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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
- Thread starter Pollux
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NekoFever
Member
No, he should finish this damn series.
Wheel of Time just finished so yeah if that could be anything could!
It sets up what
current mission is and how she has changed as a character compared to when she first set of (
). Here she revealed what
. That makes it foreshadowing. As for
, no one but GRRM knows what role he's gonna play in the future, so we can't say how minor or unimportant he is.
Outside of that, I'll agree that it was a refresher chapter, so that the reader is reminded as to what is going on with her plotline, but the 'nothing happened' comments are just as ridiculous here as they have ever been.
Arianne's
like her newfound respect for her father and her caution in her actions
her relationship with her brother really was, and contemplated Dany's character in such a way that leads me to believe that when news of Quentyn's fate reaches her ears, she'll be against Dany or maybe even Aegon
Daemon
Outside of that, I'll agree that it was a refresher chapter, so that the reader is reminded as to what is going on with her plotline, but the 'nothing happened' comments are just as ridiculous here as they have ever been.
Mattdaddy
Gold Member
I can't remember who it was, but there was a female character that I always imagined looked like Kim Kardashian. I just remember she was described as having that kinda look and she was horny, and I couldn't help but think of Kim K when I read her parts. It was either Arianne or the chick that Cersei hooks up with.
But yeah I love Victarion, such a badass maniac. Has he had a sample chapter released?
But yeah I love Victarion, such a badass maniac. Has he had a sample chapter released?
Certainly he could have done all of that stuff plus included the plot-related developments of the second chapter? I don't mind foreshadowing and character development, but it should be accompanied with some sort of plot momentum.
Granted, the early chapters often have more refreshing and expositing to do, but the overall trend in the series is one of drawing everything out (especially the travels of characters), so this early look at TWOW isn't too encouraging.
I was under the impression that they started digging because they were desperate for a way to get across the Wall in order to escape the Others? That would mean the Others were already rising, but I could be remembering wrong.
Thought the new preview chapter was pretty ok.
Seems to be setting up some conflict in Arianne's character with her ambivalence towards Quentyn, and her analysis of Dany's motivations would suggest she still has some latent jealousy and ambition for greater power as well. My guess is its leading up to her being tempted with a marriage pact with Aegon.
Also got some clear indication in that one girl's prophecy that Dany and Aegon are going to lead to some serious bloodshed.
Also got some clear indication in that one girl's prophecy that Dany and Aegon are going to lead to some serious bloodshed.
PhoenixDark
Banned
It's her first chapter in the book, what do you expect? Luckily the chapter purposely skips a lot of the journey. Also we already know her story ramps up pretty quickly, given what happens in her second chapter (and what will happen in the third). And I'd argue this chapter has more than a few big revelations.
thoughts:
Overall a good chapter imo, and something I've been waiting for: a more broad look at the Dorish lords and their reaction to Aegon. It sounds like Doran is running out of time in terms of waiting for Dany, so his reaction to Quentyn's death will be very interesting. Also I'm curious how we'll get his reaction to the news, with Arianne and Areo gone; I have a feeling Areo won't make it back to Sunspear. I'd hate for Doran to hear the news in an epilogue chapter...
Westeros forums have determined Aurane Waters is now a pirate king in the Stepstones, but my reading of the chapter gave the impression that he was on his way to Dany; aren't the Stepstones near Essos?
Most fascinating thing about the chapter: Arianne expressing concern (and jealousy) about Dany, and the discussion of whether Dany has inherited the Mad King's madness. I get the impression Arianne will do something very rash once she hears about Quentyn, regardless of what Doran wants. Worse yet, if Doran were to die before hearing the news...Arianne could ally "Aegon" against Dany. The chapter also highlights the first blatant anti-dragon strategy I've seen in the series, which just so happened to be told to Arianne...
Westeros forums have determined Aurane Waters is now a pirate king in the Stepstones, but my reading of the chapter gave the impression that he was on his way to Dany; aren't the Stepstones near Essos?
Most fascinating thing about the chapter: Arianne expressing concern (and jealousy) about Dany, and the discussion of whether Dany has inherited the Mad King's madness. I get the impression Arianne will do something very rash once she hears about Quentyn, regardless of what Doran wants. Worse yet, if Doran were to die before hearing the news...Arianne could ally "Aegon" against Dany. The chapter also highlights the first blatant anti-dragon strategy I've seen in the series, which just so happened to be told to Arianne...
Cpt.Underpants
Member
I think they were looking for the Horn of Jormun and they were already running away from The Others
loool
Basileus777
Member
As long he doesn't go door to door asking if anyone has seen ̶a̶ ̶m̶a̶i̶d̶e̶n̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶r̶e̶d̶ ̶h̶a̶i̶r̶ a knight who cuts girls faces, we'll be ok,
Im hyped for that fight :/
PhoenixDark
Banned
Me too lol. I can't help but think
Areo
The north and south plotlines will be very interesting - and also quite separated. Given the Lannister situation, from their diminished troops to Jaime's disappearance, it's hard to imagine them paying too much attention to what happens in the north; and the winter will make it very hard for them to determine what's happening. Which of course gives Stannis quite an advantage, IF he can defeat the Boltons.
Dunno...Stannis' victory seems so sure, so obvious that I'm dreading Martin has some ridiculous way for him to surprisingly lose.
Well, a small plot development happens here. Arianne sets off on her journey and got as far as Ghost Hill. That qualifies as plot.
But to answer your question, yes, that could have happened in the second chapter, but I don't see any indication that that the best way to go about doing it. And neither do you, because you don't know the entire story. It always baffles me when people complain about chapters or story lines being filler. I'll grant that in some cases, where the plot is typical, you can see what is important and what isn't beforehand. But this is a series that is known for being unpredictable, and we cannot know what will play an important part or not. Maybe Daemon the castle ladies here will play an significant role and their introduction is vital. We'll only know whats filler or not when we've put down the final book and looked back at what did not serve any kind of purpose whatsoever. Until then, who knows. Sorry, but it's just a pet peeve that annoys me. It's a presumption that a reader knows what the author should write better than the author. And sometimes that's true, but you don't know until you finish the story first.
Anyway, I disagree. Not all chapters have to be accompanied by plot momentum. It's perfectly alright to have breather chapters like this. If anything, they can make the plot driven chapters more emphasized by contrast.
Basileus777
Member
Gutshot is spot on here, it does read just like another ADWD filler chapter that didn't make the cut for the book.
People aren't reading this chapter in a vacuum, it's following two books that were marred by similar chapters. No one would care if these sorts of problems weren't already a serious issue with the series.
I don't think George would put out any chapters that would really move the plot forward as a preview.
Though judging by the other one he released last year,
, it actually moved pretty fast; setting up some very interesting things going forward.
I guess the south is still "warming" up, if you will, when it comes to shit happening as I expect the plot in the north will be hot from the gate.
Though judging by the other one he released last year,
Theon's
I guess the south is still "warming" up, if you will, when it comes to shit happening as I expect the plot in the north will be hot from the gate.
toddhunter
Member
After reading a dance with dragons I would have to agree. *boom tish*
Besides beating up on some tired and lonely night watchmen the others up North have not done a lot. Look to Stannis to take the big "Oh my god we can't stop this evil" wiping out before too long.
Plenty happened in the last two books as well. I'll accept that some people didn't like what happened. But lots of stuff happened. And it doesn't defeat the argument I stated. You don't know what will play a role. The seemingly random stuff set up in AFFC and ADWD may come to play a part in the next two books. We won't know until the end of the story. We can make a lot of judgements on material we have available now, but what is filler can only be known at the end, not before.
Oh, the fight should be cool. Just not the five chapters of wandering Dorne beforehand.
Basileus777
Member
The problem isn't "stuff happening" it's the awful pacing and plethora of bloat and filler.
It doesn't really matter if the improbable scenario of all these side details becoming essential pans out, it doesn't make for good story telling, and AFFC/ADWD were lesser books for it. And I'd like to see GRRM try to make things like the number of turtles on the Rhoyne, the endless food porn, and all the detailing of mercenary companies in ADWD become plot relevant, but it won't happen. You could cut a 1/3 off of many chapters in ADWD, cut out a few chapters entirely and lose nothing, and if the series ever finishes, I doubt I will look back and think otherwise.
The GRRM books were always bloated with descriptions that could easily be cut. Sometimes I found them engaging, sometimes I'd find them dull, but that doesn't make them filler. Bloated, maybe, but his other books can be accused of that as well.
As for the quality of the books, we'll just have to agree to disagree I suppose. Both AFFC and ADWD are fantastic and easily match the rest of the series in terms of quality. Pacing is another story, because the high political maneuvering has died down, but I don't find that to be unintentional so I accept it. But the actual writing is just as good.
toddhunter
Member
The thing with the other books was I would read a boring POV and would be thinking "oh no not this again" the next time I reached that character. However without fail that character would now be doing something really interesting.
In other words, boring chapters existed to lead up to great chapters.
The most recent two books have had long stretches of different plots which just seem to go nowhere and have no interest for me. Unless he is building up to the most awesome payoff ever for Dorne or the Iron Isles gang, I could have done without it. I think there is little chance of this payoff happening.
Finishing the main story and then spinning off into these places in great detail would be the way to go to satisfy me.
I think the problem GRRM has is that he loves his characters so much that he thinks everyone loves them. But in reality no one gives a shit about Dorne or the iron islands, or anyone in essos that isnt Dany or part of her group or Arya in Braavos. They are all irrelevant because the main characters have been established from the first book and we want to know whats going on about them. We don't want a victarion or Arianne chapter when we could have an arya tyrion or jon chapter instead.
PhoenixDark
Banned
This was apparent in this latest chapter, where you have another young child with green dreams, another young girl who wants to be a knight/fighter...all while many readers think "why can't we just have more Bran and Arya."
Still I do like the overall cast of the novels, but feel it's been time to kill off a few for some time; Martin has a reputation for killing major characters but to be honest he hasn't done so in some time - instead minor characters get killed in mass, only for him to add tons more. I actually really liked all the Iron Islands stuff, I've been waiting for more Dorne info (hence why I really liked this chapter), etc. Each has clear narrative ties to the main story (Victarion sailing to Dany, Theon with Stannis, etc) but I'd prefer they not branch off so wildly (ie introducing an onslaught of new characters).
Arianne's chapters will have heavy ties to a major arc within TWOW (
Aegon and his southern campaign, and a potential rebellion against Dany
Cersei, who will certainly be following Aegon's moves closely
You make a good point about him just adding on character after character and repeating traits that characters we like more already have.
But can anyone tell me why the hell we needed an Asha POV in any of the books other than ADWD to show us stannis?
I agree with the killing statement also, enough with the fake death cliffhangers
But can anyone tell me why the hell we needed an Asha POV in any of the books other than ADWD to show us stannis?
I agree with the killing statement also, enough with the fake death cliffhangers
Basileus777
Member
I think you are right about this. I believe Ned is the only non-guest POV character to be permanently killed off.
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
The shit that happens in Dorne was interesting to me. The only good Iron Islander left Westeros and he's only good when he's on a boat.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
The Dorne and Iron Island characters are awesome, though.
Honestly, I'd much rather read Arianne, Theon or Victarion chapters than another fucking Jon Snow chapter. In truth, I think just about all of the POV characters are pretty interesting, and I'm glad Martin spends time on these characters. The Dorne chapters have been pretty much consistently great (Princess in the Tower is one of my favorite chapters in the whole series).
I loved the Theon chapters, not so much victarion or arianne. I guess its just preference because I do like the Dorne characters and don't mind Hotah's chapters. As far as the iron islanders go I can't stand any of them except for Theon and Asha and pretty much because the north chapters were so good in ADWD.
and no Jon, Tyrion, and Dany had enough if not too many chapters. That was the problem with ADWD for me not enough balance. Where the hell was Sansa she got like no chapters in 2 books. I don't even like her as a character but she is way more important to the plot than anyone from Dorne or the iron islands.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
I was going on what Ygritte said. The Wildlings might have just been looking for the Horn of Joruman to fuck over the "Southron Lordlings". Remember Ygritte mentioned that while going through the crypts they woke up something terrible?
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
The Dorne chapters really grew on me with a second reading but the Ironborn suplots suck ass save for Theon and maybe Victarion once he starts getting all crazy with Morroqo.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
I'd much rather have the POV switch from Arianne to Daemon Sands in the scenes that involve her. He seems like he would be an interesting character. He banged Arriane when he was 14, Is a bastard child to a nobleman, was Oberyn's squire, was willing to squire for Tyrion after Oberyn championed his cause, and [Winds of Winter Spoilers]
.
he might have been Oberyn's lover
The Dorne chapters were my favorite in Feast for Crows. I really want to see this country become more involved in the upcoming book.
PhoenixDark
Banned
It wasn't revealed, although it was someone who Arianne brought with her.
I can't wait to see what happens when Cersei hears Myrcella has been injured.
Backwards Marathon
Member
Finally! Finished A Dance With Dragons, now I must wait like the rest of you...
Yeah, I was considering that as well on my re-read. If they had indeed woken The Others while digging, however, it would seem unlikely they'd be able to just hang around the excavation site while the undead are rampaging about.
That does beg the question of how exactly so many Wildlings managed to survive for so long as The Others, who, judging by the very first Prologue, had made their way close enough to the Wall as to disrupt the operations of the Night's Watch well before the events of the book even take place, let alone after the good year and a half (or so) that pass between when the series starts and when Mance lays siege to The Wall.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Mance was a great tactician and had scouts to track the movement of the Night Watch - as well as the movement of Others, presumably - but it seems like the Others could easily attack a permanent camp full of women and children. We know they did attack that one town in ADWD, and I'd imagine they attacked others too. Mance was moving his people closer to the Wall in an attempt to escape the Others. Clearly the Wildlings avoided being completely exterminated, but they suffered some big casualties.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
And now your watch begins.
That's the issue with a zombie-like opposing force, though: for every one Mance and the wildlings lost, their enemy's numbers grew by one (assuming those killed weren't mutilated in a way that prevented them from being wighted). I would assume, acting with the intention of exterminating all human life, The Others could have easily wiped out the good majority of the wildling population in a few months or even a year, no matter how organized they were. Certainly a large baggage train full of women and children could never survive an onslaught like the Night's Watch endured at The Fist.
Perhaps, then, The Others have ulterior motives absent the extinction of all life?
Basileus777
Member
Hightower seems nice. A wealthy family not involved in any fighting.
Sunspear (Martell) might be an interesting place to live. Warm, removed from the war, etc. IIRC I got Mediterranean vibe from it.
To be honest, I'd just want to be an unknown farmer, preferably somewhere remote but with fertile land so I can do my farming in peace.
Being part of a House just means that sooner or later you're gonna be orphaned or killed, it doesn't look that enjoyable to me at all.
Being part of a House just means that sooner or later you're gonna be orphaned or killed, it doesn't look that enjoyable to me at all.
Basileus777
Member
Being a Westerosi peasant is far from a better alternative. You're just as likely to get killed, but even if you don't, you still have a shitty life.
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