click to expand...

We can't have a million different threads. This is basically the thread where you can discuss anything without restrictions.

Emerson said:
There's absolutely no way they actually show Robb with Grey Wind's head sown on.
Click to expand...

If they have any guts they will. What happened to all this talk about how there are no restrictions and they can show the content they want to show? Does it only apply to beautiful women, or does it apply to everything?
 
L

LuchaShaq

Banned
Emerson said:
Right, but this is exactly what was originally said. Somebody (100% incorrectly) said that they didn't think HBO would have the balls for the Red Wedding at all. Someone replied that GRRM wouldn't let them fuck it up that badly.
Click to expand...

.
My point was HBO won't change that but if martin lets them make two of the victims in it change from understandably grief filled good guys to downright bafoons I don't see why he would bother stopping anything else.

He also let HBO change the direwolves from obvious (if they are agitated shit is going bad) to downright useless. Look at Jon, there were multiple times ghost would have killed people or gotten himself killed if Jon was in that situation. So far outside of two greywind scenes the direwolves have been as useful as a painted sigil.


Back to the books.


For one of the less important things I'm really worried/intrigued what will happen with Meera/Jojen. Is Jojen on deaths door? Is Meera going to spent all winter doing nothing in Bran's cave turning his cute crush into something tragic when she starts to hate him for wasting years of her life in that cave/costing her jojens life? Will they get back to Howland Reed and will he tell anyone about Jon and did he/anyone get the letter legitimizing Jon as Robb's Heir?
 
T

timetokill

Banned
I finished ADWD a couple weeks ago, so I am one of you now! Here are my thoughts:

- Man, was ADWD slow. And the editing was pretty awful.

- I keep waiting for when Bran wargs into a dragon. Figure Book 7.
- Arya is awesome
- R+L=J
- Jon and Dany are gonna fuck at some point, seems to me
- I like reading about the people from Dorne and the Martells, except for Quentyn, who I am not sad at all about
- I used to hate the Sansa chapters, but I love the Alayne/Sansa chapters. But it seems everyone becomes cooler around Littlefinger
- As a general rule, Dany needs to fucking get on with it already
- I want to read more about the rebels hanging dudes, they're some of the best characters

The wait is going to suck. I just hope GRRM manages to get them out.

Oh, and I think they're going to do the wolf head sewn on for sure, on the show.
 
C

CassSept

Member
I've just stumbled upon something interesting that wasn't mentioned here.

GRRM was at MisCon and there he read two chapters - nothing new there, Victarion and Tyrion chapters we've heard of before.

However, in the Q&A session he finally answered the question of Brienne's last words in AFFC.

Warning, as this is strictly TWOW spoiler concerning Brienne and Jaime's arc!
"SWORD". Kind of anticlimactic, eh. That means she did indeed go to Jaime to bring him to UnCat.
Later on he also confirmed that Pod wasn't hung and his fate depends on Brienne now.
 
B

Binabik15

Member
apana said:
We can't have a million different threads. This is basically the thread where you can discuss anything without restrictions.
/QUOTE]


No. If people spoil me even more on Winds without a spoiler tag I'll hop on a plane and gut them.

A mod should edit the title to explicitely exclude Winds from the no tags needed policy.
Click to expand...
 
T

theignoramus

Member
I just finished Dance. and Im left wanting more....so much more. the last two books, the ending didnt feel liken an ending, but rather abrupt cut offs. GRRM is lucky he's a strong writer, cause the structure of the last two books hasnt been very good.

As far as Dance goes:
+Young Griff/Aegon Targaryen and Jon Connington are fucking awesome additions
+Tyrion delivers as usual
+Arya killing the old merchant was a nice touch
+Barristan Selmy's chapters were awesome
+Bran's chapters, which bored me in previous books, are great
+Reek's chapters were great, Ramsay and Roose are horrifying and fascinating at he same time: Says Roose to Ramsay "Dont make me rue the day I raped your mother"
good god.
+Cersei, hahahahahah, eat it, you vile woman.
Asha was okay
Victarion was alright. Kind of a predictably brutish thug, but I was interested in reading about his voyage.
Jon was kind of boring up until the point he received Ramsay's letter.

-Not enough Melisandre
-Dany was a letdown. Between the "Harpy" angle and her constant day dreaming about Daario, it was really a chore to get through some of her chapters. It feels like she's done fuck all for the past two books. I seriously wonder how HBO is gunna handle that. Maybe they'll get creative and do some flashbacks to Mad Aerys and Rhaegar vis a vis Barristan. better that than made up, low budget Mereen drama that will inevitably be a bore to watch
-I didnt appreciate ending exactly where we left off in AFFC with the Jaime/Brienne arc. Like, really? C'mon man. This annoyed me way more than the imminent battles not making the cut.




Anyway, so there's four chapters of the Winds of Winter out there?
 
A

apana

Member
Binabik15 said:
No. If people spoil me even more on Winds without a spoiler tag I'll hop on a plane and gut them.

A mod should edit the title to explicitely exclude Winds from the no tags needed policy.
Click to expand...
Oh yeah I should have added that caveat. Winds of Winter is the obvious exception since it hasn't been released yet, people definitely need to use spoiler tags when discussing any plot details from the book.
 
bengraven

bengraven

Member
Speaking of Jojen, I forgot that he had Grayscale when he was younger.

In his childhood Jojen, nearly died of greyscale fever. While he was near death, he was visited by a Three-eyed crow that gave him the gift of greensight, causing him to experience prophetic dreams.

Between him and Shireen, there's totally going to be a grayscale plague north of the wall at some point.

CassSept said:
Warning, as this is strictly TWOW spoiler concerning Brienne and Jaime's arc!
"SWORD". Kind of anticlimactic, eh. That means she did indeed go to Jaime to bring him to UnCat.
Later on he also confirmed that Pod wasn't hung and his fate depends on Brienne now.
Click to expand...


Oooooooh shit.

Now I want to read this chapter right fucking now.
 
R

Rekubot

Member
28 Posts Later said:
There's a theory that Jojen is already dead; that he is an ingredient in the Weirwood paste Bran eats.
Click to expand...
Haha, what gave people that idea? I never thought the twins were in danger after reading ADWD, though it was a while ago...

bengraven said:
Oooooooh shit.

Now I want to read this chapter right fucking now.
Click to expand...
Fuck, I really want to highlight this. I'm pretty sure about what it is she said, but is the answer ridiculously unexpected and spoilery or something we could work out from reading AFFC?
 
T

Tuck

Member
CassSept said:
I've just stumbled upon something interesting that wasn't mentioned here.

GRRM was at MisCon and there he read two chapters - nothing new there, Victarion and Tyrion chapters we've heard of before.

However, in the Q&A session he finally answered the question of Brienne's last words in AFFC.

Warning, as this is strictly TWOW spoiler concerning Brienne and Jaime's arc!
"SWORD". Kind of anticlimactic, eh. That means she did indeed go to Jaime to bring him to UnCat.
Later on he also confirmed that Pod wasn't hung and his fate depends on Brienne now.
Click to expand...

Pod is alive! Great!

Though I'm not sure how screaming that would have helped her at all.

EDIT: SORRY! I should have spoilered that!
 
bengraven

bengraven

Member
Rekubot said:
Haha, what gave people that idea? I never thought the twins were in danger after reading ADWD, though it was a while ago...


Fuck, I really want to highlight this. I'm pretty sure about what it is she said, but is the answer ridiculously unexpected and spoilery or something we could work out from reading AFFC?
Click to expand...

You could flip a coin and get the solution in AFFC. Or you could be wrong. It's one of those did she or did she not things.

That said, having read ADWD you might have been able to figure it out.

That's your hint.
 
2

28 Posts Later

Member
Rekubot said:
Haha, what gave people that idea? I never thought the twins were in danger after reading ADWD, though it was a while ago...
Click to expand...

When singers die they become part of that godhood.”
Bran’s eyes widened. “They’re going to kill me?”
“No,” Meera said. “Jojen, you’re scaring him.”
“He is not the one who needs to be afraid.”
Click to expand...

“He wants to go home,” Meera told Bran. “He will not even try and fight his fate. He says the greendreams do not lie.”
“He’s being brave,” said Bran. The only time a man can be brave is when he is afraid, his father had told him once, long ago, on the day they found the direwolf pups in the summer snows. He still remembered.
“He’s being stupid,” Meera said. “I’d hoped that when we found your three-eyed crow … now I wonder why we ever came.”
For me, Bran thought. “His greendreams,” he said.
“His greendreams.” Meera’s voice was bitter.
“Hodor,” said Hodor. Meera began to cry.
Click to expand...

Jojen is defiantly going to die, if he is not dead already.

The boy looked at the bowl uncertainly. “What is it?” “A paste of weirwood seeds.” Something about the look of it made Bran feel ill. The red veins were only weirwood sap, he supposed, but in the torchlight they looked remarkably like blood. He dipped the spoon into the paste, then hesitated. “Will this make me a greenseer?” “Your blood makes you a greenseer,” said Lord Brynden. “This will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees.”
Click to expand...

There're a lot of hints to the idea that Jojen was killed though. Martin describes the moon as a knife constantly in that final Bran chapter. The description of the lines in the paste as 'blood'. The fact Bran could 'taste the blood' in the final lines of the chapter, nor find the Reeds after it had been eaten. They eat 'Pig' after the event. Bran sees a sacrifice through the Weirwood tree. Theon hears crying through the Weirwood. Jojen's growing depression, despite his regained strength, the closer they get to the cave.

Cannibalism is a constant theme in ADwD. The idea is that Jojen sacrifices himself to develop Bran's powers.

I'm taking everything from this thread if you wish to simply read through the discussion [one of many on the subject].
 
bengraven

bengraven

Member
Martin: We need Jojen and Meera.

D and D: nah, we'll just have Osha play that role.

Martin: NO. Osha takes Rickon to the Isle of Skagos. It's important.

D and D: well then maybe the three eyed crow guides Bran and Hodor there alone.

Martin: LISTEN MOTHERFUCKERS. Bran EATS Jojen to become Super Bran. It's CANON and...

D and D: ...and we need to announce to EW that we're casting Meera and Jojen...*look at each other* YES, we finally get some cannibalism! *high five*
 
bengraven

bengraven

Member
Oh so Jojen was having shaking fits. I wonder if he's having the side effects of eating human flesh earlier in the book.

I know what I'm naming my male Witch Doctor in D3 now.
 
N

Nlroh

Member
Wait what?
I rushed through ADWD, never picked that about Jojen. I knew he was going to die, but Bran eating him? fuck, it seems reasonable enough.
 
P

Pecan1

Banned
Different subject than the Jojen stuff, but I wanted to mention how awesome this Arya chapter in the middle of SoS just was.

When Arya meets Ned Dayne and shes like you have a house?? Then Gendry rides up and is complaining about Lords and Ladies, that shit is so awesome . Never really understood how cool that was in the first read. Make me wish there was more Ned and Robert stuff
 
T

tmdorsey

Member
Good Lord on the Jojen stuff. The thought never even crossed my mind that Bran would have eaten him. Jeez.


theignoramus said:
I just finished Dance. and Im left wanting more....so much more. the last two books, the ending didnt feel liken an ending, but rather abrupt cut offs. GRRM is lucky he's a strong writer, cause the structure of the last two books hasnt been very good.

As far as Dance goes:
+Young Griff/Aegon Targaryen and Jon Connington are fucking awesome additions
+Tyrion delivers as usual
+Arya killing the old merchant was a nice touch
+Barristan Selmy's chapters were awesome
+Bran's chapters, which bored me in previous books, are great
+Reek's chapters were great, Ramsay and Roose are horrifying and fascinating at he same time: Says Roose to Ramsay "Dont make me rue the day I raped your mother"
good god.
+Cersei, hahahahahah, eat it, you vile woman.
Asha was okay
Victarion was alright. Kind of a predictably brutish thug, but I was interested in reading about his voyage.
Jon was kind of boring up until the point he received Ramsay's letter.

-Not enough Melisandre
-Dany was a letdown. Between the "Harpy" angle and her constant day dreaming about Daario, it was really a chore to get through some of her chapters. It feels like she's done fuck all for the past two books. I seriously wonder how HBO is gunna handle that. Maybe they'll get creative and do some flashbacks to Mad Aerys and Rhaegar vis a vis Barristan. better that than made up, low budget Mereen drama that will inevitably be a bore to watch
-I didnt appreciate ending exactly where we left off in AFFC with the Jaime/Brienne arc. Like, really? C'mon man. This annoyed me way more than the imminent battles not making the cut.
Click to expand...


How could you forget about "The North remembers?"
 
L

Lax Mike

Neo Member
28 Posts Later said:
The idea is that Jojen sacrifices himself to develop Bran's powers.
Click to expand...
I'm thinking that his sacrifice wasn't so much willing as it was the Children murdering him.

When singers die they become part of that godhood.”
Bran’s eyes widened. “They’re going to kill me?”
“No,” Meera said. “Jojen, you’re scaring him.”
“He is not the one who needs to be afraid.”
Click to expand...

This quote really makes me think that Jojen suspects that he and Meera are in danger, rather than Bran. Something just never felt right to me about the Children, as they give off a really creepy vibe all throughout the time we read about them.
 
bengraven

bengraven

Member
Well...that fits into George's feelings that there are no good or evil people in this world. There apparently are just good or just evil supernatural beings either.
 
M

Maffis

Member
Wow that shit's dark if true. Didn't catch that on my read. I wonder what Ned would have thought if he had found out the children were cannibalistic.
 
I

Iksenpets

Banned
Holy shit that Jojen theory. I wish it weren't so believable because that has me bummed out.

Is it just because I read all five books back to back and so didn't participate in any of the online discussion after the other four, or are there a lot more things implied but not confirmed in Dance than there were in other books? Jon's false death, Jojen's apparent death, the Frey pies, the theory about Victarion's death and undeath, the theory about the Damphair's childhood abuse from Euron, the theories about Tyrion's wife being one of the consorts in Braavos, are all ones just off the top of my head. Maybe it's just the increasing supernaturalness of the story that's doing it, but it all seems way less straightforward than it was in the earlier books, where the only subtextual stuff outside of the various prophesies was really R+L=J and maybe the implications that Balon was killed by a Faceless Man. Maybe I'm just not remembering as much of the earlier stuff though though since I got to quickly have it confirmed by reading the next books.
 
1

1138

Member
gate777 said:
What's everyone's guess on when Winds of Winter will release? I'm anxious to continue the story.
Click to expand...

Hoping for 2014 myself given that "the knot" has been solved and that the pressure from the show might speed things up a bit.

SoS part 1: 2013
SoS part 2: 2014
aFFC: 2015
aDwD: 2016
WoW: 2017
aDoS: 2018 (starts shooting in 2017)

Might be too optimistic, but a man can dream.
 
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