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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
- Thread starter Pollux
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Kind of tangential to the conversation at hand, but one thing I've always wondered is if Jon is legitimized and is the heir, would the Riverlands even accept him? He has no Tully blood, and the Blackfish made it pretty clear that he didn't trust him, going so far as to suggest that he was in on the RW and got his spot as Lord Commander due to a deal with the Lannisters. Doesn't seem like Jon would be able to keep Robb's kingdom together long.
This was after Theon "killed" Bran and Rickon. Thats impossible. Jon is the only choice, plus its what he wanted.
Supermanisdead
Member
ugh, what a nasty person
Anyone else think most of the politics shit won't matter and the series will end in a maelstrom of chaos with barely anyone coming out alive?
Cause it looks like where it's all headed and if George wants to end the series in two books, that seems like the most likely way to do it.
I don't think we'll get any fairytale endings a lot of fans are predicting. Jon and Dany getting married and saving the world? ...yeah, sure.
Cause it looks like where it's all headed and if George wants to end the series in two books, that seems like the most likely way to do it.
I don't think we'll get any fairytale endings a lot of fans are predicting. Jon and Dany getting married and saving the world? ...yeah, sure.
SouthernDragon
Member
I said they'd marry, didn't say they'd save the world.
Come on, I don't think Jon's the Daario type of guy.
Steelyuhas
Member
Yeah I think we can all agree that Cat had some seriously clouded judgement when it came to Jon due to her hatred towards him.
What was this? I don't remember that.
I think that's what will probably happen, at least I hope it does to an extent.
When Jaime parleys with him at Riverrun in AFFC, Jaime says he can take the black. Blackfish says that they'd probably have Jon kill him, and that other stuff.
Steelyuhas
Member
I don't recall that, I'll have to re-read that chapter.
While I can see it going down like that (the whole 'it will end with everything covered in ash or snow' thing) I'd be a little disappointed. After everything that happens in Westeros over the span of the books, I kinda want to see some grand alliance kick ass and take names.
God, I hate that bitch.
Finn of Ooo
Member
Idk I viewed it more as her not wanting the child created out of her husbands affair becoming the ruler of Winterhold. Not so much her thinking Jon would kill Robb for it.
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
Winterfell. What are you, Swedish or something?
I hate her because of her bitching toward Jon, mostly in the second Jon chapter from AGOT, where she said it should have been Jon dying instead of Bran.
And lol @ Winterhold, this aint Skyrim
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Probably not, but it doesn't seem like the King in the North thing is going to stick anyways. I would have to imagine that at this point the North would be happy to settle with the original status quo so long as the person on the Iron Throne isn't a gigantic psychopath; assuming it goes back to that Riverrun were Lords of the Riverlands in their own right, so they weren't sworn to anyone else anyways.
That also assumes that Edmure dies AND his kid dies. That does bring up an interesting question though; when Cat and Robb have that conversation about legitimizing Jon, Robb tells Catelyn that Sansa is his legal heir and Arya after that. But then in AFFC, Jaime comments that if Edmure's wife gives birth to a boy, Walder Frey will have Edmure killed because then he will have a grandson with a claim as heir apparent to Lord of the Riverlands. Why is Sansa (who is not even technically a Stark at this point since she's married to Tyrion) able to inherit Winterfell, but Edmure's daughter can't?
Catelyn was always a huge bitch to Jon. The TV series really toned it down to try and convince you Catelyn wasn't an idiot making horrible decisions all the time. If you look back at her history during and prior to the series, she caused a fucking shit-ton of problems for everyone.
As for your point, granted, her hatred of Jon certainly was a part of it, but she was probably legit scared that Jon would kill Robb for the crown. I mean, she treated him like shit 100% of the time so its not like she really has any good insight into whether Jon was a good guy or not.
Steelyuhas
Member
Edmure's son would be heir to Riverun, he wouldn't have any claim to Winterfell. Sansa still has claim to Winterfell assuming Bran and Rickon are never seen again.
How was Catelyn a huge bitch to Jon?
The one time we know she was cruel to him, her favorite son had just fallen from a great height and appeared to be near death.
Her husband was leaving them, and now here comes the blight on her otherwise perfect marriage.
Im sure most people have been just as cruel once in their lives, but with less dire circumstances surrounding them.
The rest of the time, she just ignored him.
And her dislike of Jon was perfectly rationale, given that her beloved uncle won acclaim fighting the last rebellion/invasion of the bastard branch of the targaryen line.
Jon looked more like his famed ancestors than her trueborn children did.
Jon was raised and taught to think as a lord, whereas most bastards are hidden away and secretly provided for.
Jon learned his family history, whereas most bastards don't get that level of involvement.
The last time any highborn bastard got the treatment Jon did, the realm suffered the Blackfyre rebellions.
And her decisions regarding her family were the best ones she could make at any given time, from taking Tyrion to releasing Jaime.
The one time we know she was cruel to him, her favorite son had just fallen from a great height and appeared to be near death.
Her husband was leaving them, and now here comes the blight on her otherwise perfect marriage.
Im sure most people have been just as cruel once in their lives, but with less dire circumstances surrounding them.
The rest of the time, she just ignored him.
And her dislike of Jon was perfectly rationale, given that her beloved uncle won acclaim fighting the last rebellion/invasion of the bastard branch of the targaryen line.
Jon looked more like his famed ancestors than her trueborn children did.
Jon was raised and taught to think as a lord, whereas most bastards are hidden away and secretly provided for.
Jon learned his family history, whereas most bastards don't get that level of involvement.
The last time any highborn bastard got the treatment Jon did, the realm suffered the Blackfyre rebellions.
And her decisions regarding her family were the best ones she could make at any given time, from taking Tyrion to releasing Jaime.
elrechazado
Banned
Did you not read got?
Basileus777
Member
In AGOT Jon says Cat pretty much ignored him most of the time, that one incident was an outlier driven by grief.
Jon's character arc in AGOT is about his misplaced sense of entitlement and how despite being a bastard he had it pretty good. Catelyn was cold to him, but that's not really all the unexpected and many wives would have done worse than that.
Basileus777
Member
It stems from her paranoia about Jon's mother, and her fear that Ned loved whoever birthed him. Remember the incident when Catelyn confronted Ned about Ashara Dayne and he went into a cold fury? It's not so much about Jon as it is about what his mother potentially was to Ned. She's at Winterfell just having given birth to Robb and her husband comes back from the war with a child. Ned refuses to ever tell her anything about it and shuts her down brutally the one time she asks. I think most women would have a problem with that.
And her fears about Jon's children potentially being a threat if he is legitimized are hardly unfounded.
Exactly.
See what happened with Domeric and Ramsay.
See what happened with the Blackfyres.
See what the innerworkings of the Twins are.
There's a trend of bad things happening when bastards are raised alongside their trueborn siblings.
Jon we know wouldn't hurt his brothers and sisters, but as Catelyn said, could the same be true of whatever children he had?
Most of the time, i find peoples hatred of Catelyn to be for wholly unrealistic reasons, and at times borders on misogyny.
We already know the politics shit won't matter. From the first book:
"When dead men come hunting in the night, do you think it matters who sits the Iron Throne?"
PhoenixDark
Banned
Some people believe the Blackfish was misleading Jaime, and ultimately protecting Jon. I dunno. On one hand it's possible, but on the other hand the Blackfish had just lost his niece and her children largely due to Robb's lack of judgement. Is he going to give Robb the benefit of the doubt that Jon is a worthy heir, knowing the last guy Robb trusted killed his brothers?
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Exactly. Catelyn's behavior is perfectly understandable. Saying "it should have been you" was a nasty and horrible thing to say, but that's the only time she ever does anything even the slightest bit cruel towards Jon, and she was stricken with grief at the time.
Probably because a boy heir would be better and they're still young and can whelp a boy.
Basileus777
Member
Yep. A male heir is more useful, a girl would have to be married off to a non-Frey and whoever her husband was would effectively control Riverrun.
Though the whole situation is odd here because Gemma Lannister's husband is the Lord of Riverrun and Littlefinger is Lord Paramount of the Trident, whatever claim Edmure's son has is purely theoretical because the Tullys have been divested of all their lands and titles.
Takamura-San
Member
I don't know if this was discussed here.
But I got a sense from AFOC that Jaime and Cersei may not be Tywin's sons.
Did I misread something there?
But I got a sense from AFOC that Jaime and Cersei may not be Tywin's sons.
Did I misread something there?
There have been ongoing theories about Tywin's kids, especially Tyrion but Jaime and Cersei to a lesser extent, secretly being a product of King Aerys either raping or seducing his wife. I really doubt it though. It seems like it would really cheaper all the family conflict we've seen for five books if they suddenly weren't family anymore. I'd be pissed if it were true. No more secret Targaryens please.
Also, to the earlier comment about Blackfish protecting Jon, why would he? Has he ever even met Jon? It seems like he would trust Catelyn's impulses.
Takamura-San
Member
I found the segment in question:
This is Jaime Speaking to Lady Genna.
Jaime kissed her cheek. He left a son.
Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most, in truth.
That was a queer remark. Why should you fear?
Jaime, she said, tugging on his ear, sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joannas breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and theres some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak . . . but Tyrion is Tywins son, not you. I said so once to your fathers face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years.
Steelyuhas
Member
Pretty sure that just means that Tyrion is much more like Tywin than Jaime is.
Yep.
elrechazado
Banned
That is the last quote that should be taken literally. There are indications that aerys might have raped tywin's wife and some or all kids aren't Tywin's, but that's not one of them.
Basileus777
Member
I said the same thing about Aegon is alive theories back in the day. I can't discount anything after ADWD. GRRM loves his secret identities, false deaths, and soap twists.
So does Ned's spirit now reside in Tommen/Brienne's swords (assuming Tommen inherited Joffery's sword), or did his spirit escape when the sword was smelted?
PhoenixDark
Banned
ADWD has more convincing segments than that, which isn't convincing at all imo. I took it as her basically telling Jaime he's dumber than a bag of rocks, and Tyrion is the true heir to their father's cunning.
ADWD mentions that Aerys might have raped Tywin's wife, which lends itself more to the theory. Still, I don't believe it at all. Way too contrived
Finn of Ooo
Member
Nope just playing too much skyrim lately lol
Does anyone else hate the concept of resurrecting in the got universe? The number of people that have been rezzed is almost comical by now. Also, all of GRRM's red herring "fake deaths" are written in the same way at the end of a chapter that I'm not even shocked at anything anymore, since I don't believe whichever character it is is actually dead.
Finn of Ooo
Member
It would be a lot worse if there were no repercussions but as is, I think it's ok. Bit of a Deus ex machina though.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
No, no no. I'm not saying a claim to Winterfell, I'm saying why would his son have a claim to Riverrun but not a daughter.
The problem, I think, is that while it's easy to just call someone else Lord Paramount (or whatever the traditional title is for the Lord of the House that is in control of one of the Seven Kingdoms), the rest of the Lords and peasants don't just stop being loyal to the house; i.e. how pretty much all of the Northman revere the Starks. Just having a Frey as Lord of Riverrun is probably not seen as likely to "stick," unless they get a Tully back in there.
Basileus777
Member
Yeah, but it's not like you can just replace the Lord of Riverrun with Edmure's son. Emmon Frey was given that title for a reason, he's married to Tywin's sister.
The Albatross
Member
I'm still wagering that new Aegon is a hoax. Or a massive waste of pages. Either or.
He's the mummer's dragon. I've seen theories that he's actually Illyrio's son because of the statue he has in Pentos
John Dunbar
correct about everything
That or a Blackfyre, or possibly both. Some have also argued that he's the real deal, and the mummer refers to Varys, making him Varys' dragon.
Funny things is that if he is a Blackfyre, he's actually more of a "dragon" than Dany or anyone other spawn of Aerys.
THE WOLF IN THE NORTH!
SouthernDragon
Member
Well, how can Ned go into his sword (wut) if his sword was melted?
I was genuinely upset at that. What the fuck. The Greatsword Ice melted into some shit sword for Joffrey.
I was genuinely upset at that. What the fuck. The Greatsword Ice melted into some shit sword for Joffrey.
diunxx
Member
Isn't the line something like "he took some umm liberties during the bedding" I took that as the king rubbing some titties and maybe some fingering, I doubt Aeries just went and raped her with all the western lords watching.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_du_seigneur (Right of the First Night). IIRC the Boltons practice this. I think Ramsay got made this way after Roose got denied his rights and he killed the man and raped the woman after that.
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