I agree. They should try to stick to an "expanded universe", which, if it sucks, I can disregard completely.
They shouldn't even attempt the proper story. Unless they do it like the 16-bit college humor videos
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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
- Thread starter Pollux
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I agree. They should try to stick to an "expanded universe", which, if it sucks, I can disregard completely.
They shouldn't even attempt the proper story. Unless they do it like the 16-bit college humor videos
Time to build Braavos with Assassin's Creed AnvilNext engine and become a Faceless (wo)man. Ending mission could be pushing Balon Greyjoy into the sea or something.
The Albatross
Member
For one, like someone else said, Robb sent papers to legitimize Jon Snow, but even beyond that. Assuming Jon is Rhaegar & Lyanna Stark's son, who's to say that Rhaegr & Lyanna didn't marry while they ran away with one another?
Rhaegar wasn already married to Elia Martell - I don't know how much time passed between Robert's rebellion, the sacking of King's Landing/death of Elia, but doesn't seem to leave much room for Rhaegar marrying/impregnating Lyanna.
Edit: looked up the timeline. Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna while still being married to Elia. If he got her pregnant at the time, the child would be considered a natural child/bastard. Jon Blackfyre, if you want
.Basileus777
Member
Elia died after Rhaegar, so he could not have married Lyanna in that manner.
But he was a Targ, several of his ancestors including the founder of the 7 kingdoms had multiple wives.
John Dunbar
correct about everything
I don't think there were any heads coming over the walls, just bodies with the plague.
Winds spoiler from a public reading chapter:
One of the public readings GRRM did of a Tyrion chapter from Winds confirmed that Daario and the other captives are alive. It's only plague corpses being flung. Tyrion is trying to convince Ben Plumm to turn back to Dany's side and to rescue Daario to win back her favor.
bengraven
Member
Sweet, that might actually work to get him in with her crew.
Until Barristan figures out who he is.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Rhaegar wasn already married to Elia Martell - I don't know how much time passed between Robert's rebellion, the sacking of King's Landing/death of Elia, but doesn't seem to leave much room for Rhaegar marrying/impregnating Lyanna.
Edit: looked up the timeline. Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna while still being married to Elia. If he got her pregnant at the time, the child would be considered a natural child/bastard. Jon Blackfyre, if you want
Basically, being a Targaryen (and being the Prince of Westeros) means anything goes. He very easily could have married Lyanna while being married to Elia. I find it funny how people on internet threads often think the entire R+L theory won't come true because its too obvious, but I've talked about the ASOIAF series with most of my friends and family, and none of them ever gave it a thought. In fact, most of them thought it was implausible until I explained it out.
Mine: Jon is not dead, also it turns out he's not a Stark and ends up marrying Sansa and taking back Winterfell restoring it to its former glory and becomes King in the North. A month later, Arya shows up with Nymeria beside her and then Bran and Rickon along with Summer and Shaggy dog.
Will probably get trolled by GRRM though :'(
John Dunbar
correct about everything
Seeing that Jorah is with them, I don't think hiding Tyrion's identity is really an option.
PhoenixDark
Banned
There is no confirmation that Robb legitimized Jon as his heir.
Also, we don't know whether Rhaegar married Lyanna or not
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
How could you hide Tyrion's identity in any case? He's a dwarf without a nose who's wanted for murdering both the King of the largest country in the known world AND murdering the richest man in said country. If he's not the most (in)famous person in the entire ASOIAF world, he's pretty close.
John Dunbar
correct about everything
I'm sure there is room for more than one dwarf who has had an accident in the world, but my post was simply to point out that Barristan is the least of Tyrion's problems should he want to hide his identity.
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
here's some backstory on how legitimizing bastards can go dangerous:
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Blackfyre_Rebellion
One more matter. Lord Balon has left chaos in his wake, we hope. I would not do the same. Yet I have no son as yet, my brothers Bran and Rickon are dead, and my sister is wed to a Lannister. Ive thought long and hard about who might follow me. I command you now as my true and loyal lords to fix your seals to this document as witnesses to my decision.
I think that pretty much implies that he legitimized Jon as his heir. What the repercussions will be, idk, but...it's there, unless he changed his mind at the last minute. Who else would he pick, though?
waaaaaat
I need to read the books a second time. Every time I check this thread I feel like I never read them at all, lol.
Hodor!
Don't think he did name Jon his heir though, would be un-Starklike to leave ones duty on the Wall...
Steelyuhas
Member
When Robb leaves Riverrun to go North for Edmure's wedding and to retake the North he decides to name an heir as Jenye was not yet pregnant and he believed Bran and Rickon to be dead. He has a conservation with Cat about naming Jon as his heir (she wasn't too happy about that though), and then there is a scene shortly afterward in which Robb has all his lords that are currently which him make their seal on his decision for the naming of his heir. As two lords (can't remember which ones), were sent off (to the Reeds as part of the plan to remakes the North if I remember) and didn't attend the Red Wedding, it's assumed that Robb's letter naming his heir is still out there with one or two of his lords.
It is likely that Robb named Jon, but we don't know for sure.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
That wouldn't free him from being a member of the Night's Watch, however. Robb even said in that scene that there isn't any precedent for releasing a person from the Night's Watch.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I continue to disagree because ACOK and ASOS had a few instances of Robb privately disagreeing with Catelyn's council, only to publicly take her side. I think he ultimately decided to choose a Royce cousin, perhaps even the Blackfish.
Plus I don't think naming Jon does anything to move the story forward. With him dead (for now), it would just lead to an annoying dead end. Plus how many decrees does Jon need - King Of the North, heir to the Iron Throne, future husband of Dany, potential Azor Ahai...come on
Steelyuhas
Member
Well there's death, and Jon has "died".
Didn't Robb say at some point, perhaps to Cat, that he thought they would release Jon from his oath if they gave the Watch 50 men or something similar to that?
The Albatross
Member
Yeah this.
Internet all dismisses it as too obvious, yet none of my friends (and me) thought about the idea until reading it on the internet. Like as soon as I finished AFFC, and I went online to read ideas and I read that... my mind was totally blown. And then I was like "wow it's so obvious." But to a lot of readers who don't have additional guides, it isn't.
The Albatross
Member
Yeah, this happened at some point before Robb's death. I thought I remember him sending a raven to the wall to announce his legitimacy.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
At that point, Jon wasn't the Lord Commander. He got stabbed like four times. It's actually quite difficult to stab someone to death. He isn't necessarily even "dead" (even temporarily) at all.
bengraven
Member
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
You forgot the only one he actually has, 998th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.
But I think we all know Jon is the true Emperor of Westeros. Once Dany comes to Westeros, falls in love with him and they take the dragons to burn up the Others, they'll fly back to Essos and use their combined might to form an overseas Empire.
Cersei said the King can recall people from the Wall. Then again, her notions of what the King can or can't do aren't exactly reliable.
Basileus777
Member
That makes no sense. The Blackfish has zero claim to the North or Winterfell. He could claim Riverrun, but why would he ever do that when he is heirless and Edmure (and his child) is still alive?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
From what I recall she did, but she also said it while she was trying to convince Osney Kettleblack to do a bunch of shit that would by all normal laws get him executed. Not to mention she told him this while simultaneously attempting to seduce him to make it more convincing. I wouldn't doubt she was just making that shit up. Then again, I think King on the Iron Throne is basically an absolute monarchy, so who knows.
The bigger problem is that it doesn't seem super likely that the whole King in the North title is going to make a return or anything so that decree is somewhat suspect. I legitimately think its more likely that Jon will end up being the rightful heir to House Targaryen than it is that he ends up as King in the North.
The impression I got from Robb and Cat's conversation was that you can't just name a random person as Lord, it has to be someone in the actual line of succession; i.e., you can skip people (i.e. Sansa), but Robb couldn't name Jon Snow without using his King in the North powers to legitimize him first.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
Does anyone know if the "Lands of Ice and Fire" map set thingy is definitely coming out in October, or is that just the placeholder date?
PhoenixDark
Banned
Maybe in 2012 in an industrial country, but Westeros on the Wall? I think he's either dead or on the brink. Either way I don't expect him to stay that way
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
No, I say that because it's hard to hit a vital organ with a knife due to the way the rib cage is oriented. It's not implausible at all that he would survive even with medieval levels of care.
bengraven
Member
What Grimace said, but also I believe Blackfish was unofficially suggested as an heir. Technically if the Frey girl is not pregnant and Edmure is still in captivity, and Sansa is considered a criminal, then there are no living Tullys OR Starks down the line, so Blackfish is left.
No official date last I checked, though GRRM has said it's "finished" from his end.
I'm more excited about the concordance. Encyclopedias of fictional worlds are like porn to me.
Duane Cunningham
Member
Dude, you've GOT to stay out of this thread. You're really going to hate yourself when you get wrecked on some later, big spoilers.
Glad you decided to read the first book, though.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
Dammit. I assume the concordance also doesn't have a date?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
But the Tullys aren't in the line of succession for Winterfell; some random Royce cousins are. As for House Tully, Edmure is a "prisoner," but the Blackfish is just as much an outlaw right now.
It's kind of random speculation anyways since we already know for a fact that every single Stark kid other than Robb is actually alive.
Basileus777
Member
There's no way the Blackfish would ever be considered for Lord of Winterfell. Absolutely no claim, and he's not even a northerner. Robb wouldn't name someone with no Stark blood as his heir, his whole reasoning with Jon was that he is Ned Stark's son, the Blackfish isn't even related to the Starks.
When your kingdom needs an heir, you don't name a claimless southron knight famous for refusing to marry as your successor.
bengraven
Member
That's true. My laws of succession were getting confused.
Though to your second point, officially the only people considered alive are Sansa and fake Arya.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Sure, but there's still two more books to go before the war ends and they officially sort all of this stuff out; I find it rather unlikely that Arya, Sansa, Bran AND Rickon will all up and adie without being revealed by then. But see :grrmtrollface:
PhoenixDark
Banned
The Blackfish is still one of Robb's only relatives who would qualify as his successor - remember, Robb was under the assumption that he would have a son soon, so the legal writing of the letter is more in line with naming a steward than an heir. I wouldn't be surprised if he's named steward of some type (as a precaution), but Winterfell is given to a Royce. After all, Robb does not know his Royce relatives.
Children come before siblings, which is why Joffrey inherited the Iron Throne instead of Stannis.
Catelyn was concerned that Jon would be next in line if Robb's children were eliminated, giving Jon a motive to have them killed.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Nope, as stated before, siblings even today will not inherit anything before children. Up until recently spouses would inherit nothing at all unless explicitly provided for.
It's sort of an academic discussion. If any Starks live, they will inherit Winterfell regardless of whether or not Robb said to put some Royce on the Lord's seat since the Northmen basically revere the Stark family and name. I suppose if GRRM goes full troll and has Cersei perform a Karma Houdini, sure, she'd have all the Starks beheaded and stripped of their lands and titles.
I think what Catelyn was concerned about was that Jon killing Robb himself. At the time, if Jon was named heir, he was next in line period since Robb and Cat thought the rest of the kids were dead other than Sansa and the entire purpose of naming an heir was disinheriting Sansa.
But again, how would the Blackfish qualify as an heir to anything Robb has? He has no claim to Winterfell at all.
Finn of Ooo
Member
He could've named catelyn but it's highly unlikely. Bran and rickon were "dead", arya assumed dead, Sansa held by lannisters. It's pretty obvious he picked Jon.
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