I don't think you can say for certain that this was the plan since they always had Aegon in the background. It's possible that Viserys was the original goal and Aegon just the backup, but given how emotionally and philosophically invested Varys was in Aegon when he killed Kevan, I don't think that's likely. It seems more reasonable that Viserys was a tool to either build an army while Aegon was kept secret that Aegon could take over later, or that they were aware of how awful Viserys was and his job was really to launch a brutal invasion with a barbarian army so that Aegon could be the hero and save everyone from it and build his popular support that way.
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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
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I don't think you can say for certain that this was the plan since they always had Aegon in the background. It's possible that Viserys was the original goal and Aegon just the backup, but given how emotionally and philosophically invested Varys was in Aegon when he killed Kevan, I don't think that's likely. It seems more reasonable that Viserys was a tool to either build an army while Aegon was kept secret that Aegon could take over later, or that they were aware of how awful Viserys was and his job was really to launch a brutal invasion with a barbarian army so that Aegon could be the hero and save everyone from it and build his popular support that way.
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
Damn, I went and forgot all about Aegon and Varys.
Robert ordered her death when Varys informed him via Jorah that she was with child.
Neuromancer
Member
Yeah, but it's Varys we're talking about. Robert knew what Varys wanted him to know.
Yeah, but if I remember correctly at this point in the story Viserys was already killed by Drogo. Dany was the only Targaryen left (as far as we knew).
I think that he was already dead, but the plan to have dany killed was done before they knew viserys was dead.
Basileus777
Member
I can't recall the specifics but didn't Varys send Jorah a message to stop the assassination? Dany lives, and Drogo is still angry, as he probably wanted.
In the book, it is ambiguous. Varys might have instructed Jorah to stop the poisoner, or Jorah might have acted of his own will.
On the show, Jorah clearly acted on his own after receiving a pardon from Varys to stop the assassination plot, and Varys did not attempt to stop it.
PhoenixDark
Banned
To me the weird thing about that Varys conversation with Illyrio is the existence of Aegon. If Viserys truly managed to gain access to a huge army and somehow got Drogo to cross the sea, was the plan for Aegon to meet them at some point and join the gang so to speak? I've heard others suggest Varys didn't care much about Viserys or Dany, given the dangerous situation he put them in with little to no protection - compared to the very sheltered and planned life Aegon lived. Perhaps this lends credence to the idea that Varys was never truly a Targ loyalist, and instead is working to destroy the line and replace it with Blackfyres, namely Aegon
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
Aegon only thinks he's a Targaryen. Varys and Illyrio have been lying to him his whole life.
The theory is Illyrio's wife descended from a daughter of Daemon Blackfyre.
Neuromancer
Member
Wait whaaat
Sho_Nuff82
Member
I think the most obvious answer has to be considered, that Varys and Illyrio aren't nearly as good at the Game of Thrones as they think they are. Remember, the dragons were an accident, and Aegon/Dany pairing was only a backup for Viserys/Arianne (even though Aegon was first in line for succession, Viserys would have tried to kill him if he knew he existed), which involved Dany convincing a Dothraki horselord to support Viserys. All the while, Varys had to save his own ass by pretending to be a staunch supporter of the Baratheons and Lannisters.
Isn't the real most obvious answer that GRRM hadn't planned on Aegon being in the series when he wrote that scene?
Basileus777
Member
All the descriptions about the sack had been written at that point, so I think he probably at least had some vague plan for Aegon already. Even though he is a discovery writer and the Aegon reveal wasn't executed well, I don't think he actually thought of the idea that late.
A lot about Vary's and Illyrio's plans don't make sense - unless they are lying all the time, which could be likely. It seems more and more that they wanted Daenerys to be killed in order to inflame Khal Drogo against Robert. But two things don't add up.
During their meeting under King's Landing no mention is made of killing Daenery's, instead Illyrio states that Drogo won't invade until the baby is born. But if the goal is just to have Drogo stir up trouble why would it matter if the baby is born or not as they can just kill Dany in order to accomplish their goal. With the baby dead there will be one less rival for Aegon.
Secondly, if they wanted Dany to die why would Illyrio gift her with rare and extremely valuable dragon eggs. Yes, Illlyrio is rich and can afford to be generous, but dragon eggs are a one-of-a-kind things and you would think they would be reserved for Aegon.
During their meeting under King's Landing no mention is made of killing Daenery's, instead Illyrio states that Drogo won't invade until the baby is born. But if the goal is just to have Drogo stir up trouble why would it matter if the baby is born or not as they can just kill Dany in order to accomplish their goal. With the baby dead there will be one less rival for Aegon.
Secondly, if they wanted Dany to die why would Illyrio gift her with rare and extremely valuable dragon eggs. Yes, Illlyrio is rich and can afford to be generous, but dragon eggs are a one-of-a-kind things and you would think they would be reserved for Aegon.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
There is also the chance that Varys and Illryio have the same general plan with different preferences, with Illyrio working alone to support Dany/Viserys, and Varys working alone for Aegon.
With Aegon pairing up with Dany being a match of convenience for Varys' plan since both of her potential husbands were dead. In this scenario, Varys trying outright to assassinate Dany almost makes sense. Perhaps he even dumped Tyrion with Illyrio knowing that the dwarf's trademark cynicism would be able to talk Aegon out of going East. He didn't seem the least bit concerned about Dany when explaining his plans to Kevin Lannister.
Edit: Illyrio gifting the Dragon eggs to Dany makes more sense this way as well. He also raised Rhaegar's siblings for a time under his own roof, while he left his son to be a street rat.
With Aegon pairing up with Dany being a match of convenience for Varys' plan since both of her potential husbands were dead. In this scenario, Varys trying outright to assassinate Dany almost makes sense. Perhaps he even dumped Tyrion with Illyrio knowing that the dwarf's trademark cynicism would be able to talk Aegon out of going East. He didn't seem the least bit concerned about Dany when explaining his plans to Kevin Lannister.
Edit: Illyrio gifting the Dragon eggs to Dany makes more sense this way as well. He also raised Rhaegar's siblings for a time under his own roof, while he left his son to be a street rat.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
Where did this come from? Is this from what Illyrio said to Tyrion? "Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon"
Also the stated reason Illyrio wants for supporting the Targaryens retaking the throne is to become The Master of Coin, but that is obviously bullshit. It's a high position and in control of a lot of money especially when you can route it through your own business enterprises, but I doubt it is enough of a reason for a Magister to do all this.
Talking about how Illyrio and Varys don't play the Game of Thrones as well as they might think, remember that quote from Griff to Septa Lemore? "Very little of what the fat man has anticipated has come to pass"
We all know Jon Snow is going to ride Drogon while Bran controls one of the other ones
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
Um, pretty sure Dany gets Drogon.
Its not something that's confirmed, just a possibility. It is just as likely that Aegon is a Targaryen, but is descended from Aerion Brightflame. Illyrio's second wife, Serra, may be Aerion's daughter.
But in the grand scheme of things that quote is quite accurate. The Targaryens all have the same blood. Who cares if this one is a bastard or true-born; certainly not the actual dragons.
Deadly Monk
Banned
Yeah, Drogon is definitely Dany's dragon. It's funny. The entire time I read the first book and on to the second, I never thought about what's going to become of three dragons. I guess I always assumed she'd ride one and the other two would follow. There are definitely going to be two other riders.
Unless one of the dragons doesn't make it.
Unless one of the dragons doesn't make it.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
Dany is doing a great job at controlling Drogon :S
If The Others / White Walkers storyline gets wrapped up, it will probably involve the Dragons. The White Walkers themselves are weak against fire. The Others / White Walkers disappeared from The World right around when Aegon came over to Westeros with his Dragons and didn't come back until years after dragons dissapeared from Westeros, an 8000 year period. The Lord Commander of the Nights Watch Jon Snow may be a Targaryen that could control one as well as Bran who is held up North, is going to be a great Green Sage that is being prepped to control something that can fly.
Then again The Others might have only come back because of The Wildings unearthing those old tombs.
If The Others / White Walkers storyline gets wrapped up, it will probably involve the Dragons. The White Walkers themselves are weak against fire. The Others / White Walkers disappeared from The World right around when Aegon came over to Westeros with his Dragons and didn't come back until years after dragons dissapeared from Westeros, an 8000 year period. The Lord Commander of the Nights Watch Jon Snow may be a Targaryen that could control one as well as Bran who is held up North, is going to be a great Green Sage that is being prepped to control something that can fly.
Then again The Others might have only come back because of The Wildings unearthing those old tombs.
Deadly Monk
Banned
I think Bran is going to learn a lot from his new teacher but I get the feeling that he is not going to stay in and become another sage. Not only does Martin like to mess around with people's destinies and surprise people, but what I got from Bran's perspective is (or at least the way he described the man in the tree), that is not the future for him. He is going to abandon that I believe and become a hero his own way. Maybe even riding/controlling a dragon. But he is not staying in a cave for the rest of his life. Maybe he will rebuild Winterfell?
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
Bran the Builder Jr.?
Deadly Monk
Banned
If Arya is with Nymeria again, doesn't that pretty much confirm she's a goner? She would never be able to escape the Faceless Men.
Bran: He didn't seem happy to realize what might become of him sitting in that cave for too many years. Maybe I'm reading into it too much but I think he will break away from that much to the behest of the forest people. He will go to help Jon.
What was his original dream? Didn't he always want to be a warrior of some sort? I don't remember too well.
hemtae
Member
Aegon the conqueror was only about 300 years before the story started. The Long Night was even before the Andals.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
I think your timing is off in the bolded. The Targaeryans invaded westeros with their dragons only a few hundred years before the books start, I believe. Something in the range of 300-400 years. Others were already long relegated to folklore at that point.
Edit: looks like hemtae beat me.
So George has another TWoW chapter (or part of one) up on his site. Haven't read it yet. Might be one of those he'd have read previously.
http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html
It's
http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html
It's
Arianne's
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
fallengorn
Bitches love smiley faces
Yeah, he should really take some time off to take some HTML classes to spruce it up.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Or maybe pay someone with his billions to do it.
Cpt.Underpants
Member
Someone is actually managing George's website, it's just strange the format is kinda....old
Poimandres
Member
I just finished Dance With Dragons... what a fantastic series.
I'd heard there was some sort of "jump the shark" moment in the book. I was waiting for it, but it never came. Much more satisfying than AFFC but god damn it leaves you hanging.
Best moment for me? I think it was the last Victarion chapter. So blood thirsty!
Also, how many chapters from The Winds of Winter have been released so far?
I'd heard there was some sort of "jump the shark" moment in the book. I was waiting for it, but it never came. Much more satisfying than AFFC but god damn it leaves you hanging.
Best moment for me? I think it was the last Victarion chapter. So blood thirsty!
Also, how many chapters from The Winds of Winter have been released so far?
Cpt.Underpants
Member
PhoenixDark
Banned
Are you sure it's a new
chapter? I'm at work and can't check. I know one was released last year that ends with
Arianne
her being taken to visit Aegon and Connington at the newly captured Storm's End
Cpt.Underpants
Member
I think so,
the chapter's content are just her musings, regrets, travels and her lust.
It did not mention her being taken to Connington.
This is the chapter that precedes the one George read a year and a half ago.;
Arriane I to Arianne II
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