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[Trojita]

These assholes at work (My coworker friends but still assholes for doing this) knew I was reading the book and were talking about the series and then made an off the cuff remark about Aegon and how he was still alive. I think I was on AGoT or ACoK at the time. They said "Oh its not a big deal and was kind of hinted about earlier".

I got to that part in the book, and bullshit it was.

 

[UraMallas]

I didn't get it at all. Seemed obvious as hell on reread.

I missed Renly/Loras also.

But I think Jaquen/Pate is as plain as day (same with Varys/Illirio), to the point that I didn't think they were meant to be surprising at all.

This is about exactly how I was. I missed your first two and got the second two right off. Maybe it's just about the way people's minds are wired - we pick up different things.

 

[Geido]

I missed absolutely everything the first time around. Most of it I only heard through the internet. R+L=J, Renly being gay, Blackfish being gay, Jaqen/Pate... And it seems so obvious after you've heard it.

And about R+L=J, while reading ADWD I kinda thought the theory was disproven. That lord from the Sisters told Davos he knocked up some fisherman's daughter right?

 

[Emerson]

And about R+L=J, while reading ADWD I kinda thought the theory was disproven. That lord from the Sisters told Davos he knocked up some fisherman's daughter right?

There's no reason to give that explanation any more credence than the dozen other stories we've heard.

 

[tmdorsey]

If you jumped from Season 1 of the TV show to the first book you plow through alot of chapters and I totally missed R+L=J until I read it online.

This is what happened to me. I totally missed it and I'm still mad at myself for not figuring it out.

 

[blainethemono]

It's very clear due to two early hints: Jorah's opinion of Rhaegar and "Promise me, Ned."

When Dany saves the women from being further raped/assaulted by the Dothraki in AGOT, Jorah's comment that she reminds him of Rhaegar is a very obvious hint to the character of this man whom we've been told, from Robert's point of view, is a rapist and scoundrel (Robert being an epically unreliable source of information). There is no reason to see Jorah's comment as anything but accurate, so the conclusion you have to draw is that Lyanna was with Rhaegar because she loved him.

Then there's "Promise me, Ned," which couldn't be a clearer way of saying Jon is Lyanna's son. Oh it just so happens that Ned brought home a baby under mysterious circumstances when he came home from the war, and it just so happens that his dead sister had him swear to secrecy about something, and he is constantly reminded about this and feels guilt around Robert.

I will admit that I wasn't 100% certain of it until the Reeds tell the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree in ASOS, but up to that point I was already 95% sure.

Also the fact that 3 kingsguard stayed at the tower of joy instead of trying to get to Viserys and Daenerys

Unless the vow they refer to in that scene was referring to a command by Rhaegar to stay with her. But I always thought they were there because Jon was the legit heir and had to be protected going by their kingsguard vows

 

[hemtae]

Also the fact that 3 kingsguard stayed at the tower of joy instead of trying to get to Viserys and Daenerys

Unless the vow they refer to in that scene was referring to a command by Rhaegar to stay with her. But I always thought they were there because Jon was the legit heir and had to be protected going by their kingsguard vows

Aegon would have been higher than Jon in the line of succession.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Also the fact that 3 kingsguard stayed at the tower of joy instead of trying to get to Viserys and Daenerys

Unless the vow they refer to in that scene was referring to a command by Rhaegar to stay with her. But I always thought they were there because Jon was the legit heir and had to be protected going by their kingsguard vows

Well, in one of Barristan's chapters in Dance, he mentions that Kingsguard protection can be extended to just about anyone, including mistresses and bastards, and that once it has been, it can't be revoked. So, I don't think the Kingsguard being there necessarily mean that Jon was the heir. If they had been ordered to protect Lyanna, nothing (including the deaths of Aerys and Rhaegar) could have revoked that.

 

[CrunchyB]

Aegon would have been higher than Jon in the line of succession.

And he was presumed safe in King's Landing, protected by Jaime Lannister. The rest of the King's Guard was fighting Robert's army. The fall of King's Landing was unexpectedly quick, they couldn't have gotten there in time, after the battle at the Trident.

Once the news came out, they knew the unborn child would become the rightful king.

Rhaegar might have left very specific and clear orders. You'd think a single member of the King's Guard would have sufficed, but he left 3, including the commander and Arthur Dayne.

 

[Apath]

I missed absolutely everything the first time around. Most of it I only heard through the internet. R+L=J, Renly being gay, Blackfish being gay, Jaqen/Pate... And it seems so obvious after you've heard it.

And about R+L=J, while reading ADWD I kinda thought the theory was disproven. That lord from the Sisters told Davos he knocked up some fisherman's daughter right?

Wait what?

Well, in one of Barristan's chapters in Dance, he mentions that Kingsguard protection can be extended to just about anyone, including mistresses and bastards, and that once it has been, it can't be revoked. So, I don't think the Kingsguard being there necessarily mean that Jon was the heir. If they had been ordered to protect Lyanna, nothing (including the deaths of Aerys and Rhaegar) could have revoked that.

But why protect Lyanna from Ned? I never understood the Tower of Joy battle because of that.

 

[daripad]

Wait what?

He didn't want to get marry, that is why he fought a lot with Hoster. If he didn't want to marry, people just assumed he is gay

 

[Apath]

He didn't want to get marry, that is why he fought a lot with Hoster. If he didn't want to marry, people just assumed he is gay

....that's all we have to go off of? Maybe he's just a rebel without a cause.

 

[Dysun]

It's a theory since he wont take a wife and Hoster feuded with him over it to the point of banishment

 

[FootballFan]

Wait what?

But why protect Lyanna from Ned? I never understood the Tower of Joy battle because of that.

They were not protecting Lyanna from Ned. They were protecting the baby, they did not know whether Ned would kill the child or let it live. Ned was part of the rebellion against the Targaryens and so would of risked his own life and those of the Starks, if Robert found out that Ned let a Targaryen heir live and in turn threaten Roberts claim to the throne. Ned, having found a dying Lyanna with a baby, decided to do the right thing and not harm the baby. The Kingsguard were most probably ordered to protect the mother and child with their lives. And they did.

I hope that makes a bit of sense.

 

[Drkirby]

Wouldn't any surprise Targaryens not be eligible to the throne, on account of being unlegitimized Bastards? Unless someone sneaks Tommen a decree legitimizing them (Though who would want to ether?).

 

[Dysun]

Well there's that mystery letter that Robb sent to the Crannogmen about his heir that's probably Jon

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Well there's that mystery letter that Robb sent to the Crannogmen about his heir that's probably Jon

I don't think Robb sent a copy of that there. He sent Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover with fake written orders in case they were captured, and real orders that were only communicated verbally. There's no mention of them having copies of his decree (although they would have at least known the contents of it).

 

[Drkirby]

It was a Mormont who was sent with the Decree?

Well, looking into it, it seems to be implyed in Dance that she is still alive, so I would assume the group made it to Deepword. So, Howland Reed should know about it, though no clue how it will play out with the mess at the Wall.

 

[PhoenixDark]

And he was presumed safe in King's Landing, protected by Jaime Lannister. The rest of the King's Guard was fighting Robert's army. The fall of King's Landing was unexpectedly quick, they couldn't have gotten there in time, after the battle at the Trident.

Once the news came out, they knew the unborn child would become the rightful king.

Rhaegar might have left very specific and clear orders. You'd think a single member of the King's Guard would have sufficed, but he left 3, including the commander and Arthur Dayne.

Considering the 3 Kingsguard members knew Aegon had been murdered I think we can assume they knew baby Aegon and his sister were dead too. We don't know whether Rhaegar married Lyanna though, or whether Jon was a bastard. It's possible Viserys was the heir.

Ultimately I don't think it matters. The Targs lost the throne, they hold no legal claim. Stannis is the rightful king yo. Although I guess if you look at the incest thing as a peaceful coup...technically Tommen would be the rightful king. He controls the throne, has the army, etc.

#TeamStannis

 

[Apath]

They were not protecting Lyanna from Ned. They were protecting the baby, they did not know whether Ned would kill the child or let it live. Ned was part of the rebellion against the Targaryens and so would of risked his own life and those of the Starks, if Robert found out that Ned let a Targaryen heir live and in turn threaten Roberts claim to the throne. Ned, having found a dying Lyanna with a baby, decided to do the right thing and not harm the baby. The Kingsguard were most probably ordered to protect the mother and child with their lives. And they did.

I hope that makes a bit of sense.

Yeah that does. I guess the Kingsguard couldn't know how Ned would react, and would essentially be putting their prince in the hands of the enemy.

Considering the 3 Kingsguard members knew Aegon had been murdered I think we can assume they knew baby Aegon and his sister were dead too. We don't know whether Rhaegar married Lyanna though, or whether Jon was a bastard. It's possible Viserys was the heir.

Ultimately I don't think it matters. The Targs lost the throne, they hold no legal claim. Stannis is the rightful king yo. Although I guess if you look at the incest thing as a peaceful coup...technically Tommen would be the rightful king. He controls the throne, has the army, etc.

#TeamStannis

Stannis is the man.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

He didn't want to get marry, that is why he fought a lot with Hoster. If he didn't want to marry, people just assumed he is gay

I always thought he was in love with his sister-in-law. There really isn't anything to support any theory though. Dude just didn't want to get married.

 

[CorvoSol]

Rickon's already dead, the cannibals have had their fill of him.


But seriously, I don't see Bran having a happy end. If he survives, it will be in some sort of terrible state.

It was never going to be happy for Bran. This is what happens when you name a child after crows. He gets pushed out a window, his spine busted, nearly assassinated, parents and sibling dead, home burned down and mentor dead, forced to flee into the wilderness and assimilate with a tree. Bran is never going to have a happy ending.

Frankly though, I think Westeros should be fully ripe for the wrath of the Starks in due time. Consider: Robb lost his father, but was also made king and began to wreak havoc across the realm, complicating an already complicated war. Arya Stark is becoming an assassin, and, try as she might, she still has a nasty grudge against a long list of VIPs. More to the point, though, Sansa Stark is now in the tutelage of Peter Baelish, who is, along with Varys, one of the most dangerous men in Westeros, whether people realize it or not. Bran has just gained the capacity to see half of Westeros instantaneously through the Weirwoods, and Rickon is hardly human anymore. If Robb was a sign of things to come, then Arya, Sansa, and Rickon are going to make some serious trouble before the end.

Although I still want it to be Dany coming and burning her way to victory.

 

[Violater]

So people are ok with Arya dying and Stannis becoming King?
At some point GRRM's trolling will have to give way to sanity.

A question that has always bothered me, how in the world did Jaqen get captured?

 

[LuchaShaq]

Although I still want it to be Dany coming and burning her way to victory.

Like father like daughter.

Hope Jorah or Selmy kills her when they realize how batshit insane and dumb she is.

 

[Tenrius]

So people are ok with Arya dying and Stannis becoming King?
At some point GRRM's trolling will have to give way to sanity.

A question that has always bothered me, how in the world did Jaqen get captured?

Is that surprising? I never even liked Arya, she's kinda annoying.

As for Stannis, Stannis himself is ok, but I think he has very slight chances of retaining whatever power he has or surviving at all.

 

[Diablos54]

Bran has just gained the capacity to see half of Westeros instantaneously through the Weirwoods, and Rickon is hardly human anymore. If Robb was a sign of things to come, then Arya, Sansa, and Rickon are going to make some serious trouble before the end.

What? When did this happen?

 

[LuchaShaq]

What? When did this happen?

It didn't people are just making wild assumptions about what he has been doing in Skagos.

 

[endlessflood]

Rickon is hardly human anymore.

It would be ironic if Rickon were to eventually supplant Ramsay as the series' most twisted and evil character.

 

[daripad]

Rickon was going "wild" according to Bran in GOT

 

[FootballFan]

Rickon sounds awesome. Hopefully he can dish out some punishment through Shaggydog, by ripping Ramsey Bolton to shreds.

Is it not ridiculous that Dany gave life to her dragons at the end of the first book. Yet she still remains in Essos after all this time.

Dany and her dragons are part of the end game to the story I believe. GRRM is forced to keep them away from Westeros, due to the fact that their presence there, would make the events that are going on in Westeros seem inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. If she can keep hold of all three of her dragons and make it to Westeros with an army of the Unsullied plus a few Targaryen loyalists, it is game over. Even 'The Others' would not be able to halt her except may be a Dragon Horn.

As a character in the books she went from one of my favourites to one of the least liked. Hopefully her story picks up in the next book.It's not that I hate her story in Essos it just feels like she is doing things which may not be necessary for her quest to the throne that really is not hers anyway.

My favourite moments in the books that involved Daenerys were: The pyre and the Dragons, House of the undying, 'Dracarys', everything where Drogo was involved. That is about it, that is not a lot. If by some insanity she is still in Essos by the end of The Winds of Winter, then may her own Dragons devour Daenerys Stormborn.

 

[John Dunbar]

Dany and her dragons are part of the end game to the story I believe. GRRM is forced to keep them away from Westeros, due to the fact that their presence there, would make the events that are going on in Westeros seem inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. If she can keep hold of all three of her dragons and make it to Westeros with an army of the Unsullied plus a few Targaryen loyalists, it is game over. Even 'The Others' would not be able to halt her except may be a Dragon Horn.

Or maybe it's just that her reaching Westeros while her dragons are babies would have made her an easy target. It already beggars belief that no one, say in Qarth, has stolen her dragons. Only one incompetent assassination attempt against her? Please. There's no logical reason for her managing to leave Qarth alive with the dragons.

Also, I get the feeling that the dragons will not be the be-all-end-all of warfare. The surprise element Aegon had is no longer there, and there's been 300 years to come up with tactics against them. I doubt the lords of Westeros are going to throw a huge host against them on an open field again. Not to even mention it's very unlikely Dany's dragons are going to be anywhere close to being as large as Aegon's when she finally does arrive, so it's possible they will be more useful for terror than actual conquering.

I also have to wonder how useful the dragons are going to be against the Others in wintry conditions. I can't see Drogon and the pair being too keen on fighting in a blizzard.

 

[LuchaShaq]

Or maybe it's just that her reaching Westeros while her dragons are babies would have made her an easy target. It already beggars belief that no one, say in Qarth, has stolen her dragons. Only one incompetent assassination attempt against her? Please. There's no logical reason for her managing to leave Qarth alive with the dragons.

Also, I get the feeling that the dragons will not be the be-all-end-all of warfare. The surprise element Aegon had is no longer there, and there's been 300 years to come up with tactics against them. I doubt the lords of Westeros are going to throw a huge host against them on an open field again. Not to even mention it's very unlikely Dany's dragons are going to be anywhere close to being as large as Aegon's when she finally does arrive, so it's possible they will be more useful for terror than actual conquering.

I also have to wonder how useful the dragons are going to be against the Others in wintry conditions. I can't see Drogon and the pair being too keen on fighting in a blizzard.

You're missing the most important part.

Dany has been too incompetent to train her dragons to do anything beyond one fucking command.

 

[ZeroRay]

Why does everyone think the Others will be so easily defeated by Dany and her dragons? It's usually that and her teaming up/marrying Jon.

Those kinds of theories basically sound the same as the TV viewers we make fun of that predict Robb and Dany to team up, take out the Lannisters and then fight the White Walkers. I'm sure GRRM's got something better/less cliche cooked up.

 

[Basileus777]

There are supposed to be 2 books left, there's no time for a lengthy war with the Others.

 

[Wanace]

If Robert Strong is Gregor Clegane, whose head was in the box?

 

[tmdorsey]

You're missing the most important part.

Dany has been too incompetent to train her dragons to do anything beyond one fucking command.

Well I think that's where Tyrion eventually comes in.

 

[tmdorsey]

If Robert Strong is Gregor Clegane, whose head was in the box?

Penny's brother.

 

[FootballFan]

Or maybe it's just that her reaching Westeros while her dragons are babies would have made her an easy target. It already beggars belief that no one, say in Qarth, has stolen her dragons. Only one incompetent assassination attempt against her? Please. There's no logical reason for her managing to leave Qarth alive with the dragons.

I agree, she obviously could not ,should not and as is evident did not immediately go to Westeros after the Pyre and that is not what I was trying to convey. If I remember correctly, she is already riding Drogon, so he must be quite large and powerful by the end of ADWD. As for Viserion and Rhaegal, even though they are smaller, they too are powerful, as a certain Martell found out.

Against 'The Others' her dragons would be able to take care of them up to probably the gift. But beyond the wall is a tad unlikely, as the cold would be too much but we do not know their limits and whether the cold has any impact on them. And if they can not fly and fight beyond the Wall, than this is probably where the Nights Watch will have the responsibility of fighting against the Others with Dragonglass anyway.

But against the Westerosi lords and Maesters, it could very well be a different proposition for the Dragons. And if some theories are correct, there is book somewhere with instructions on how to kill dragons. I wonder who is in possession of this book.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

So people are ok with Arya dying and Stannis becoming King?
At some point GRRM's trolling will have to give way to sanity.

A question that has always bothered me, how in the world did Jaqen get captured?

Because he's Syrio!

Spoiler

Not really.

Why does everyone think the Others will be so easily defeated by Dany and her dragons? It's usually that and her teaming up/marrying Jon.

Those kinds of theories basically sound the same as the TV viewers we make fun of that predict Robb and Dany to team up, take out the Lannisters and then fight the White Walkers. I'm sure GRRM's got something better/less cliche cooked up.

For real, those are two things I hope never happen. Dragons tearing up the Others just seems like a complete and lazy waste of the Others. Jon marrying Dany is even more worrying. Wouldn't even make any sense really, Jon is not asshole enough for Dany.

 

[iirate]

Why does everyone think the Others will be so easily defeated by Dany and her dragons? It's usually that and her teaming up/marrying Jon.

Those kinds of theories basically sound the same as the TV viewers we make fun of that predict Robb and Dany to team up, take out the Lannisters and then fight the White Walkers. I'm sure GRRM's got something better/less cliche cooked up.

Personally, I've imagined the Others being defeated and Dany/Jon/Tyrion(the three heads) essentially tearing each other apart over Westeros. There's simply no way Aegon is anything other than a fake.

 

[Wh0 N0se]

Personally, I've imagined the Others being defeated and Dany/Jon/Tyrion(the three heads) essentially tearing each other apart over Westeros. There's simply no way Aegon is anything other than a fake.

That'd be cool but I don't really see it happening, Tyrion and Jon got on kind of well and you'd assume that Tyrion will HAVE to get on with Dany otherwise he'll never make it back to Westeros.

On a side note, what did everyone think of the shows season opener? I was disappointed that they changed the Mance playing his music and Jon saying about where he was sat at the Feast at Winterfell.
Also, they kept in the Tywin quote where he says that he can't prove Tyrion is not his son.

Spoiler

Tyrion is a Targ Confirmed!!!!!!

Spoiler

Not Really

 

[TestOfTide]

....that's all we have to go off of? Maybe he's just a rebel without a cause.

We can't know for sure unless we get the blackfish referring to someone as his "silver prince".

 

[Trojita]

I could imagine George R.R. Martin trolling his fans and having Jon marry one of his "sisters". If Jon is Lyanna's child, than they would be his cousins. Jon marrying Arya or Sansa, squick indeed. It's funny in their world this wouldn't be unheard of and less squickish than what the Targaryens or Cersei and Jaime did.

 

[Pein]

That'd be cool but I don't really see it happening, Tyrion and Jon got on kind of well and you'd assume that Tyrion will HAVE to get on with Dany otherwise he'll never make it back to Westeros.

On a side note, what did everyone think of the shows season opener? I was disappointed that they changed the Mance playing his music and Jon saying about where he was sat at the Feast at Winterfell.
Also, they kept in the Tywin quote where he says that he can't prove Tyrion is not his son.

Spoiler

Tyrion is a Targ Confirmed!!!!!!

Spoiler

Not Really

agreed about mance and the jon snow quote.

 

[phaze]

Ultimately I don't think it matters. The Targs lost the throne, they hold no legal claim. Stannis is the rightful king yo. Although I guess if you look at the incest thing as a peaceful coup...technically Tommen would be the rightful king. He controls the throne, has the army, etc.

#TeamStannis

Is Stannis the rightful king though ? His only claim to Iron Throne is that of being Robert's brother. And Robert, small dose of Targaryen blood notwithstanding, was only a pretender. His rebellion was understandable but that doesn't change the fact that he was not the rightful king. If Stannis was as lawful man as he claims to be, he would either bow a knee to Daenerys or lay claim only to Stormlands.

 

[Moff]

Is Stannis the rightful king though ? His only claim to Iron Throne is that of being Robert's brother. And Robert, small dose of Targaryen blood notwithstanding, was only a pretender. His rebellion was understandable but that doesn't change the fact that he was not the rightful king. If Stannis was as lawful man as he claims to be, he would either bow a knee to Daenerys or lay claim only to Stormlands.

robert was rightful king
legitimacy through conquest

just like aegon tagaryen

so stannis is the rightful king and doesnt need to and wont bend the knee to anyone

 

[Pein]

Is Stannis the rightful king though ? His only claim to Iron Throne is that of being Robert's brother. And Robert, small dose of Targaryen blood notwithstanding, was only a pretender. His rebellion was understandable but that doesn't change the fact that he was not the rightful king. If Stannis was as lawful man as he claims to be, he would either bow a knee to Daenerys or lay claim only to Stormlands.

How was Robert a pretender? If Daenerys comes around I'd think he'd give up the throne, not much he could do against full grown dragons. Unless mellisandre gives him a couple of his own.

 

[Trojita]

Is Stannis the rightful king though ? His only claim to Iron Throne is that of being Robert's brother. And Robert, small dose of Targaryen blood notwithstanding, was only a pretender. His rebellion was understandable but that doesn't change the fact that he was not the rightful king. If Stannis was as lawful man as he claims to be, he would either bow a knee to Daenerys or lay claim only to Stormlands.

The second you sit upon the throne and everyone believes you to be King something magical happens and your blood becomes kingly.

But seriously that's how it seems to work in the books. Robert's Bastard apparently had some King blood in him. Same with Mance and his child. Unless Melisandre is completely full of shit.

 

[phaze]

robert was rightful king
legitimacy through conquest

just like aegon tagaryen

so stannis is the rightful king and doesnt need to and wont bend the knee to anyone

Wouldn't legitimacy through conquest make everybody a valid claimant ?

Targaryens created unified 7 Kingdoms through conquest, yes. Now you either accept that and support the last member of dynasty or go back to state of things before conquest; 7 independent kingdoms in which case Stannis is only the rightful (kind of) ruler of Stormlands.

How was Robert a pretender? If Daenerys comes around I'd think he'd give up the throne, not much he could do against full grown dragons. Unless mellisandre gives him a couple of his own.

Aegon, against whom Robert rebelled was the rightful king. Given the circumstances his rebellion was understandable but that doesn't make him a legitimate king.

If Stannis was the saint he sees himself as, he wouldn't support his brothers rebellion.

 

[Basileus777]

Wouldn't legitimacy through conquest make everybody a valid claimant ?

Legitimacy is just a matter of perception. No one has some divine right to rule. Even in our medieval history, dynasties were cast out for "less legitimate" alternatives.