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[Iksenpets]

I like the series very much, but these are the kind of things that fall in the "just accept it" category. I don't remember at any point feeling that Martin has portrayed any actual ruling very well, especially not good ruling.

A good, although not a highly prominent, example of this is Tyrion's stint running the drains of Casterly Rock. He apparently did a brilliant job, but no details were given what he actually did. Another example is Littlefinger. He's a wizard with money, we're told many times, but if I had to give a single example of this wizardry, apparently he has borrowed a lot of money? I don't know anything else he has actually done. Tywin's just the same. As the above poster said, he used his endless resources to restore his family to its former glory. He did this by, uh, being ruthless?

Basically, the characters that are actually good at politics are good because we're told they are.

Tangential, but what are the odds Tyrion will at some point lead an attack on Casterly Rock through the drains? Quite high, I'd say.

I've always assumed that Dany will eventually sail the long way around the world from Asshai and land somewhere around Casterly Rock, and that Tyrion's drainage pipe assault would be her first conquest on Westerosi soil.

 

[Snake]

A question to the seasoned readers....

Am i the only one who doesn't understand why Tywin gets such a huge nod for making his family the most powerful one in the realm?

When you look at the cards in his hands, to me, if he hadn't been top three at any given time, he was a dunce who didn't deserve his title.

His castle sits on working goldmines. And he's lord of the third largest city in the realm.

To me, its not that impressive.

His father Tytos was weak, and under him House Lannister basically had no respect or prestige despite its vast wealth. It was so bad that major noble houses in the Westerlands (House Reyne, Tarbeck, etc) waged rebellion to unseat House Lannister's dominion. Tywin himself led the Lannister forces, crushed all opposition and within a small period of time House Lannister was once again a feared and respected house. By the time he became the head of his House, Tywin was considered one of the most capable men in the Seven Kingdoms, and was appointed hand of the king under Aerys II. His term in the position, around 20 years, is considered a period of sustained economic and political stability. It was said that he was the real power behind the Kingdom, which in addition to other feuds eventually caused Aerys to dismiss Tywin. Not long after Tywin successfully navigated Robert's Rebellion as to put his family further in power, ruling the Kingdom alongside House Baratheon, but with most wealth and power essentially behind House Lannister. Even after the calamitous actions of his nephew and daughter, under Tywin House Lannister won the War of the Five Kings.

But of course, the story isn't over yet.

 

[Massa]

I thought Littlefinger was good with money because he did the opposite of that - he invests it wisely instead of letting it sit. He was basically ahead of the times when it comes to economics.

 

[PhoenixDark]

His father Tytos was weak, and under him House Lannister basically had no respect or prestige despite its vast wealth. It was so bad that major noble houses in the Westerlands (House Reyne, Tarbeck, etc) waged rebellion to unseat House Lannister's dominion. Tywin himself led the Lannister forces, crushed all opposition and within a small period of time House Lannister was once again a feared and respected house. By the time he became the head of his House, Tywin was considered one of the most capable men in the Seven Kingdoms, and was appointed hand of the king under Aerys II. His term in the position, around 20 years, is considered a period of sustained economic and political stability. It was said that he was the real power behind the Kingdom, which in addition to other feuds eventually caused Aerys to dismiss Tywin. Not long after Tywin successfully navigated Robert's Rebellion as to put his family further in power, ruling the Kingdom alongside House Baratheon, but with most wealth and power essentially behind House Lannister. Even after the calamitous actions of his nephew and daughter, under Tywin House Lannister won the War of the Five Kings.

But of course, the story isn't over yet.

this

I'm confused by your argument on this Dunbar, in terms of "just accepting" Tywin was a brilliant leader. The series does a very good job of establishing him as arguably the most influential Westeros figure in 20-30 years. Only Aerys II and Robert Baratheon compare in terms of influence/power imo, and both were failed leaders whereas no one questions Tywin's leadership prowess.

I'd also point out his decision to burn the riverlands crops will have major impact throughout the rest of the series

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

His father Tytos was weak, and under him House Lannister basically had no respect or prestige despite its vast wealth. It was so bad that major noble houses in the Westerlands (House Reyne, Tarbeck, etc) waged rebellion to unseat House Lannister's dominion. Tywin himself led the Lannister forces, crushed all opposition and within a small period of time House Lannister was once again a feared and respected house. By the time he became the head of his House, Tywin was considered one of the most capable men in the Seven Kingdoms, and was appointed hand of the king under Aerys II. His term in the position, around 20 years, is considered a period of sustained economic and political stability. It was said that he was the real power behind the Kingdom, which in addition to other feuds eventually caused Aerys to dismiss Tywin. Not long after Tywin successfully navigated Robert's Rebellion as to put his family further in power, ruling the Kingdom alongside House Baratheon, but with most wealth and power essentially behind House Lannister. Even after the calamitous actions of his nephew and daughter, under Tywin House Lannister won the War of the Five Kings.

But of course, the story isn't over yet.

I thought Littlefinger was good with money because he did the opposite of that - he invests it wisely instead of letting it sit.

What they said

 

[Preachsuh]

His father Tytos was weak, and under him House Lannister basically had no respect or prestige despite its vast wealth. It was so bad that major noble houses in the Westerlands (House Reyne, Tarbeck, etc) waged rebellion to unseat House Lannister's dominion. Tywin himself led the Lannister forces, crushed all opposition and within a small period of time House Lannister was once again a feared and respected house. By the time he became the head of his House, Tywin was considered one of the most capable men in the Seven Kingdoms, and was appointed hand of the king under Aerys II. His term in the position, around 20 years, is considered a period of sustained economic and political stability. It was said that he was the real power behind the Kingdom, which in addition to other feuds eventually caused Aerys to dismiss Tywin. Not long after Tywin successfully navigated Robert's Rebellion as to put his family further in power, ruling the Kingdom alongside House Baratheon, but with most wealth and power essentially behind House Lannister. Even after the calamitous actions of his nephew and daughter, under Tywin House Lannister won the War of the Five Kings.

But of course, the story isn't over yet.

I know the story.

My bewilderment comes from the overrating(imo) of Tywins return to glory.

I guess my point is that when your family is the defacto richest in the realm, due to holding active goldmines and a huge port of business personally, how bad can it really be?

I mean, if someone took the Starks and made them on par with the reach, and as wealthy as the west, i'd say wow they turned the fortunes around.

I just find it hard to see what the big deal is when the lannisters had so things in their favor to begin with.

I'd imagine most houses would rather inherit what Tywin did, rather than someone like the Osgreys or Hollands.

Those are both houses in dire spots.

A disgraced Rothschild vs a Winfrey, if you will.

 

[Snake]

I know the story.

My bewilderment comes from the overrating(imo) of Tywins return to glory.

I guess my point is that when your family is the defacto richest in the realm, due to holding active goldmines and a huge port of business personally, how bad can it really be?

I mean, if someone took the Starks and made them on par with the reach, and as wealthy as the west, i'd say wow they turned the fortunes around.

I just find it hard to see what the big deal is when the lannisters had so things in their favor to begin with.

I'd imagine most houses would rather inherit what Tywin did, rather than someone like the Osgreys or Hollands.

Those are both houses in dire spots.

Money isn't everything if you don't use it effectively (Tytos didn't), and the Lannisters don't have infinite gold. The rebellion against House Lannister wasn't a doomed event either. House Reyne was described as being the 2nd most rich and powerful house in Westerlands at the time, and had the potential to become the new dominant House in that region.

Yes, there are houses that are worse off than Lannister was under Tytos. But the point is that this was one of the biggest houses of the kingdom (out of like 8). And their power and influence had ebbed to the point where their dominance was put in jeopardy. This hadn't really happened since Aegon came and changed the order of things.

At the end of the day when you sum it all together, Tywin brought House Lannister from the brink of being overthrown to being the most powerful and influential House in the Kingdom for almost four decades straight. The Tyrells are described as being almost as rich as the Lannisters, but it's been House Lannister in charge for all this time despite the fact that other major houses could easily outmatch them in wealth and military power if they united against them.

Tywin as a person and character is far from infallible, and he makes huge mistakes in dealing with his family that have enormous consequences, so I'm not trying to argue that he's beyond criticism. Not to mention that the throne is massively in debt under Tywin's tenure (though this also owes to actions by Littlefinger,etc). But his record as a military commander, administrator, and political strategist is as good as anyone's.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

A question to the seasoned readers....

Am i the only one who doesn't understand why Tywin gets such a huge nod for making his family the most powerful one in the realm?

When you look at the cards in his hands, to me, if he hadn't been top three at any given time, he was a dunce who didn't deserve his title.

His castle sits on working goldmines. And he's lord of the third largest city in the realm.

To me, its not that impressive.

The Lannisters are like the Yankees!

 

[Preachsuh]

Money isn't everything if you don't use it effectively (Tytos didn't). And the rebellion against House Lannister was not a doomed event either. House Reyne was described as being the 2nd richest/powerful house in Westerlands at the time, and had the potential to become the new dominant House in that region.

Yes, there are houses that are worse off than Lannister was under Tytos. But the point is that this was one of the major houses of the kingdom, out of maybe 8. And their power and influence had ebbed to the point where their dominance was put in jeopardy. This hasn't really happened since Aegon came and changed the order of things.

At the end of the day when you sum it all together, Tywin brought House Lannister from the brink of being overthrown to being the most powerful and influential House in the Kingdom for almost four decades straight. The Tyrells are described as being almost as rich as the Lannisters, but it's been House Lannister in charge for all this time despite the fact that other major houses could easily outmatch them in wealth and military power if they united against them.

Tywin as a person and character is far from infallible, and he makes huge mistakes in dealing with his family that have enormous consequences, so I'm not trying to argue that he's beyond criticism. But his record as a military commander, administrator, and political strategist is as good as anyone's.

Alright.
Agree to disagree.

Money isn't everything, but it does meet nearly all material needs.

The mere fact that other great houses would have to unite against the lannisters to take them down should tell us just how stacked their deck was to begin with.

Did they have a bad period when their bannermen were overreaching? Yes.

Does the fact that they're always going to be in the top two for wealth make it harder for me to swallow the hubris around their standing, preWOTFK?

Yes.

If a Rothschild patriarch/matriarch had a bad run, and the successor turned things around, good show.
But look at someone like Oprah Winfrey.
See where she came from, and see where she is now, and tell me what story you'd think is more of a turning fortune on its head type deal.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Good point on the Tyrells. They're a great example of what an absence of strong leadership can do to a powerful family, business, country, etc. They have the military power to challenge anyone and significant wealth, yet under the dithering reign of Mace Tyrell they have floundered for years.

I'd argue the only reason they're going to play a major role in future books is because of the death of Kevan Lannister, and Randall Tarley's leadership.

 

[Preachsuh]

Good point on the Tyrells. They're a great example of what an absence of strong leadership can do to a powerful family, business, country, etc. They have the military power to challenge anyone and significant wealth, yet under the dithering reign of Mace Tyrell they have floundered for years.

I'd argue the only reason they're going to play a major role in future books is because of the death of Kevan Lannister, and Randall Tarley's leadership.

Floundering?

In what way? Westeros isn't a democracy.
Its a crony club.

Absence of strong leadership? They were the deciding factor in the wot5k.

They were the staunch supporters of the old regime, and brown blooded at that.

In the face of a new king and council, the best/only wise thing for them to do was keep quiet and build connections/reroot themselves in their corner of the realm.

 

[Dany]

Just finished DWD after starting the entire series after season 1 finale. I really really really love the books. I stopped 1/3 through AFFC because I was bored, but I trudged through it and thought it was pretty middling, boring and I didn't care about most of the POV characters or the stories.

I loved DWD a lot, Tryion, Snow and Danys story were all great and I am excited to wait 5-6 years for the 6th book.

SOS>GOT>DWD>COK>AFFC

 

[Dysun]

Brienne and Sam chapters are like a brick in AFFC

 

[Thud]

So what are you guys expecting/hoping to find in the next book?

I really hope Martin cuts those boring Daenerys parts. Especially in ADWD it was annoying beyond contempt. I expect a great part to be involved with the North.

 

[Frost_Ace]

So what are you guys expecting/hoping to find in the next book?

I really hope Martin cuts those boring Daenerys parts. Especially in ADWD it was annoying beyond contempt. I expect a great part to be involved with the North.

I want moar Sam and Alayne.

 

[Iksenpets]

So what are you guys expecting/hoping to find in the next book?

I really hope Martin cuts those boring Daenerys parts. Especially in ADWD it was annoying beyond contempt. I expect a great part to be involved with the North.

Chapter 1: "Jon Snow was surprised how quickly all his multiple stabbings had healed. 'Boy, that sure turned out for the best!' he thought to himself."

 

[PhoenixDark]

Floundering?

In what way? Westeros isn't a democracy.
Its a crony club.

Absence of strong leadership? They were the deciding factor in the wot5k.

They were the staunch supporters of the old regime, and brown blooded at that.

In the face of a new king and council, the best/only wise thing for them to do was keep quiet and build connections/reroot themselves in their corner of the realm.

Their numbers were a deciding factor, I wouldn't chalk that up as a testament to their house leadership though; in fact outside of Tarley it seems like the Tyrells don't have any decent commanders, based off the farces Mace and Loras created. And in terms of overall strength, they had little power during Robert's reign largely due to incompetence imo.

In terms of power, they were held at bay until Cersei was removed from office. She basically played them like a fiddle, weakening their military power throughout AFFC.

 

[CygnusXS]

Money isn't everything if you don't use it effectively (Tytos didn't), and the Lannisters don't have infinite gold. The rebellion against House Lannister wasn't a doomed event either. House Reyne was described as being the 2nd most rich and powerful house in Westerlands at the time, and had the potential to become the new dominant House in that region.

Yes, there are houses that are worse off than Lannister was under Tytos. But the point is that this was one of the biggest houses of the kingdom (out of like 8). And their power and influence had ebbed to the point where their dominance was put in jeopardy. This hadn't really happened since Aegon came and changed the order of things.

At the end of the day when you sum it all together, Tywin brought House Lannister from the brink of being overthrown to being the most powerful and influential House in the Kingdom for almost four decades straight. The Tyrells are described as being almost as rich as the Lannisters, but it's been House Lannister in charge for all this time despite the fact that other major houses could easily outmatch them in wealth and military power if they united against them.

Tywin as a person and character is far from infallible, and he makes huge mistakes in dealing with his family that have enormous consequences, so I'm not trying to argue that he's beyond criticism. Not to mention that the throne is massively in debt under Tywin's tenure (though this also owes to actions by Littlefinger,etc). But his record as a military commander, administrator, and political strategist is as good as anyone's.

As I recall, a good portion of the Crown's debt is owed to the Lannisters, isn't it?

 

[Preachsuh]

Their numbers were a deciding factor, I wouldn't chalk that up as a testament to their house leadership though; in fact outside of Tarley it seems like the Tyrells don't have any decent commanders, based off the farces Mace and Loras created. And in terms of overall strength, they had little power during Robert's reign largely due to incompetence imo.

In terms of power, they were held at bay until Cersei was removed from office. She basically played them like a fiddle, weakening their military power throughout AFFC.

You're losing me.

They were the last defenders of the old regime, and the only house that handed Robert a defeat in the rebellion.
Their kings brother was a stern grim man, who held grudges like a dog with a bone.

They were wise to sit quietly and reroot themselves.
What would you have done in their place, following the successful Roberts Rebellion?

Matter of fact, if the Tyrells were incompetent, so were all the great houses aside from Baratheon and Lannister.
The Martells brooded, the Arryns chilled and the Starks and Tullys froze/dripped.

Ruling is a crony club, so those who rule enrich their cronies.
We saw it with Cersei in Affc, and again with Mace in ADWD.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Finished re-reading The Red Wedding.

Why did this thread make me think it started and ended with Robb's abrupt death.

It's chaos.


That's gonna be agonizing to watch unfold in the series.

 

[Massa]

Finished re-reading The Red Wedding.

Why did this thread make me think it started and ended with Robb's abrupt death.

It's chaos.


That's gonna be agonizing to watch unfold in the series.

Why would you re-read that. Why do this to yourself.

 

[Steelyuhas]

I've never re-read the Red Wedding, don't plan to either.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Why would you re-read that. Why do this to yourself.

Well, it is part of rereading ASOS...


Also, my favorite minor would probably be Thoros of Myr.


Roose Bolton has his charms too, in an evil way.

 

[PhoenixDark]

You're losing me.

They were the last defenders of the old regime, and the only house that handed Robert a defeat in the rebellion.
Their kings brother was a stern grim man, who held grudges like a dog with a bone.

They were wise to sit quietly and reroot themselves.
What would you have done in their place, following the successful Roberts Rebellion?

Matter of fact, if the Tyrells were incompetent, so were all the great houses aside from Baratheon and Lannister.
The Martells brooded, the Arryns chilled and the Starks and Tullys froze/dripped.

Ruling is a crony club, so those who rule enrich their cronies.
We saw it with Cersei in Affc, and again with Mace in ADWD.

They defeated Robert due to Randall Tarley commanding the army. Meanwhile Mace Tyrell camped outside Storm's End putting it to "siege" for more than a year.

I'd argue the problem with comparing them to other houses is that they're clearly bigger and more powerful than the Starks, Tullys, Martells, etc yet did not use that to advance their position during Robert's reign. Loras Tyrell was the only one to have any standing outside of The Reach.

I like your general point about the Tyrells waiting to see how things play out before moving, but I still question their apparently absence from doing much of anything pre-WOT5K. And to go back to the old point: in the past, you know who was bettering his house during "peace time" and consolidating power all while sitting back and observing how the overall Iron Throne power struggle went? Tywin Lannister.

 

[Iksenpets]

They defeated Robert due to Randall Tarley commanding the army. Meanwhile Mace Tyrell camped outside Storm's End putting it to "siege" for more than a year.

I'd argue the problem with comparing them to other houses is that they're clearly bigger and more powerful than the Starks, Tullys, Martells, etc yet did not use that to advance their position during Robert's reign. Loras Tyrell was the only one to have any standing outside of The Reach.

I like your general point about the Tyrells waiting to see how things play out before moving, but I still question their apparently absence from doing much of anything pre-WOT5K. And to go back to the old point: in the past, you know who was bettering his house during "peace time" and consolidating power all while sitting back and observing how the overall Iron Throne power struggle went? Tywin Lannister.

I would say that it was more that they were being actively snubbed by Robert for not supporting him, rather than that they weren't showing initiative in taking power. They bet wrong when they sided with the Targaryens, and that led to a loss of prestige for a while. Robert built the county up around his allies and left the other houses to fend for themselves. Hell, he married Stannis to a Florent, which seems like an implicit threat against the Tyrells. I'm in with your biggest rivals for power. Act up and I'll have my brother ruling over the Reach before you can blink. Granted he didn't like Stannis, so he probably didn't want to ever have to make good on the threat, but it was there because he didn't trust that he ever really had the support of the Tyrells.

As soon as Robert was out of the picture, the Tyrells made their move supporting Renly. Throwing their economic weight around the almost brought down Joffrey from within from the riots in King's Landing. Had it not been for Stannis' unforeseeable intervention in Renly's affairs, they would have thrown their military might around as well and ended up running the country with Renly as their puppet.

And even now that that fell through, they still managed to secure a marriage alliance with the Lannisters, basically deciding the outcome of the war, and then took it upon themselves to kill Joffrey and put the impressionable Tommen on the throne so that they could begin to influence him. Subsequent events that killed Tywin and Kevan and discredited Cersei aren't really their doing, but they've resulted in a situation where the Tyrells probably will be running the show when TWoW starts. Mace is finally Hand and they have the city basically occupied. Granted, none of that is going to last long with the chaos that's about to rain down, but none of them know that.

 

[timetokill]

So what are you guys expecting/hoping to find in the next book?

I really hope Martin cuts those boring Daenerys parts. Especially in ADWD it was annoying beyond contempt. I expect a great part to be involved with the North.

One bite, then another. He could hear weeping, yelling, screaming. It was a tongue he didn't understand, but the wailing of women was universal.

A roar echoed from deep within him, and Bran could taste the blood.

And he could taste the fire.

 

[Lax Mike]

I just got to thinking that if Benjen is somehow still alive, he's gonna be in for the most depressing news of all time when he gets back. He gets to simultaneously hear about the deaths of his family and how their murderers destroyed, and now inhabit his childhood home, as well as the fact that it's likely most of his friends in the Night's Watch are now dead, not to mention that his "Brothers" happen to be have Jon Snow's blood on their hands, which would make things a tad awkward.

 

[Frost_Ace]

One bite, then another. He could hear weeping, yelling, screaming. It was a tongue he didn't understand, but the wailing of women was universal.

A roar echoed from deep within him, and Bran could taste the blood.

And he could taste the fire.

This needs to happen omg!

 

[bengraven]

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?610007-Mod-A-Game-of-Thrones
Version 0.2 of the Crusader Kings II Game of Thrones mod is out. Now you can play as Wildlings and become King Beyond the Wall.

Man, I bought CK2 on that Amazon Paradox pack just for this mod, but the game is sooooooooooo fucking overwhelming.

Like I want to get a much more intelligent friend of mine to play the major portions so I can jump in every once and a while and knock off a rival or marry my 3 year old son to some 45 year old princess.

 

[Rei_Toei]

So what are you guys expecting/hoping to find in the next book?

I really hope Martin cuts those boring Daenerys parts. Especially in ADWD it was annoying beyond contempt. I expect a great part to be involved with the North.

More Eyrie/Vale. I want to see the entire mounted bad-assery of that valley to descend on Westeros and FUBAR the fuck out of... maybe the Freys for a start. Also shit needs to get real with House Tyrell and their scheming. They got a big-ass army and the Lannisters are going down hard in KL. Redwyne clashing with the Ironborn could be interesting if Martin pays any attention to it.

And some cool non-Westeros interference, of course. Golden Company is obviously going to take Storm's End, curious to see what's next. I also want to know what that Bravosi banker can do for Stannis while his army is turning to shit in the snow.

One bite, then another. He could hear weeping, yelling, screaming. It was a tongue he didn't understand, but the wailing of women was universal.

A roar echoed from deep within him, and Bran could taste the blood.

And he could taste the fire.

I speculated a bit about this a couple of pages back. Wonder how it'll work out.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Why would you re-read that. Why do this to yourself.

It's the best chapter in the series.

 

[Lirlond]

The catelyn and arya chapters there were fantastic.

Just read the nimble dick chapter on my reread. Fantastic character. Shame though...

 

[CassSept]

Just read the nimble dick chapter on my reread. Fantastic character. Shame though...

I think I've stalled for like 4 months at this chapter. Sorry, but ugh.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

I think Briennes chapters would have worked better more spread out as originally intended. They are better on a reread though.

 

[Arment]

I think I've stalled for like 4 months at this chapter. Sorry, but ugh.

How? They're words. Read them and get it over with.

 

[CassSept]

How? They're words. Read them and get it over with.

>pick up the book while on the train/bus
>read two or three pages
>fall asleep

Rinse and repeat. I believe I'm not the only one who took a long break after ASOS.

 

[bengraven]

Me: Hey, sweetheart, what's going on in Storm?

Her: Oh, um, Tyrion is meeting with some people from Dorne. Arya is going to Rivverun with the Hound.

Me: Cool. Where is Robb at right now?

Her: Oh, he's on his way to his uncle's wedding.

Me: Oh okay.

 

[RatskyWatsky]

Me: Oh okay.

You are required to post her reaction.

 

[chiQ]

You are required to post her reaction.

This. Oh hell yes.

 

[bengraven]

You are required to post her reaction.

Oh I will be.

She has had to re-read sections before because she'll be reading and realize she read a major death and suddenly be like "*brakes*, *u-turn*, *read again*".

I wonder what her reaction will be.

 

[RatskyWatsky]

Oh I will be.

She has had to re-read sections before because she'll be reading and realize she read a major death and suddenly be like "*brakes*, *u-turn*, *read again*".

I wonder what her reaction will be.

How did she react when Ned was beheaded? That might be an indication.

 

[bengraven]

How did she react when Ned was beheaded? That might be an indication.

She watched the show first and was just kind of surprised. She doesn't really get excited about anything shocking happening unless it's something she really really loves.

That said, she started reading the series and getting more into it and appreciating the characters more, so I think the deaths will have a bigger impact on her.

 

[Preachsuh]

Funny.

I was rereading the books, and it occurred to me just how much Tywin=lucky, where Robb=good.
Brings the quote"i'd rather be lucky than good" home many times over.
Look at the chips at the end of GOT, and then see where it all stands at the end of SOS.

The natural progression of things puts the Lannisters on spikes.
Yet, due to finagling of plot and character, they win the war.

 

[bengraven]

I wouldn't be shocked if the books ended with the kingdom destroyed, dark, covered in snow, and Jaime sitting on the throne, starving to death with his sword across his knees.

Then Dany arrives and says a few things, pitying him, but he says something heroic and slightly sassy about being the only one willing to stay and protect the seat and how his ass has been waiting for it for decades anyway and she leaves him there.

Actually now that I think of it, that would be a very fucking awesome ending and very true to the character/story arc.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Funny.

I was rereading the books, and it occurred to me just how much Tywin=lucky, where Robb=good.
Brings the quote"i'd rather be lucky than good" home many times over.
Look at the chips at the end of GOT, and then see where it all stands at the end of SOS.

The natural progression of things puts the Lannisters on spikes.
Yet, due to finagling of plot and character, they win the war.

The Starks lost the war the minute Edmure decided it was a good idea to block Tywin's passage into the Westerlands instead of follow orders. Without that action, Robb probably defeats Tywin in the West by having more horse and Edmure attacking from behind, and Stannis surely takes Kings Landing without Tywin's relief forces. So frustrating.

 

[bengraven]

I'm watching Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves: The Director's Cut and she's reading the Kindle next to me in her chair.

She: *frustrated look*

Me: ?

She: Hold on...I have to re-read that...I'm really confused...

Me: (grinning) What did you just read?

She: I'll be right back. *goes out on the porch to re-read parts of the chapter and smoke a cigarette...she smokes TWO*

She comes in and gives me a cock-eyed look: Okay...seriously...? Did Robb, Cat, AND Arya just die?

Me: *Grinch grin*

She: Arya's alive, right? I mean, he didn't have a reason to kill her...

Me: No, I will say he just whacked on her the head...kind of stupid for him to kill her when he could just have turned and left and let her get killed on her own.

She: Whew, okay, because she was being stupid.

Me: Yep...

She: .........that's FUCKED UPPPP.

Me: *grins*

She: What the HECK is going to happen now? Wait, this means bitch face evil brat king is going to die right?

Me: Wait...what?

She: Well, the leeches (I always forget about the fucking leeches). One for Greyjoy, who was thrown off a bridge. One for Robb, and then there was one for the bitch king. Wait, you said there are FOUR major deaths in this book. So there was Robb, Cat, and the Old Bear...and now one more.

Me: Sure, babe. Just one more major death (I had forgotten to count Mormont in my death count, which leaves Joff and Tywin, but she's going to get a shock now because she's expecting Joff to die, BUT she LOVES Tywin's character)

 

[SouthernDragon]

you monster

ps robb for king of the north for ever

god damn

 

[Steelyuhas]

you monster

ps robb for king of the north for ever

god damn

Well King in the North

 

[SouthernDragon]

Yeah, that.

He could have waited after the damn war to marry the wrong girl.

Or he could have slaughtered the Freys.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Yeah, that.

He could have waited after the damn war to marry the wrong girl.

Or he could have slaughtered the Freys.

Or he could have not have his Uncle Edmure fuck him with his own terrible war decisions.