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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

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Blizzard

Banned
Agreed.



Robb is the shit, and he represents the North in both ideals and the actual fight against the southern houses. In one fell swoop, the Red Wedding ends the Northern Kingdom, and the fight against the Lannisters, with the faction that most people are pulling for is basically completely destroyed in a matter of minutes.
I guess I didn't consider Robb much of a fleshed-out or likeable character, but it's been a long time and he was probably better than the others, since almost everyone in the books seems to be a jerk of one sort or another.

I guess I don't really feel a strong pull for a faction either, only characters -- Bran and Arya (and maybe Jon) survived, at least until GRRM decides to kill them off, and those were the main north people who seemed to be semi-likeable. Ned was dead so quickly, and possibly dumb/oblivious while doing it, that I guess I don't remember being especially sad about him.
 

Iksenpets

Banned
Sean Collins of the Boiled Leather blog has a proposed chapter order for a merged Feast/Dance. I don't think new readers should follow this (The Dorne revelation alone is worth reading Feast as a stand-alone) but I'm working on a merged ePub so I can try this on my next reread.

http://boiledleather.com/post/24543217702/a-proposed-a-feast-for-crows-a-dance-with-dragons

Looks like he's added an option now where you move Arianne's last Feast chapter up to get it before the first Quentyn chapter that looks much better.

Also, I kind of liked his original idea of clustering Dany, Jon, and Cersei's first chapters. I would definitely consider going back to that, even if it means moving Tyrion's chapter to be after Jon and Dany's to put it after Cersei. Go Dany, Jon, Cersei, Tyrion, Brienne instead of Cersei, Tyrion, Dany, Brienne, Jon like he has. Also, putting Dany in Mereen earlier clusters it with the similarly 'exotic' chapters in Dorne and the Iron Isles.
 

bengraven

Member
My wife is on Storm.

I think it's awesome that she got this far, considering she's really only read "light" books in the past and has gone on record as hating huge books with tons of characters "loaded with war".

I made sure to hint only slightly at the Red Wedding by saying:

"There are going to be deaths that will shock you and you'll end up rereading paragraphs".
"Like when XXXX died at the end of Mockingjay?"
"Ten times more shocking than that"

And she gets this wicked grin on her face because she can't wait. :D


Sean Collins of the Boiled Leather blog has a proposed chapter order for a merged Feast/Dance. I don't think new readers should follow this (The Dorne revelation alone is worth reading Feast as a stand-alone) but I'm working on a merged ePub so I can try this on my next reread.

http://boiledleather.com/post/24543217702/a-proposed-a-feast-for-crows-a-dance-with-dragons

Oh shit, let me know if you make that epub. I'll send you pics of my paperback of Feast and Amazon receipt for Dance Kindle edition to ensure you that I'm not pirating.

I'm pretty worried the sig other is going to confused as fuck when it comes to 4 and 5 and would rather her read it combined.
 

Levi

Banned
Looks like he's added an option now where you move Arianne's last Feast chapter up to get it before the first Quentyn chapter that looks much better.

Also, I kind of liked his original idea of clustering Dany, Jon, and Cersei's first chapters. I would definitely consider going back to that, even if it means moving Tyrion's chapter to be after Jon and Dany's to put it after Cersei. Go Dany, Jon, Cersei, Tyrion, Brienne instead of Cersei, Tyrion, Dany, Brienne, Jon like he has. Also, putting Dany in Mereen earlier clusters it with the similarly 'exotic' chapters in Dorne and the Iron Isles.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense to have the three characters who are trying (and failing) to rule near each other, to make the (deliberate) contrast of their three styles more clear.

Oh shit, let me know if you make that epub. I'll send you pics of my paperback of Feast and Amazon receipt for Dance Kindle edition to ensure you that I'm not pirating.

I'm pretty worried the sig other is going to confused as fuck when it comes to 4 and 5 and would rather her read it combined.

That's no problem, but my version doesn't protect the surprise that the Martells have been working with the Targaryans since their fall from power. Doran Martell saying "Vengeance. Justice. Fire and Blood." is up there with Manderly's "The North Remembers" as far as the latter two books are concerned. (Actually, I never considered how Manderly's secret loyalty to the defeated Stark monarchy parallels so closely Doran Martell's secret loyalty to the defeated Targaryen monarchy. Both Manderly and Martell pretend to serve those they bitterly despise, to the point where there own people think them weak, both are motivated by vengeance, and both have secret plots to reinstate fallen monarchies. Crazy.)
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
There are plenty of people who were disappointed with AFFC long before the series was even announced. General consensus is it suffers heavily from being the denouement to the considerably more explosive SoS, and that it gains considerably on a reread. However, a person who finds it too slow and trudges through it or puts it aside early is obviously not going to be eager for another go at 500 pages.

The "us vs. them" sort of mentality one sees when the book fans engage with the TV show is a little ridiculous. Fans who were brought in through the TV show can have an opinion on the books too.

It's like the "LOtR movies are superior to the books." people. That's nice they think so, but they're completely wrong.
 

Iksenpets

Banned
That's no problem, but my version doesn't protect the surprise that the Martells have been working with the Targaryans since their fall from power. Doran Martell saying "Vengeance. Justice. Fire and Blood." is up there with Manderly's "The North Remembers" as far as the latter two books are concerned. (Actually, I never considered how Manderly's secret loyalty to the defeated Stark monarchy parallels so closely Doran Martell's secret loyalty to the defeated Targaryen monarchy. Both Manderly and Martell pretend to serve those they bitterly despise, to the point where there own people think them weak, both are motivated by vengeance, and both have secret plots to reinstate fallen monarchies. Crazy.)

That's true, I never caught that. I think I may do a Feast/Dance reread as a single book, because seeing that along with some of the other parallels mentioned in the link make me think I may appreciate it better that way. Both Manderly and Prince Doran are also physically unfit basically to the point of being disabled, which exacerbates their perceived weakness. Interesting.

Now I kind of want to really mess with the Feast chapter order to put 'The North Remembers' and 'Fire and Blood' next to each other...

Edit: Looking over it, it would take a pretty serious scramble to make this happen. The best I can come up with after a quick glance at chapter summaries online is Jaime II, Arianne I, Cersei IV, Davos III, Arianne II, Quentyn I, Arya II, Sansa II, Victarion I, Aeron I, Brienne IV, Cersei V. Pretty huge reordering, but I don't think it would upset the order of any related plots, though I could easily be missing something. You also get Jaime's reading about the Kingmaker segueing straight into The Queenmaker in this order. Definitely too much reordering if you're trying to be as authentic to the original as possible, but really who could say that GRRM wouldn't have reordering chapters within Feast if he had had the Dance chapters to couple them with.
 

Pecan1

Banned
Rereading GoT, maybe not significant but in the chapter where Neddard arrives in KL and meets Cat in the brothel, he talks with her about the possibility of a Lannister war, and tells her along the lines that the Lannisters wont attack unless they see a weakness and tells her to quietly order Tallharts and Glovers to man/fortify Moat Callin and the Manderlays to prepare defenses.

Just thought it was cool to see how good Ned is at being a leader, hes one of the few characters that doesn't appear to be totally motivated by ambition. I def find myself in the Cat haters camp and I'm sure ill only feel more that way once i get to the bit were she arrests Tyrion.

oh and Ned also makes it a point to tell Cat keep Theon close. Why Cat?? Why do you suck so bad. And she is such a stupid bitch the way she treats Jon Snow. In a book w/ so many strong/interesting female roles she always just comes up as a lame duck to me

I can't wait until the asoiaf fighting game comes out and I get to use Neddard to straight murder Tywin
 

Levi

Banned
Both Manderly and Prince Doran are also physically unfit basically to the point of being disabled, which exacerbates their perceived weakness. Interesting.

Oh wow, that's a good point.

I love all the connections between Feast and Dance. We've got John, Dany and Cersei all "learning to rule". We've got Manderly and Martell, as previously discussed. Boiled Leather thematically connects the quests of Bran, Quentyn, Tyrion, and Brienne. Sansa and Arya both take on new identities and both are being trained, one to play the game, the other to be an assassin.

Any more parallels I'm either forgetting or too dense to see?
 
oh and Ned also makes it a point to tell Cat keep Theon close. Why Cat?? Why do you suck so bad.

And she heeded that advice and told Robb as much. But Robb wouldn't have it and sent Theon off despite Catelyn's strong protests to the contrary. You can't really blame her for Robb being an idiot.

Oh wow, that's a good point.

I love all the connections between Feast and Dance. We've got John, Dany and Cersei all "learning to rule". We've got Manderly and Martell, as previously discussed. Boiled Leather thematically connects the quests of Bran, Quentyn, Tyrion, and Brienne. Sansa and Arya both take on new identities and both are being trained, one to play the game, the other to be an assassin.

Any more parallels I'm either forgetting or too dense to see?

You also have Jaime and Theon. Two characters perceived as the world by being horrific and dishonorable who have to deal with the loss of certain appendages and go on redemptive journeys, while growing more distant from their families.
 

Iksenpets

Banned
Oh wow, that's a good point.

I love all the connections between Feast and Dance. We've got John, Dany and Cersei all "learning to rule". We've got Manderly and Martell, as previously discussed. Boiled Leather thematically connects the quests of Bran, Quentyn, Tyrion, and Brienne. Sansa and Arya both take on new identities and both are being trained, one to play the game, the other to be an assassin.

Any more parallels I'm either forgetting or too dense to see?

I would argue Stannis is also learning to rule, though he's not a POV. He and Jon really both mature a lot over the course of Dance, while Cersei and Dany seem to begin crumbling under the pressure. There's also a strong parallel between Dance Jon and Clash Tyrion, as both rule shrewdly only to be cast down in the end because of people's misconceptions about them as as a traitor's bastard/oathbreaker in Jon's case and as a dwarf in Tyrion's.
 
Correlation is not causation. I'm inclined to believe Mel saw their deaths in the flames, and used that knowledge to make herself seem more powerful, not that she had any impact on their deaths.

There are very strong hints that a faceless man killed Balon and since we know Stannis is very poor, i doubt he had something to do with that so i am inclined to believe your theory. Same with the old lady who planned with littlefinger to poison Jofferey. That stuff wasnt planned the night before. Mel knew.
 
I would argue Stannis is also learning to rule, though he's not a POV. He and Jon really both mature a lot over the course of Dance, while Cersei and Dany seem to begin crumbling under the pressure. There's also a strong parallel between Dance Jon and Clash Tyrion, as both rule shrewdly only to be cast down in the end because of people's misconceptions about them as as a traitor's bastard/oathbreaker in Jon's case and as a dwarf in Tyrion's.

I think Jon fits in more with Cersei and Dany. He had some good ideas, but he was pretty woeful as an actual ruler. He surrounded himself only with people who were opposed to him and sent all of his friends to the furthest reaches of the wall. Rather than keeping his friends close and his enemies closer, he kept his enemies close and sent his friends to the other side of the world.

I think you can see very strong links between Jon and Dany in particular. Both try to do the right thing and have some progressive ideas, but they make a number of political blunders that undermine this.
 

Iksenpets

Banned
have people reached a consensus on one very important matter: theon's cock, on or off?

Totally off. That's exactly the sort of punishment Ramsay would dole out for falling for a girl and trying to escape with her. Best way to make sure that never happens again. It's really disturbing when you think about how Ramsay only takes skin, and makes you beg for the eventual dismemberment. Having to ask to please be made a eunuch now probably added to Theon's sense of emasculation.

I think Jon fits in more with Cersei and Dany. He had some good ideas, but he was pretty woeful as an actual ruler. He surrounded himself only with people who were opposed to him and sent all of his friends to the furthest reaches of the wall. Rather than keeping his friends close and his enemies closer, he kept his enemies close and sent his friends to the other side of the world.

I think you can see very strong links between Jon and Dany in particular. Both try to do the right thing and have some progressive ideas, but they make a number of political blunders that undermine this.

I can see the Dany parallel, but Jon is nowhere near her level of incompetence. Jon fails to build support for his reforms because he fails to grasp just how little political capital he actually has to spend and completely misinterprets his father's warnings against friendship when he sends his friends away, but every decision he makes really is a solid strategic decision towards strengthening the Watch.

Dany outright blunders with her unwillingness to use her dragons, her unwillingness to use necessary force against the Sons of the Harpy, and her decision to let some of those sick with the Pale Mare into the city. Dany attempted to appease the Mereenese when really she and the Mereenese nobility had no common interest to work towards. Jon appeased the Wildlings, and his men hated him for it, but the Wildlings stayed loyal to him because they actually had common interests to pursue. Also, I can't confirm it, because it never came down to it, but I feel like Jon would have used the Wildlings children he had hostage if need be, whereas Dany couldn't pull the trigger on her hostages.

So yeah, I see your point, and there's definitely some Dany in Jon, but I still see him as closer to Tyrion, done in by his own people's preconceived mistrust of him rather than by his failure to adequately deal with his enemies like Dany.
 

John Dunbar

correct about everything
I think Jon fits in more with Cersei and Dany. He had some good ideas, but he was pretty woeful as an actual ruler. He surrounded himself only with people who were opposed to him and sent all of his friends to the furthest reaches of the wall. Rather than keeping his friends close and his enemies closer, he kept his enemies close and sent his friends to the other side of the world.

I think you can see very strong links between Jon and Dany in particular. Both try to do the right thing and have some progressive ideas, but they make a number of political blunders that undermine this.

Dany fits in with the Others. Others are the ice behind one wall, Dany is the fire behind the other (the narrow sea). Only difference is that we get a closer look on the little queen.
 
Euron hired a Faceless Man to off Balon. It ain't hard.

Yeah. Its a logical jump. No other explanation for why he appeared magically afterward for a kingsmoot.

That man is a total fucking mystery though. The horn, his wealth, etc. I cant wait to learn more because i feel there has to be some magical/powerful force behind him.
 

CrunchyB

Member
I think Jon fits in more with Cersei and Dany. He had some good ideas, but he was pretty woeful as an actual ruler. He surrounded himself only with people who were opposed to him and sent all of his friends to the furthest reaches of the wall. Rather than keeping his friends close and his enemies closer, he kept his enemies close and sent his friends to the other side of the world.

Jon intentionally distanced himself from everyone, not only friends like Pyp, Grenn and Sam, but people like Toad and Satin as well. People who could have given him a head's up. Only Edd was left. He also ignored Melisandre's warnings even though he knew they were probably true. And, Robb-style, he left his direwolf behind.

I think you can see very strong links between Jon and Dany in particular. Both try to do the right thing and have some progressive ideas, but they make a number of political blunders that undermine this.

Sure, but then again, they are in incredibly hard positions. For Dany in particular it's quite possible that there was no single wise course of action. Every alternative sucked as well, like abandoning her freedmen or a wholesale massacre in slaver's bay.
 
Rereading GoT, maybe not significant but in the chapter where Neddard arrives in KL and meets Cat in the brothel, he talks with her about the possibility of a Lannister war, and tells her along the lines that the Lannisters wont attack unless they see a weakness and tells her to quietly order Tallharts and Glovers to man/fortify Moat Callin and the Manderlays to prepare defenses.

Just thought it was cool to see how good Ned is at being a leader, hes one of the few characters that doesn't appear to be totally motivated by ambition. I def find myself in the Cat haters camp and I'm sure ill only feel more that way once i get to the bit were she arrests Tyrion.

oh and Ned also makes it a point to tell Cat keep Theon close. Why Cat?? Why do you suck so bad. And she is such a stupid bitch the way she treats Jon Snow. In a book w/ so many strong/interesting female roles she always just comes up as a lame duck to me

I can't wait until the asoiaf fighting game comes out and I get to use Neddard to straight murder Tywin

Cat wanted Theon to be kept close, it was Robb who sent him to Pyke. Ultimately while Catelyn made some bad decisions, Robb would have lived longer if he followed all of her advice. It was Robb's decision to free Theon that led to her freeing Jaime; I give her a pass for that considering it was a mistake of pure mental anguish/motherly love
 

Dysun

Member
Euron hired a Faceless Man to off Balon. It ain't hard.

It is known
Sean Collins of the Boiled Leather blog has a proposed chapter order for a merged Feast/Dance. I don't think new readers should follow this (The Dorne revelation alone is worth reading Feast as a stand-alone) but I'm working on a merged ePub so I can try this on my next reread.

http://boiledleather.com/post/24543217702/a-proposed-a-feast-for-crows-a-dance-with-dragons
On my re-read I'm definitely gonna try this out to see how it flows as one massive book.
 
I can see the Dany parallel, but Jon is nowhere near her level of incompetence. Jon fails to build support for his reforms because he fails to grasp just how little political capital he actually has to spend and completely misinterprets his father's warnings against friendship when he sends his friends away, but every decision he makes really is a solid strategic decision towards strengthening the Watch.

Dany outright blunders with her unwillingness to use her dragons, her unwillingness to use necessary force against the Sons of the Harpy, and her decision to let some of those sick with the Pale Mare into the city. Dany attempted to appease the Mereenese when really she and the Mereenese nobility had no common interest to work towards. Jon appeased the Wildlings, and his men hated him for it, but the Wildlings stayed loyal to him because they actually had common interests to pursue. Also, I can't confirm it, because it never came down to it, but I feel like Jon would have used the Wildlings children he had hostage if need be, whereas Dany couldn't pull the trigger on her hostages.

So yeah, I see your point, and there's definitely some Dany in Jon, but I still see him as closer to Tyrion, done in by his own people's preconceived mistrust of him rather than by his failure to adequately deal with his enemies like Dany.

Dany's blunders stick out more, but she was in a much more difficult place in terms of politics. Jon had quite a few friends on the wall (until he sent every last one of them off to the furthest reaches of the wall), while Dany had significantly fewer allies.

Her attempts to appease the nobles were a necessary learning experience for her if she ever hopes to rule on a large scale. As Tywin said to Joffrey, when your enemy kneels before you, you help them up. She didn't always handle the situation in the best way, but she had to try.

Jon's decisions strengthened the watch's numbers, but he also alienated many members of the watch. He was also shown to be pretty stubborn in his own views (far more so than Dany). Basically every conversation between him and Bowen Marsh boils down to:

Jon: I'm going to do this.
Bowen: I'm not sure if that is the best idea.
Jon: I don't care, I'm going to do it anyway. (Proceeds to make no compromises or heed any advice)

Jon would be a fool to let Bowen run things, but he should have at least listened to him some of the time, or at least made some compromises. Even iron hard Stannis understands the importance of making compromises and keeping your advisers happy. If Jon had shown some willingness to work with him, Bowen Marsh and his conspirators likely would have remained in support of him.

Tyrion in a Clash of Kings showed himself to be very capable at heeding advice and changing his plans based on what those around him thought. He listened to what Varys and Jacelyn said, he worked with Littlefinger, and he even made compromises to Cersei at various points to keep her placated. Jon had some great ideas, and certainly contributed a lot to the defense of the realm, but his execution of those ideas was what served to forge the daggers in the dark.

Jon intentionally distanced himself from everyone, not only friends like Pyp, Grenn and Sam, but people like Toad and Satin as well. People who could have given him a head's up. Only Edd was left. He also ignored Melisandre's warnings even though he knew they were probably true. And, Robb-style, he left his direwolf behind.

I think even Edd was sent away later on. He really completely missed the concept of having allies whatsoever.

Sure, but then again, they are in incredibly hard positions. For Dany in particular it's quite possible that there was no single wise course of action. Every alternative sucked as well, like abandoning her freedmen or a wholesale massacre in slaver's bay.

Yeah, certainly. Dany was in a position where there was no really great action. Which is an important theme to the novel in particular. Ruling isn't easy, and there frequently won't be a 'right' option.
 

Levi

Banned
You also have Jaime and Theon. Two characters perceived as the world by being horrific and dishonorable who have to deal with the loss of certain appendages and go on redemptive journeys, while growing more distant from their families.

Good point. Jaime doesn't bother making it known he saved King's Landing (and all its people) from Aerys' wildfire. Theon doesn't bother telling anyone he didn't actually kill Bran and Rickon.
 

suzu

Member
Jon intentionally distanced himself from everyone, not only friends like Pyp, Grenn and Sam, but people like Toad and Satin as well. People who could have given him a head's up. Only Edd was left. He also ignored Melisandre's warnings even though he knew they were probably true. And, Robb-style, he left his direwolf behind.

I think even Edd was sent away later on. He really completely missed the concept of having allies whatsoever.

He sent Edd away to another castle along the wall, too.

Yeah, Jon basically just did his own thing and sent all his friends and wolf away.
 

Iksenpets

Banned
Jon would be a fool to let Bowen run things, but he should have at least listened to him some of the time, or at least made some compromises. Even iron hard Stannis understands the importance of making compromises and keeping your advisers happy. If Jon had shown some willingness to work with him, Bowen Marsh and his conspirators likely would have remained in support of him.

Good point on Jon's stubbornness. Some sort of olive branch to Bowen would've gone a long way. And like I said earlier, Jon casting aside his friends was really stupid of him. Jon made mistakes, for sure, and he wasn't as good as Tyrion had been, but Dany really is on another level.

She definitely was between a rock and a hard place. She was never going to find a great path forward, but she pretty much chose the worst of all the possible bad answers. She really failed to grasp how different the world she was operating in was from the Westerosi customs she had been educated in. Tywin was right when he advised giving enemies the chance to surrender so others don't fight on til the bitter end, but that advice was geared towards Westeros, where feudal culture means everyone's used to having to bend the knee to someone ever since the conquest. Mereenese don't have that culture, and moreover Dany and her dragons represent the culture that conquered and oppressed these people for centuries. They were never going to accept her and were going to try to subvert her at every opportunity.

Then she decides the obviously shady and self-interested Hizdahr is her best path forward, and really believes that the Harpy stops attacking because of Hizdahr's power amongst the Mereenese, and not because her power is now being undone from within. She's just way too trusting and naive. Granted, Jon is too, since he trusts that his men will trust him, but somehow his leap of faith seems a level less foolhardy to me.

Edit: Thinking it over more, there is a connection between how Dany wants the Mereenese to give up integral elements of their culture and how Jon wants the Watch to change its culture from one of fighting Wildlings to one fighting Others, especially given that most surviving members of the Watch weren't at the Fist to see what the Others can do. +1 for Dany/Jon connection.
 

apana

Member
Start with book one or don't bother with the books at all.

Meh, I started with book two after season 1 and it worked out great. I went back and read book one after finishing the series and I felt it was the right decision. I wouldn't recommend starting from book three however considering some of the atrocious changes in season 2.
 
Good point on Jon's stubbornness. Some sort of olive branch to Bowen would've gone a long way. And like I said earlier, Jon casting aside his friends was really stupid of him. Jon made mistakes, for sure, and he wasn't as good as Tyrion had been, but Dany really is on another level.

She definitely was between a rock and a hard place. She was never going to find a great path forward, but she pretty much chose the worst of all the possible bad answers. She really failed to grasp how different the world she was operating in was from the Westerosi customs she had been educated in. Tywin was right when he advised giving enemies the chance to surrender so others don't fight on til the bitter end, but that advice was geared towards Westeros, where feudal culture means everyone's used to having to bend the knee to someone ever since the conquest. Mereenese don't have that culture, and moreover Dany and her dragons represent the culture that conquered and oppressed these people for centuries. They were never going to accept her and were going to try to subvert her at every opportunity.

Then she decides the obviously shady and self-interested Hizdahr is her best path forward, and really believes that the Harpy stops attacking because of Hizdahr's power amongst the Mereenese, and not because her power is now being undone from within. She's just way too trusting and naive. Granted, Jon is too, since he trusts that his men will trust him, but somehow his leap of faith seems a level less foolhardy to me.

Edit: Thinking it over more, there is a connection between how Dany wants the Mereenese to give up integral elements of their culture and how Jon wants the Watch to change its culture from one of fighting Wildlings to one fighting Others, especially given that most surviving members of the Watch weren't at the Fist to see what the Others can do. +1 for Dany/Jon connection.

Dany really should have got the fuck out of there by taking the Martell proposal.
 
I enjoyed AFFC on my first read, imagine I'll love it on my second.

The leisurely pace was nice.

Both the 4th and the 5th books were better on my second read. Expectations were in check, and I started to appreciate the way things are written and presented, instead of the hunger/focus on what comes next, what comes next.
 
I keep sayin', books 4 and 5 are foundation books, setting up big events to come. They aren't supposed to be as bombastic as ASOS.

They do drag a bit at the beginnings, though.
 
Sean Collins of the Boiled Leather blog has a proposed chapter order for a merged Feast/Dance. I don't think new readers should follow this (The Dorne revelation alone is worth reading Feast as a stand-alone) but I'm working on a merged ePub so I can try this on my next reread.

http://boiledleather.com/post/24543217702/a-proposed-a-feast-for-crows-a-dance-with-dragons

Interesting. I remember the founder of Tower Of The Hand saying he created a similar POV list, but I don't think he ever released it
 
Dany really should have got the fuck out of there by taking the Martell proposal.
She'd have had to have bailed on the throng of refugees she had following her - essentially sentencing them to death. This doesn't jibe with her image of herself as a benevolent ruler and the optics of it really aren't that great either.

The fact is that she cannot be this nurturing mother goddess figure and a dragon-riding conqueror at the same time. It just doesn't work. That's the whole point.

Her conscience would never allow her to simply stand by and watch her people get oppressed or slaughtered. That priority, above all others, is what caused her to make all the decisions that got her mired in Mereen in the first place.

If she'd been politically savvy (if cruel and terrible), she'd have come into Mereen and immediately begun a brutal purge of anyone who had even the slightest interest in or capability of restoring the old order - the older, nobler or more royal your bloodline, the more swift and public your death. It would mean blood running like a river through the streets in the short term, but low crime rates and a slate of much weaker and pliant enemies in the long. It's only after the first few days of terror during which you remove sedition root and branch that a conqueror can reign as an enlightened despot.

It's why Robert had to have every last Targaryen heir die when he took the Iron Throne, however distasteful he personally found it. It's why Aegon burned Black Harren alive in his castle when he showed such spirited resistance against his advance.

GRRM basically took the choice out of her hands by removing her from the situation and annulling all her gains, forcing her to conquer or die.
 

bengraven

Member
R3dW9.jpg
 
Wasn't Benjen Coldhands? Or am I remembering that wrong.

That's what I originally assumed, but they said that Coldhands had been dead for many many years if I recall correctly, pretty much ruling out that it was Benjen.

EDIT: A children of the forest said "They killed him long ago."
 

CrunchyB

Member
It seems it's like Coldhands is The Night King.

According to legend, the Night King was the 13th LC, so he would be about 8000 years old by now. It's probably not him :p

I've always assumed he was Benjen, he's the only suspect we have. If he were some random crow there would be no point in being mysterious about it.
 
According to legend, the Night King was the 13th LC, so he would be about 8000 years old by now. It's probably not him :p

I've always assumed he was Benjen, he's the only suspect we have. If he were some random crow there would be no point in being mysterious about it.

But the child of the forest said Coldhands was killed many years ago; considering the child was thousands of years old, I'd imagine she must mean Coldhands was killed far more than 2 years ago (2 years is nothing to her), so it's certainly not Benjen. I think it's the Night King or some other Night Watch member of historical note.

I have no idea how Benjen could survive so long beyond the Wall, so I kind of think he was either taken prisoner by Wildlings or maybe even slavers. Some people think he's scouting the Others close to the Land of Always Winter (presumably their kingdom), but that seems ridiculous. Bran and company barely survived far beyond the Wall, and would have certainly died if not for finding the cave/Coldhands. How could Benjen survive even farther than that with wights popping up out of the snow everywhere.

Or maybe he's in Hardholme
 
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