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[Rei_Toei]

The last time she tried getting the help of another great house she ended up married to Tyrion. Not surprising that she would not want to put herself out there again.

Referring to the Tyrell or Lannisters? I mean, Sansa told Dontos about the wedding proposal of the Tyrell, who passed it on to Littlefinger, who informed Cersei/Tywin (if I remember correctly). So really, she once again mucked that up herself but I don't really remember if she understands the position both houses take because at that time she didn't know Dontos was Littlefinger's man. By the time she's in the Vale, she does know this but I don't think she realizes she basically has Littlefinger to thank for the marriage to Tyrion.

While rereading Littlefinger's plotting in the Vale, it just struck me as odd Sansa wouldn't be more assertive. Arya now and then displays quite some knowledge of the historical bonds between the houses, Sansa - supposedly more ladylike - sure as hell knows of the Stark/Arryn history. The Vale joined Roberts rebellion early on while the Lannisters had a wait and see approach and Tyrell stayed loyal to Targaryen. So yes, shit went FUBAR for her trusting the Lannisters and falling for the charming Tyrells was just as naive, but here's a house with 'As High As Honor', connected to both Stark and Tully, and stayed neutral up till now. Sansa has some chapters in Winds of Winter, right? Quite curious to see if she sticks to Littlefinger's play or branches out to play her own.

 

[beril]

Finnished reading ADWD

So are Jon and Stannis really dead? Most people seem convinced that neither is.

I've learned not to trust when someone is reported dead just through a message, and Bolton isn't exactly the most trustworthy person. Plus if the battle went as well as he claimed how the hell did Theon and fake-Arya get away.

I'm really not sure how Jon is supposed to survive repeated stabbing in the stomach though. I never cared much for him but after hundreds of pages I would feel cheated if his arc ended like this without more interting results, and his murder just seemed a bit random and stupid.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

Finnished reading ADWD

So are Jon and Stannis really dead? Most people seem convinced that neither is.

I've learned not to trust when someone is reported dead just through a message, and Bolton isn't exactly the most trustworthy person. Plus if the battle went as well as he claimed how the hell did Theon and fake-Arya get away.

I'm really not sure how Jon is supposed to survive repeated stabbing in the stomach though. I never cared much for him but after hundreds of pages I would feel cheated if his arc ended like this without more interting results, and his murder just seemed a bit random and stupid.

Read the prologue again. Relate it to Jon's last chapter. Scratch you real/imaginary beard.

 

[Majmun]

Wikipedia spoiled Robb's and Joff's death for me..

I somehow clicked on the wrong ASOIAF book link and immediately read this:

The War of the Five Kings is coming to an end. Robb Stark, Joffrey Baratheon, Renly Baratheon, and Balon Greyjoy are all dead,

That was before reading ASOS. I was pissed.

But I'd be a mess if I had experienced the RW without being warned beforehand lol

-edit

Holy shit, I almost thought I posted that in the *NO BOOK SPOILERS* thread. Phew!

 

[Pkaz01]

Read the prologue again. Relate it to Jon's last chapter. Scratch you real/imaginary beard.

or just read everything Mel says to him. because she pretty much describes the death scene in the very first chapter, and then goes on to say that she is going to save his life.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

or just read everything Mel says to him. because she pretty much describes the death scene in the very first chapter, and then goes on to say that she is going to save his life.

Sure, if you want to be boring.

 

[beril]

Read the prologue again. Relate it to Jon's last chapter. Scratch you real/imaginary beard.

Would Jon really be able to do that though? Bran could probably have jumped into anyone he liked, but Jon has never really done any skinchanging apart from a few dreams. Even if he manages to slip into Ghost how much further can his story arc really go from there?

 

[Emerson]

Would Jon really be able to do that though? Bran could probably have jumped into anyone he liked, but Jon has never really done any skinchanging apart from a few dreams. Even if he manages to slip into Ghost how much further can his story arc really go from there?

Red Priests have demonstrated the ability to resurrect people, and Melisandre is right there.

 

[Maffis]

Red Priests have demonstrated the ability to resurrect people, and Melisandre is right there.

Pretty much.

 

[Pkaz01]

What I find interesting about that whole situation is that she knows about warging but doesn't mind it. Seemed like she had some powers similar to wargs when she took control of ghost or whatever she did.

 

[endre]

hmm... What is the estimate, how many times was Berric resurrected?

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Would Jon really be able to do that though? Bran could probably have jumped into anyone he liked, but Jon has never really done any skinchanging apart from a few dreams. Even if he manages to slip into Ghost how much further can his story arc really go from there?

Mel has a vision of Jon as a man then he turns into a wolf then becomes a man again.

 

[tokkun]

hmm... What is the estimate, how many times was Berric resurrected?

I don't recall what they say about it in the dialog with Thoros, but it's at least 4 times:
-Lance through the chest
-Knife in the eye
-Hanged
-Sword from the Hound

 

[LuchaShaq]

That would be the smartest thing he could do but at this point he is being creepy and thinking with his dick. His obsession for Sansa is going to be his downfall. Plus she is still married to tyrion, and if rickon is found she loses her marriage value.

Tyrion/Sansa never consummated the marriage and it was publicly known/a joke among the court of King's Landing.

 

[Tuck]

Red Priests have demonstrated the ability to resurrect people, and Melisandre is right there.

Yeah. Melisandre took an interest in Jon for some reason. I highly doubt she would just stand idley by and do nothing.

 

[LuchaShaq]

Yeah. Melisandre took an interest in Jon for some reason..

There are two super obvious reasons why.

He is the leader of the first line of defense against the others aka her most hated/feared enemy.

Whenever she looked for Azor Ahai "All I see is Snow/snow".

 

[endre]

So four times confirmed, and as many times mentioned that he cannot be killed. At least, i think so. The reason I am asking this is that I want to have some idea how much of ones individuality is lost when a person is resurrected.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

It'd be different for Jon in theory since he never really died and would be living through Ghost.

 

[Lax Mike]

hmm... What is the estimate, how many times was Berric resurrected?

According to the wiki, he was resurrected 6 times, and his seventh death was when he revived Cat.

 

[Seguin]

So four times confirmed, and as many times mentioned that he cannot be killed. At least, i think so. The reason I am asking this is that I want to have some idea how much of ones individuality is lost when a person is resurrected.

I think it depends on how long they had been dead

 

[Emerson]

So four times confirmed, and as many times mentioned that he cannot be killed. At least, i think so. The reason I am asking this is that I want to have some idea how much of ones individuality is lost when a person is resurrected.

It certainly seems to get worse with multiple resurrections, and it also seems to maybe be worse when the character was dead for longer (e.g. Cat). I think it was implied that Beric was pretty normal after his first return to life?

 

[endre]

It certainly seems to get worse with multiple resurrections, and it also seems to maybe be worse when the character was dead for longer (e.g. Cat). I think it was implied that Beric was pretty normal after his first return to life?

Yes, I agree with the bold part. I'd add that the damage dealt plays a role. So a person first time resurrected can be himself if he/she was saved in time? (Emerson has already stated his opinion, how many share it? I think i do).

 

[ahoyhoy]

It certainly seems to get worse with multiple resurrections, and it also seems to maybe be worse when the character was dead for longer (e.g. Cat). I think it was implied that Beric was pretty normal after his first return to life?

Yeah, that seems to have been hinted at in aSoS, though I would like to reread the descriptions of how the resurrections worked more closely.

 

[KingK]

I'm pretty sure something terrible is going to happen to either Arya or Dany before the end of the series, both of them won't survive. It's going to be brutal reading it.

I want Dany to die and Arya to live for the whole series. Which means, of course, that Arya will die a terrible death and Dany will end up on the Iron Throne.

 

[Tuck]

This is likely. Davos will find Rickon in book 7 and Rickon will return to Westeros in book 9.

Bu-bu-but theres only gonna be 7 books...

=(

 

[bodyofanamerican]

Interesting Stannis theory/discussion
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.ph...m-fire-to-ice-the-story-of-stannis-baratheon/

A rather different theory than what we tend to discuss in relation to Stannis being the last Night's Watch commander, and ultimately giving his life to (try to) stop the Others. Stannis has done some pretty shady things to secure his crown, including fratricide. But would he sell his soul to the Others, and ultimately damn the entire realm just to be king? It's possible, but I tend to think it's more likely that he'd fight against The Others.

Would you mind giving a topline description of the theory? Stupid westeros.org is 500-ing. Or is the theory what you refer to there, selling out to the Others vs. dying?

 

[theignoramus]

I do think it's pretty cliche for the free cities (ie. brown people) to be a slave driving, exotic, repulsive kind of freak show (minus Braavos!)
I cant but help taste the orientalism with so many characters from outside Westeros being monstrously cruel, freakishly weird looking, and violating all manner of civilized conduct.

Foremost amongst them was the Yellow Whale, an obscenely fat man who always wore yellow silk tokars with golden fringes. Too heavy even to stand unassisted, he could not hold his water, so he always smelled of piss, a stench so sharp that even heavy perfumes could not conceal it. But he was said to be the richest man in Yunkai, and he had a passion for grotesques; his slaves included a boy with the
legs and hooves of a goat, a bearded woman, a two-headed monster from Mantarys, and a
hermaphrodite who warmed his bed at night.

so many of the characters from the free cities are shudder inducing freaks.

 

[Basileus777]

Essos being full of orientalist and excoticist stereotypes is one of the larger problems with this series. Culture building isn't really Martin's strongsuit, but the shallowness of Essos and its characters really drags down any storyline involving them.

 

[ultron87]

I found the Melisandre/Stannis scene in tonight's episode to be interesting. She gave another very direct prophecy about his eventual victory and betraying a bunch of people and other such things that isn't in the book and it didn't really seem to match up with what we've seen Stannis do in later books.

I wonder if that was made with some foreknowledge of where GRRM is eventually taking the character.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Would you mind giving a topline description of the theory? Stupid westeros.org is 500-ing. Or is the theory what you refer to there, selling out to the Others vs. dying?

Yes, basically Stannis becoming the Night King. It's unlikely the northern armies will follow him south to claim his throne, especially if Rickon (or Robb's appointed heir) is on the way. The theory basically suggests Stannis will be given the Nightfort, and could be the one to broker a deal with the Others to re-claim Westeros if they make him king.

 

[Lumiere]

I found the Melisandre/Stannis scene in tonight's episode to be interesting. She gave another very direct prophecy about his eventual victory and betraying a bunch of people and other such things that isn't in the book and it didn't really seem to match up with what we've seen Stannis do in later books.

I wonder if that was made with some foreknowledge of where GRRM is eventually taking the character.

I was wondering that too. Was also wondering about the House of the Undying, was the snow on the Iron Throne just there to symbolize that winter is coming etc etc, or was it trying to hint at something specific? And what about Dany on the wall? Replacing the blue flower on the wall maybe?
From what the TV show has done until now I feel like they might just be improvising stuff, but who knows...

 

[ezrarh]

Essos being full of orientalist and excoticist stereotypes is one of the larger problems with this series. Culture building isn't really Martin's strongsuit, but the shallowness of Essos and its characters really drags down any storyline involving them.

All Martin does is copy a bit of everything from the different historical cultures. The problem is he developed all the great characters in Westeros and left Dany with a bunch of terrible people. His characterization is his strong suit but how many people from Essos do you care about?

Also, that Stannis theory is interesting I'll have to read that thread when the site goes back up.

 

[theignoramus]

For whatever fanboy reason, it also annoys me that Dany thinks Ned Stark was some huge asshole, when Barriston could've told her he was a true man of honor. Such a random annoyance, but there it is.

ADWD

“Stark was a traitor who met a traitor’s end.”
“Your Grace,” said Selmy, “Eddard Stark played a part in your father’s fall, but he bore you no ill will. When the eunuch Varys told us that you were with child, Robert wanted you killed, but Lord Stark spoke against it. Rather than countenance the murder of children, he told Robert to find himself another Hand.”
“Have you forgotten Princess Rhaenys and Prince Aegon?”
“Never. That was Lannister work, Your Grace.”
“Lannister or Stark, what difference? Viserys used to call them the Usurper’s dogs. If a child is set upon by a pack of hounds, does it matter which one tears out his throat? All the dogs are just as guilty.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

All Martin does is copy a bit of everything from the different historical cultures. The problem is he developed all the great characters in Westeros and left Dany with a bunch of terrible people. His characterization is his strong suit but how many people from Essos do you care about?

Also, that Stannis theory is interesting I'll have to read that thread when the site goes back up.

Yeah that's always been my problem with Danys storyline. Her non-Westeros supporting characters are generally terrible.

 

[jett]

Can someone explain to me why does Ramsay burn and butcher everyone in Winterfell? For the lulz? Never really understood his motivations.

 

[Veelk]

To be fair to Martin, that's just how strange culture shock works. We see people looking and behaving and doing things that are strange and weird and we don't comprehend it and people often fear what they don't understand.

And remember that he remembered to portray all the Essos people as human beings. That hermaphrodite is the one that helped Tyrion escape in the first place, and even though Westeros is a culture that is far more familiar to us, they aren't any better in the moral department than Essos is.

 

[Basileus777]

Can someone explain to me why does Ramsay burn and butcher everyone in Winterfell? For the lulz? Never really understood his motivations.

Does Ramsey have motivations beyond being an insane sadist?

 

[Duane Cunningham]

Did anyone else think the Other's skin in tonight's finale looked like white tree bark?

 

[bodyofanamerican]

Can someone explain to me why does Ramsay burn and butcher everyone in Winterfell? For the lulz? Never really understood his motivations.

I think the Boltons were always scheming against the Starks (for like, YEARS/generations not just this instance) and took the opportunity to seriously challenge their power in the North with Theon giving them a very convenient and easy person to blame the razing of Winterfell on. I'm also of the mind that Ramsay cleared whatever he did there with Roose.

Edit: yeah, poor choice of words on my part. Challenge vs. destroy.

 

[Matt]

I think the Boltons were always scheming against the Starks (for like, YEARS/generations not just this instance) and took the opportunity to seriously challenge their power in the North with Theon giving them a very convenient excuse to blame it on. I'm also of the mind that Ramsay cleared whatever he did there with Roose.

To destroy all of the Stark's power in the North, the same reason why they killed Rodrik and his loyal Northman.

 

[FStop7]

I wonder how the show audience is going to feel about Dany when she's still dicking around doing the same shit after two or three more seasons.

 

[bearythebear]

I wonder how the show audience is going to feel about Dany when she's still dicking around doing the same shit after two or three more seasons.

She still has that badass moment when she took the Slave Army and used them to kill the slave owners. Probably the peak of her bad-assness.


She'll also go around conquering cities one by one.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

I wonder how the show audience is going to feel about Dany when she's still dicking around doing the same shit after two or three more seasons.

Maybe they'll do the equivalent to what book readers do by going to the restroom while her parts play.

 

[FStop7]

The season 2 finale kind of put things in from the book into perspective.

In GoT when Drogo got pissed over the failed attempt on Dany's life and committed to attacking Westeros it was like "Oh shit it's on now, here we go"

And then a few chapters he was a vegetable.

So now in the S2 finale they raid Ducksauce's house after disposing of him and they're all like "This is enough for a ship" and the audience is going to be all "OK now it's on for REAL this time!" And little do they know that no, in fact it's not on. Not even close. It's been a while since I read ACoK but I don't remember there being a second blatant tease of Dany returning to Westeros. The Qarth stuff has been changed so much for the show, too.

They can't keep this up every season for the series. But in order to stop they have to completely break from the books... the TV audience isn't going to tolerate being continuously yanked around like that, not with year long breaks between seasons.

 

[Blastoise]

Alfie 'Theon' Allen is a fantastic actor. I can't wait for his portrayal of Reek.

 

[Pkaz01]

So since no one in the show thread wants to talk about it why the hell does no one know the stark kids are dead? who is going to tell Arya Beric or the hound? Thinking everyone is dead plays a big part in the trip to Braavos. Same with Robb and Cat knowing they are dead which for some reason in the show no one knows they are even though there are the bodies of two boys hanging in front of winterfell.

 

[jett]

I wonder how the show audience is going to feel about Dany when she's still dicking around doing the same shit after two or three more seasons.

Eh? In ASOS she pretty much goes on a conquering path doing badass, hero-worthy shit. I imagine we'll see a great deal changed for ADWD though.

 

[q_q]

Anyone notice how Dany's visions in the House of the Undying in the show may have been foreshadowing for another Long Winter taking over Westeros? I found it interesting that there was snow outside the destroyed throne room and that Dany refused to touch the throne. I wonder if this might allude to her playing a bigger role in Westeros than just taking the Throne to rule. After all, GRRM has told the writers how the series will end, hasn't he?

 

[Trojita]

Anyone notice how Dany's visions in the House of the Undying in the show may have been foreshadowing for another Long Winter taking over Westeros? I found it interesting that there was snow outside the destroyed throne room and that Dany refused to touch the throne. I wonder if this might allude to her playing a bigger role in Westeros than just taking the Throne to rule. After all, GRRM has told the writers how the series will end, hasn't he?

lol

 

[Lennington]

She still has that badass moment when she took the Slave Army and used them to kill the slave owners. Probably the peak of her bad-assness.


She'll also go around conquering cities one by one.

In the TV series? Yeah, just like Robb went around winning all those battles in S2.