As a First Ranger he seemed to have privileges the other rangers didn't have, and seeing how the Starks have been staunch supporters of the Wall it wouldn't be strange for Mormont to decide Benjen is the best man to visit Eddard once in a while to get prisoners and stuff. And Mormont was a banner man of Stark so he might give Starks an unfair advantage.
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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
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Basileus777
Member
Keeping good relations with the Starks is probably an important duty for the Lord Commander. We know the Starks have intervened in the Watch's affairs a ton in the past. Ned doesn't do it because he's Ned, but that's still an important relationship to keep strong for the Night's Watch.
Starks consider it an honor to serve on the Wall and often go willingly there. Benjen was the youngest son so he might've thought that since he isn't inheriting, he might as well go serve honorably on the Wall.
Indeed. He probably didn't account for the incapability of the Starks to live long lives.
Well, Dragonglass is the only way to kill an Other we know of, so I'd say Dragons would come in pretty handy.
Backwards Marathon
Member
Is there anything to suggest that Illyrio knew that Dany would hatch the dragon eggs? If so why not save them for Aegon?
BertramCooper
Banned
Random question: Had the Starks defeated the Lannisters, what would have become of the Riverlands? Would they have become part of Robb's kingdom of the North, or would they have become an independent kingdom?
Obviously they were allies with the Starks, but did the Tullys ever pledge fealty to Robb? I can't remember.
Obviously they were allies with the Starks, but did the Tullys ever pledge fealty to Robb? I can't remember.
They would have likely joined the North, especially considering Cat's the mother of the King and he was engaged to a daughter of Frey.
Basileus777
Member
Everything indicates that he had no clue she would hatch the dragons. His conversation with Tyrion suggests he didn't think much of her other than as a tool to marry off.
The Riverlords bent the knee to Robb in the "King of the North" scene. Robb was declared King of the North and the Trident, they would have remained part of Robb's kingdom as vassals of the Tullys.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
The Riverlords declared Robb King of The North and The Trident.
Edit: Basileus777 with the Ninja Edit.
BertramCooper
Banned
Got it. Thanks for the clarification.
Even if they had won, I can't imagine that the Starks would have been able to hold on to the Riverlands for very long. It's far too vulnerable. There's no natural buffer like the Neck between it and the South.
Backwards Marathon
Member
He must have kicked himself when he learned he gave away three dragons.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Maybe, We could be reading too much into it but why wouldn't GRRM reply with that? I don't think it's anything too important to the plot as to why he joint though.
He wouldn't have been able to hatch the eggs anyway plus wouldn't have even thought of it, although he may have already tried before Dany received them.
I think he's pretty happy at how it worked out with Dany though, now he's got (Maybe) two Targaryen's who owe him once/if they come to power.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I would have bought that if the decision was made when their father was alive, but not after the war. At the time there were only two Stark males of adult age, Ned and Benjen. Given that it seems odd that Benjen would decide to join the Night's Watch out of pure honor; he could have easily secured a good marriage alliance and had children of his own to strengthen the family.
With that in mind I'm more inclined to believe he joined the NW out of some shame or grief. If Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree than it would explain things: Benjen felt he caused her death by igniting the chain of events that led to Rhaegar giving her the flowers.
Wasn't exactly sure on when it happened on the timeline but this also came into my head, why would he join with only Ned there, makes no sense unless he felt some sort of shame or guilt because he seemed to have a decent relationship with Ned so that kinda rules out him upsetting Ned in some way.
Didn't someone comment that Benjen may have liked Ashara Dayne and may have joint because of some sort of incident with her? I can't really remember though.
It's possible that this is part of the reason, but something else must also be in play or else GRRM wouldn't refuse to answer the question. Unless he's just messing with us.
I wish I could find exactly what he said. All I remember is that he avoided answering the question.
The whole Illyrio/Varys conspiracy stinks of a giant plot hole to me that GRRM will probably largely ignore. Specifically, I don't think we'll ever get a clear answer as to what exactly they intended Viserys/Dany to do with the Dothraki or how it relates with the Aegon/Golden Company invasion.
That's the first time I'm hearing of that theory. Interesting. But what does Laughing Tree = Lyanna have to do with Rhaegar giving her the flowers and kidnapping her? How did that trigger the kidnapping?
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
He didn't know.
Perhaps he became infatuated with her upon realizing that she was the Mystery Knight, and quickly decided that she would be the "Ice" to his "Fire" through which they would forge Azor Azhai.
Starting from the beginning of aSoS, wherein Stannis is depleted and the alliance between Lannisters and Tyrells is at its strongest, most likely the Riverlands would have been a fierce battleground through most of the winter, with Robb likely losing significant ground upon having to retreat in order to retake the north.
Even if he had swept the ironmen out of Moat Caitlin and Deepwood Mote, likely his retaking of the Riverlands would have to wait until Spring, in which case he'd probably need to start again from Riverrun or perhaps even The Twins.
Yeah, I think something similar to this happened. I think Rhaegar simply fell in love with Lyanna, or believed she would be well suited to produce a child for him as Elia would no longer be able to. I'm also 99% sure Lyanna went voluntarily.
I agree with this, I doubt it will ever be brought up unless its asked by a reader to GRRM
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
I think the end game was always Aegon.
Both Varys and Illirio wanted to set up a stable kingdom somewhere under a just ruler because of some ideological dream they both share combined with the kind of megalomania you only get from having risen as far as you can go. They couldn't have set anything like that up in the Free Cities because those places were too disjointed, both culturally and politically and a ruler's hard power only extends as far the city limits, and even then, rival power centres (priesthoods, guilds etc) divide your authority further still.
Contrast this with Westeros, where, despite the divisions, rulers have some measure of control over their vast lands. The Targaryens ruled a kingdom big enough to engulf not only all the territory of the Free Cities and Disputed Lands but Andalos to boot. One king, one set of laws, one language and one culture. If you were aiming to maximise your impact on history, Westeros is where you'd do it.
They hear that the king of Westeros is insane but that his son is well-liked and they smell an opportunity to make their dream come true. So they came up with a plan.
1) Get in good with the Royal family
2) Fill the heir's head with dreams of destiny, just rule and utopia, making yourself his most invaluable advisor, friend and greatest champion. At the same time, make the king himself the most hated man in the realm.
3) Engineer the king's death
4) Profit!
The only problem with the plan was that it almost worked too well. Rhaegar let the prophecies get to his head, yes, but he also convinced himself that getting some Northern poontang was the only way to fulfil his destiny. Had he never done that,Robert wouldn't have hated him and his rebellion would never have been against the Targaryens in general, but Aerys in particular and in fact Robert and the rest of the high lords might have accepted Rhaegar on the throne instead.
Basically, Lyanna ruined everything.
Trying to pick up the pieces of the plan, Varys and Illirio set their sights on the next generation of Targaryens. They know that Baratheon hegemony is unstable, so baby Aegon is their horse. The new plan:
1) Make Aegon into the second coming of Rhaegar
2) Bide time until he comes of age
3) Destabilise the realm by killing Robert. Cause chaos.
4) Raise an army to invade with Aegon at the head
5) Invade and take over. Join the new regime as their most trusted advisors.
6) Profit!
Where Dany and Viserys came in was in step 4. The sub-plan was:
4.A) Make a deal with Khal Drogo to invade Westeros in exchange for a Targaryen bride
4.B) Send some assassin out to kill Dany and any of her children. Make sure the assassin is Westerosi and that it's absolutely clear that King Robert is behind it.
4.C) Vomiting with rage, Khal Drogo will drop everything to rush to Pentos, to Illirio and Viserys, 40,000 Dothraki screamers at his back.
4.D) He will arrive to find Viserys mysteriously missing and/or dead. That doesn't matter though, since Dany's long-lost nephew is here. AND he conveniently has ships.
4.E) Invasion happens. Khal Drogo gets his revenge on Robert (and a lot of booty). Having no interest in actually ruling Westeros and having no heir to give it to, Khal Drogo goes home with lots of treasure, his nephew on the throne.
Varys and Illirio thought they could pull it off. They, after all, just came off the big leagues of political intrigue in the Free Cities and probably thought that their Westerosi equivalents were novices by comparison.
Thing is, they can't plan for or control everything. The dragons, for one, or Viserys going with Drogo to the Dothraki sea, Robert's impetuousness in wanting Dany dead, or Khal Drogo dying from an infected nipple scratch and his army fracturing / dissipating thereafter.
Chances are, after Drogo died, they just wrote off that part of the plan. Dany starts taking over Slaver cities and suddenly she becomes useful again. Maybe they can co-opt those dragons by marrying her off to Aegon. It would certainly lend him some extra legitimacy, which can't hurt.
Point is, even if that doesn't work, Dany is not a critical part of the plan. The main thing is to destabilise Westeros and get it ready for invasion by Aegon and the Golden Company.
But they expected the Lannisters to be killed and were negotiating with both Baratheon brothers. They would keep the Riverlands because there would be peace between that kingdom and the actual kingdom. Renly and Stannis wouldn't have liked it, but would they try to recoup it after a war that decimated the country? If everything went alright and they conquered the Lannisters, the Lannister line would be dead, Vale would be still on the side line, same as Dorne meaning the Baratheon king wouldn't have a real advantage. They would each really 'control' two out of seven kingdoms with three of them not participating anymore. (If Lysa doesn't join her sister's son)
If so, then there really wouldn't be a point for a Reed to be telling the story to a Stark. Howland got roughed around and then he stood up for himself the next day. The context of the story being told is the Reeds owing fealty to the Starks for a reason, which is why Jojen and Meera are helping Bran, because a Stark stood up for their father way back then.
My bet is on Lyanna.
PhoenixDark
Banned
The Laughing Tree knight fled the Harhenhel tourney after ransoming the armor/weapons of the three knights he/she defeated. King Aerys thought the knight might be an assassin or enemy and sent Rhaegar to find him/her.
It's possible Rhaegar found the Knight and unmasked him/her, revealing it to be Lyanna; Meera Reed assumed Bran had heard the story countless times from Ned, but was surprised when Bran admitted he had never heard it. It certainly makes sense that Ned wouldn't tell such a story to his children (especially to Arya) because it would make him sad.
You know, the Knight of the Laughing Tree theories are all really cool, but since this was predicated on a discussion of Benjen, I'm confused as to why that started. Benjen literally had nothing to do with this.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Benjen helped defend Howland Reed from the three squires, alongside Lyanna, and later helped her tend to Howland's wounds. He also offered to get Howland armor and a horse so he could defend his own honor, but Howland refused out of fear. The theory suggests Lyanna got the armor and horse from Benjen. If that's the case he would certainly feel a lot of guilt about what happened.
Benjen was privy to what Lyanna did as the Knight of the Laughing Tree and possibly assisted her. He joined the Night's Watch after Robert's Rebellion, clearly based on his guilt due to how it all turned out.
edit: ^ beaten.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
I thought the whole point of it was that Jojen and his sister were greatly hospitable to Howland Reed. Lyanna had already protected him from The Squires. They made a big point of them offering him a place to stay and a spot at their table.
Even if Lyanna was the Laughing Tree Knight, it had no result in something that would cause Benjen to seek forgiveness. Unless you think Rhaeger chose Lyanna partly because of her performance as the Laughing Tree Knight.
I think, if that was the point, the story would've ended there, or they wouldn't have bothered with the anonymity. Howland got abused, protected by Lyanna, and gained the confidence to stand up for himself from the Stark's compassion. The story still works, but it loses a bit of the "Reeds owe Starks a favor" factor and I think Howland would tell his children that he was the Knight.
According to the above posters, Benjen offered Howland armor, but Howland was too shy and turned it down. Benjen instead gave it to Lyanna. When Aerys instructed Rhaegar to find the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Lyanna was de-masked, and they fell for each other. Then the Rebellion. Thus, Benjen felt guilty about helping facilitate the situation and her death.
PhoenixDark
Banned
It's quite an interesting story, and one of the many reasons why the Harenhel tourney is one of the most interesting/eventful moments in the series; can't wait until we learn the truth.
Lyanna and Benjen are the only two people mentioned who saw what happened to Howland and intervened, so they're the only main candidates imo. The knight's small height also limits the candidates to either a woman (Lyanna) or a kid (Benjen). That is, unless the knight was Howland himself which seems very unlikely. Aren't cranogman bad with horses?
The only other candidate I've seen discussed is Ashara Dayne (she's always described as having laughing eyes, which may play on the Laughing Tree sigil). Perhaps it was her way to impress Ned. I seriously doubt it was her.
Lyanna and Benjen are the only two people mentioned who saw what happened to Howland and intervened, so they're the only main candidates imo. The knight's small height also limits the candidates to either a woman (Lyanna) or a kid (Benjen). That is, unless the knight was Howland himself which seems very unlikely. Aren't cranogman bad with horses?
The only other candidate I've seen discussed is Ashara Dayne (she's always described as having laughing eyes, which may play on the Laughing Tree sigil). Perhaps it was her way to impress Ned. I seriously doubt it was her.
For example, Barristan Selmy is eternally guilty because he lost to Rhaegar in the tourney, allowing him to crown Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty and setting off the eventual developments of Robert's Rebellion. It doesn't mean that Barristan is actually responsible, but that's not how guilt works. It's about being haunted by the thought that, if only he had done things differently, none of these horrible things would have happened.
Benjen Stark took certain actions, and his father, brother, and sister were all killed along with the whole kingdom being put into turmoil. Even if he did essentially nothing significant at the time, I'm sure he felt that if he had taken different actions all of that horror could have been avoided.
wtf are you crazy? get out of this thread.
PhoenixDark
Banned
But we already know the plan was for Viserys to bring 40k Dothraki riders and join with Aegon (plus the Golden Company). It seems like Dany was little more than a pawn in all of this. I really like viciouskillersquirrel's idea about her being killed to enrage Drogo and convince him to come to Westeros for revenge. Perhaps Varys called off the assassination because he hadn't had enough time to set the stage in King's Landing.
But perhaps it's more likely that Aegon, Dany, and Viserys were to be the three heads
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
I don't know that Varys or Illirio buy into prophesies. I can see them exploiting them for propaganda purposes, but they don't strike me as true believers like Rhaegar.
Only if you like torturing yourself knowing it's the only fix you'll get until next december.
Basileus777
Member
What's happening next December?
BertramCooper
Banned
Christ, I love his website. It's hysterical.
Is it new or is it one of the ones he read a few weeks ago?
GRRM confirmed an early release of TWOW in 2013!?!?!?
I have no faith in any date prior to december 2014. I finally understood why the fans were so pessimistic about GRRMs release estimates after I read the AFFC ending comments which mentioned that ADWD should release within a year of AFFC
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