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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

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F

Forsaken82

Member
Crisco said:
They are red herrings, but not in the way you think. GRRM is constantly trying to make us wonder "who is Jon Snow's mother/father" , when it really doesn't matter. At all. We already know for sure he's a Stark, either Eddard's or Lyanna's (again, it doesn't matter), and that's all that counts. Whoever his other parent was is inconsequential.
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I would hardly call it inconsequential if it ends up he is actually half targaryan. He might not have initial claim to the throne with Dany or Aegon out there, but that doesn't make it "inconsequential".

Fire and ice would now have more meaning beyond just Dragons and white walkers (assuming that is the core idea behind it currenty) as Jon was born from both Fire (targaryan) and ice (starks of winterfell/blood of the north))

I simply think it is to early to call it inconsequential.
 
W

Wh0 N0se

Member
Crisco said:
I guess if you still think the story is going to end with Dany flying to the wall with her dragons, fighting off the others, marrying Jon and then two go on to live happily ever after as King and Queen of Westeros, then sure, it matters. I personally think it's pretty clear through five books that's never going to happen.
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Dany and Jon 4eva!!

Just joking, in all seriousness, who's actually going to end up on the Iron throne (If it still exists afterwards, could be back to the 7 kingdoms!)? I wouldn't be surprised if it was Littlefinger to be honest! Or at least, Littlefinger controlling Sansa, I don't really subscribe to the theory that she'll kill him.

Do we think it'll be a main character upon the Iron Throne or a secondary character? Can't see Dany or Aegon for reasons that have been stated many times and I don't think Jon will if he truly is Azor Ahai reborn.
 
C

Crisco

Banned
Forsaken82 said:
I would hardly call it inconsequential if it ends up he is actually half targaryan. He might not have initial claim to the throne with Dany or Aegon out there, but that doesn't make it "inconsequential".

Fire and ice would now have more meaning beyond just Dragons and white walkers (assuming that is the core idea behind it currenty) as Jon was born from both Fire (targaryan) and ice (starks of winterfell/blood of the north))

I simply think it is to early to call it inconsequential.
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I guess I just don't think that being a Targ is all that special. From what we know, they were a relatively minor noble family from old Valyria who were lucky enough to survive the doom with a handful of intact dragons. Some of them have prophetic dreams, but that's hardly a trait unique to Targs in this story. There was certainly nothing special about Viserys, and Dany would have likely died just the same if it weren't for her eggs hatching, an event that GRRM has described as basically a one in a million miracle (remember, Targs had been unsuccessfully trying to hatch eggs for decades, with tragic consequences). Dragons are "fire", and Dany herself may be special, but Targs as a whole are mostly a bunch of pretty haired in-breeders who only mattered for ~300 years.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
The red herrings seem more about local speculation and Ned's honor than an attempt to trick readers. Lots of families would like to believe a woman from their town overtook Ned's honor as seen in ADWD.
 
D

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
I wonder if the Iron Throne has any Valkyrian Steal sword in it.

Also, I just found out that the 'Alchemist' in the prologue of AFFC was Jaqen. I still am on the camp that Jaqen getting tossed in the dungeons wasn't part of some master plan, but him fucking something up, though it is interesting that he is likely still at the Citadel.

Also, I think Balon was likely killed by a Faceless Man hired by Euron, but no Jaqen. Jaqen would have had to cover to much ground I believe.
 
Lactose_Intolerant

Lactose_Intolerant

Member
Drkirby said:
Also, I just found out that the 'Alchemist' in the prologue of AFFC was Jaqen. I still am on the camp that Jaqen getting tossed in the dungeons wasn't part of some master plan, but him fucking something up, though it is interesting that he is likely still at the Citadel.

Also, I think Balon was likely killed by a Faceless Man hired by Euron, but no Jaqen. Jaqen would have had to cover to much ground I believe.
Click to expand...

I think the theory is that Euron had to give up his most valuable object to get a faceless man to kill balon. Euron had a dragon egg I believe. Jaqen was sent to find info on how to hatch it. He went to King's Landing for obvious reasons. That's where they had dragons. 2nd best spot is the building with the most knowledge in the world.
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
Whoa, I am missing something...

I did know that was Jaquen (there's a tell in the text I caught, hook nose perhaps?)

Where's the idea that Balon was killed by a faceless man from? And Euron had a dragon's egg?
 
F

Forsaken82

Member
Crisco said:
I guess I just don't think that being a Targ is all that special. From what we know, they were a relatively minor noble family from old Valyria who were lucky enough to survive the doom with a handful of intact dragons. Some of them have prophetic dreams, but that's hardly a trait unique to Targs in this story. There was certainly nothing special about Viserys, and Dany would have likely died just the same if it weren't for her eggs hatching, an event that GRRM has described as basically a one in a million miracle (remember, Targs had been unsuccessfully trying to hatch eggs for decades, with tragic consequences). Dragons are "fire", and Dany herself may be special, but Targs as a whole are mostly a bunch of pretty haired in-breeders who only mattered for ~300 years.
Click to expand...

The problem with your thought process however is that while the past may seem irrelevant when it comes to the Targaryans importance, the existing timeline for the entire series so far points to their blood line being extremely important. What is "inconsequential" as you put it is the name sake as it was hundreds of years ago. There presence in the world as we are reading currently is a much bigger deal (in my opinion at least). The return of dragons is clearly going to be important when it comes to fighting the Wights. Magic has also returned in some fashion due to the return of dragons, and lets not even ignore the fact that the current "game of thrones" wouldn't even exist if Dany was actually assassinated and the dragons never hatched. Would Aegon even attempt to fight for the throne if Dany was dead? There wouldn't be much of a story without the Targaryan's presence in these books. At least that is the way I view things and why I feel that they mean more than you make them out to mean.
 
J

JerkShep

Member
Lactose_Intolerant said:
I think the theory is that Euron had to give up his most valuable object to get a faceless man to kill balon. Euron had a dragon egg I believe. Jaqen was sent to find info on how to hatch it. He went to King's Landing for obvious reasons. That's where they had dragons. 2nd best spot is the building with the most knowledge in the world.
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but the Faceless Men are the descendants of the slaves in Valyria, aren't they? I doubt they want to hatch a dragon's egg. It's more likely that they want to find a way to destroy them. And it seems very unlikely to me that Euron had an egg and gave it away, he probably hired a FM with something valuable obtained in his travels.
 
V

viciouskillersquirrel

Member
Lactose_Intolerant said:
Aegon is a Blackfyre and is Illirio's child. illirio's dead wife was a blackfyre. There are lots of posts about this around the internet if you google. Obviously this is just a theory like all the rest but there is evidence to back it up.

Why would Varys come to Westeros to become an adviser? Sure he has a place at court but he was already a rich man. He has no lands or real claim to anything. No allies there. Plus it is costing Illirio tons of money to keep sending kids over there. Where is the profit in this scenario without someone to take over the realm for them?

I don't know when Aegon was born (if he isn't the real Aegon) and how it compares to how long Varys has been in Westeros. I'm guessing it's pretty damn close though. I'm going to guess if he wasn't born yet Illirio was still hoping to get his wife pregnant sooner or later

Everything else makes pretty good sense though.
Click to expand...
He could be, I suppose. It still all makes sense either way.
 
K

KuwabaraTheMan

Banned
Ignatz Mouse said:
Whoa, I am missing something...

I did know that was Jaquen (there's a tell in the text I caught, hook nose perhaps?)

Where's the idea that Balon was killed by a faceless man from? And Euron had a dragon's egg?
Click to expand...

In A Storm of Swords, the Ghost of High Heart says "I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings."

That seems to pretty clearly say that Balon was killed by a Faceless Man hired by Euron (the drowned crow). In A Feast For Crows, Euron mentions having a dragon's egg but throwing it overboard in a fit of rage because he couldn't get it to hatch. Some people have theorized that he actually gave it to the Faceless Men as payment.
 
Lactose_Intolerant

Lactose_Intolerant

Member
JerkShep said:
Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but the Faceless Men are the descendants of the slaves in Valyria, aren't they? I doubt they want to hatch a dragon's egg. It's more likely that they want to find a way to destroy them. And it seems very unlikely to me that Euron had an egg and gave it away, he probably hired a FM with something valuable obtained in his travels.
Click to expand...

That's the dragon egg
 
V

viciouskillersquirrel

Member
Forsaken82 said:
The problem with your thought process however is that while the past may seem irrelevant when it comes to the Targaryans importance, the existing timeline for the entire series so far points to their blood line being extremely important. What is "inconsequential" as you put it is the name sake as it was hundreds of years ago. There presence in the world as we are reading currently is a much bigger deal (in my opinion at least). The return of dragons is clearly going to be important when it comes to fighting the Wights. Magic has also returned in some fashion due to the return of dragons, and lets not even ignore the fact that the current "game of thrones" wouldn't even exist if Dany was actually assassinated and the dragons never hatched. Would Aegon even attempt to fight for the throne if Dany was dead? There wouldn't be much of a story without the Targaryan's presence in these books. At least that is the way I view things and why I feel that they mean more than you make them out to mean.
Click to expand...
Yes. I think so.
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
KuwabaraTheMan said:
In A Storm of Swords, the Ghost of High Heart says "I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings."

That seems to pretty clearly say that Balon was killed by a Faceless Man hired by Euron (the drowned crow). In A Feast For Crows, Euron mentions having a dragon's egg but throwing it overboard in a fit of rage because he couldn't get it to hatch. Some people have theorized that he actually gave it to the Faceless Men as payment.
Click to expand...

Whoa, thanks, I missed this.

I like this theory, at least I am certain he would not have thrown it overboard.
 
Z

ZeroRay

Member
Kill Missendei, assume her identity in order to spy on Dany for a huge multi (faceless) man hit on Dany and her dragons.

Or..

TWOW
Fake Arya (aka Jeyne Poole) is coming to Braavos. Maybe Arya's gonna have a change of heart.
 
K

KuwabaraTheMan

Banned
JerkShep said:
Euron's goal as far as we know is to conquer Westeros using dragons, like the Targaryens did in the past. I doubt he would give away one of the last dragon's egg in existence "just" to kill his old brother.
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The Faceless Men usually ask for something that holds personal value from the people who hire them, which would make sense for them taking Euron's dragon egg, as opposed to just some random plunder that held no real significance.

It was probably very hard to part with for Euron, but it wasn't exactly doing him a lot of good if he couldn't figure out how to hatch it, and getting rid of Balon was a more pressing concern. He would have already known about Dany and her dragons by this time, which is why his plan probably shifted from 'hatch a dragon' to 'steal Dany's dragons after killing my brother'. Had Euron openly killed his brother or fought against him, the Ironborn would have never followed him. He had to get rid of Balon in a way that didn't obviously point to him and then take control of the Islands from there. That left him with few choices aside from the Faceless Men.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
Lactose_Intolerant said:
Aegon is a Blackfyre and is Illirio's child. illirio's dead wife was a blackfyre. There are lots of posts about this around the internet if you google. Obviously this is just a theory like all the rest but there is evidence to back it up.

Why would Varys come to Westeros to become an adviser? Sure he has a place at court but he was already a rich man. He has no lands or real claim to anything. No allies there. Plus it is costing Illirio tons of money to keep sending kids over there. Where is the profit in this scenario without someone to take over the realm for them?

I don't know when Aegon was born (if he isn't the real Aegon) and how it compares to how long Varys has been in Westeros. I'm guessing it's pretty damn close though. I'm going to guess if he wasn't born yet Illirio was still hoping to get his wife pregnant sooner or later

Everything else makes pretty good sense though.
Click to expand...

We know Varys was Master of Whispers during the Tourney At Harrenhel, which offered about a year before Rhaegar abducted/eloped Lyanna; he also must have been in position long enough before that tourney to gain Aerys' trust.

Aegon was born in 282AL and (allegedly) died in 283AL. I guess it is possible Varys arrived shortly before Elia got pregnant.
 
V

viciouskillersquirrel

Member
Forsaken82 said:
You think so? Even if the dragons never hatched?
Click to expand...
Aegon still had friends in Westeros as well as the Golden Company. Sure, an army of Dothraki would make things easier, but they were never, strictly speaking, necessary. If the realm is destabilised enough, he might succeed.

Also, Varys and Illirio had no idea that the dragons would hatch, or even that it was possible. What they wanted was Drogo's khalasar, which was long gone before anyone got wind that dragons were somehow involved.
 
S

suzu

Member
Prophetic chosen one + magical stuff = Dany being immune to fire and all that, imo. :p

As for the gods & coin quote... That was about whether a Targaryen would be born insane. Madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin -- because they're inbred as fuck. lol

Which btw, would be interesting if Dany goes crazytown later on. haha.
 
E

Eidan

Member
Trojita said:
I thought the coin flip was just crazy or not crazy. I don't remember them mentioning greatness.
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"King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land."

From ASOS.
 
J

Jack Remington

Banned
I think this is the one thread where I can say this:

I fucking love the moment in the Season 3 trailer where Cat say "Death is coming for everyone and everything," and it immediately cuts to a shot of Robb. So good.

What sucks is that half the non-book fanbase has likely been spoiled on the Red Wedding by trolls. If it were up to me, spoiling the Red Wedding would be punishable by execution on the spot. I would literally make it a capital offense.
 
J

Jedi2016

Member
Jack Remington said:
I think this is the one thread where I can say this:

I fucking love the moment in the Season 3 trailer where Cat say "Death is coming for everyone and everything," and it immediately cuts to a shot of Robb. So good.

What sucks is that half the non-book fanbase has likely been spoiled on the Red Wedding by trolls. If it were up to me, spoiling the Red Wedding would be punishable by execution on the spot. I would literally make it a capital offense.
Click to expand...
We made a point of that at work, to not even mention the phrase "red wedding" until the person had read that chapter. Someone mentioned the phrase on another forum, in a thread specifically made to be book-spoiler-free, and caught huge flak for it when everyone who had read the book was "Hey, that's a huge fucking spoiler, dude...". The name itself is a spoiler, IMO.
 
Trojita

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
Eidan said:
"King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land."

From ASOS.
Click to expand...

Oh okay, my bad.
 
R

RyanMT

Neo Member
I love these books so much, I decided this week to read them over again, but only a chapter a day. I wonder if doing that will take me to the next book's release. I'm getting more out of it already, I had no recollection that Illyrio mentioned the Lord of Light so early in A Game of Thrones. Having background knowledge is definitely helping me pay attention to more details now.
 
T

TCRS

Banned
lol I'm doing the same thing and yeah you definitely notice the subtle hints. Like the stag and direwolf thing and how Catelyn says that it's an omen (or something).
 
M

Massa

Member
Jedi2016 said:
We made a point of that at work, to not even mention the phrase "red wedding" until the person had read that chapter. Someone mentioned the phrase on another forum, in a thread specifically made to be book-spoiler-free, and caught huge flak for it when everyone who had read the book was "Hey, that's a huge fucking spoiler, dude...". The name itself is a spoiler, IMO.
Click to expand...

Well, pointing out that the name is a spoiler is the actual spoiler. :p
 
W

Wh0 N0se

Member
RyanMT said:
I love these books so much, I decided this week to read them over again, but only a chapter a day. I wonder if doing that will take me to the next book's release. I'm getting more out of it already, I had no recollection that Illyrio mentioned the Lord of Light so early in A Game of Thrones. Having background knowledge is definitely helping me pay attention to more details now.
Click to expand...

Do you mean a chapter a day or a chapter a week? A chapter a day definitely won't take you to the next books release.
 
R

RyanMT

Neo Member
Wh0 N0se said:
Do you mean a chapter a day or a chapter a week? A chapter a day definitely won't take you to the next books release.
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Yeah I guess you're right. There are just so many chapters (though I've not counted them) throughout the five books, it should take me some time for sure. Would rather brush up again anyways, it'll be much fresher at least.
 
A

ahoyhoy

Unconfirmed Member
RyanMT said:
Yeah I guess you're right. There are just so many chapters (though I've not counted them) throughout the five books, it should take me some time for sure. Would rather brush up again anyways, it'll be much fresher at least.
Click to expand...

Be prepared to enjoy aFfC much more. As much as I thought it was an event-less bore the first time around (mainly because I was rushing through it to hit all the major plot points), you enjoy the subtle character building much more on a read through.
 
hemtae

hemtae

Member
RyanMT said:
Yeah I guess you're right. There are just so many chapters (though I've not counted them) throughout the five books, it should take me some time for sure. Would rather brush up again anyways, it'll be much fresher at least.
Click to expand...

According to the wiki, there's 344 chapters

AGoT - 73
ACoK - 70
ASoS - 82
AFfC - 46
ADwD - 73
 
T

TCRS

Banned
Interview with GRRM:

RAR: Your process when you're working with the television people... are you hands-on with it?

GRRM: Fortunately I was either very lucky or very smart to team up with David Benioff and Dan Weiss -- the showrunners and executive producers of the show who write most of the episodes -- and, you know, I have a great pair of partners there. They're doing a terrific job with the show and the show is their baby and the books are my baby. So, I'm gonna keep writing the books and keep ahead of these guys before they catch up with me.

RAR: You're known for working at a comfortable pace. You're working on a lot of projects, you take your time and you offer really dense, detailed volumes. Has the pace of the TV series actually put any pressure on you or changed your pace of writing?

GRRM: It had not initially, but it's starting to do so, yeah, because they're making faster progress than I'm making. So, I had a huge lead to begin with and I still have a pretty substantial lead over them, but it's not as substantial as it was beforehand. [Chuckles.]
Click to expand...

more:
http://www.omnivoracious.com/2013/03/valar-dohaeris-an-interview-with-george-rr-martin.html
 
R

RaidenZR

Member
It's nice to see that he's still motivated and optimistic of getting out ahead of the show, but it just seems so unlikely. Is there a running count for his manuscript so far on the upcoming book? And does anyone have comparisons for no. of manuscript pages versus no. of actual pages in regards to the previous books?
 
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