-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
- Thread starter Pollux
- Start date
- Status
Aw man, I'm in the UK so I'll have to remember that it's before it's shown over here, definitely gonna have my eye on that thread!!!
Just read the chapter with Ned and Varys in the dungeon, that's a good chapter, a bit like the one with Ned and Cersei where it's a pretty honest discussion (I know it's never fully honest whenever Varys is involved).
Just read the chapter with Ned and Varys in the dungeon, that's a good chapter, a bit like the one with Ned and Cersei where it's a pretty honest discussion (I know it's never fully honest whenever Varys is involved).
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
I wonder if Ned ever actually wrote that letter he wanted Varys to get out.
I doubt it, it was pitch black down there. Surely by now it would've come to light if he'd written anything.
His writing has gotten progressively worse. He had enough ideas for 3 books (the series was originally a trilogy) and he's now stretched thin. Its one of the reasons he doesn't spend much time on the series, his passion is Wild Cards and script writing.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
Unless Varys is sitting on it, but yeah I don't think it was ever written.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The RW will probably already be spoiled for that thread by some book reader that wants to look prophetic going in and "predicting" it.
Maybe, I liked how honest he was when he said that if Ned did write something he'd read it and then decide what he was going to do with it depending on how it helped him or not. Pretty funny.
aronnov reborn
Banned
I think when the Red W hits this season i'll be just as bitter as when i read it.. that pissed me off more then ned.. i was just getting over ned and believing in everything robb stood for.. then i get trolled hard.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Somewhat off-topic, but talks of GRRM's writing pace made me post this Joe Abercrombie writing pie chart xD
lol @ moaning at partner
lol @ moaning at partner
You know, it just dawned on me the fact that Littlefinger is in charge of the Riverlands, not the Frey's. Which makes the fact the he never plans to sit in Harrenhal more telling of how high his goals are.
He is also effectively the Lord of the Vale (Technically Regent), and plans to have Sansa in various ways make claims to the North (Though Birth), the Vale (Though marriage to Harrold), and to Casterty Rock (Though marriage and 'widowship' to Tyrion)
He is on the cusp of being in control of Half of the entire Kingdom. Now I wonder what his plans are to get the last few bits. He likely has something in mind for the Reach, but I have no clue on the Stormlands, and Dorne seems very unlikely.
He is also effectively the Lord of the Vale (Technically Regent), and plans to have Sansa in various ways make claims to the North (Though Birth), the Vale (Though marriage to Harrold), and to Casterty Rock (Though marriage and 'widowship' to Tyrion)
He is on the cusp of being in control of Half of the entire Kingdom. Now I wonder what his plans are to get the last few bits. He likely has something in mind for the Reach, but I have no clue on the Stormlands, and Dorne seems very unlikely.
Basileus777
Member
Littlefinger's authority in the Riverlands is purely nominal, it was just the means to get a title high enough for him to marry Lysa Arryn. And Sansa has no claim to Casterly Rock, an unconsummated marriage with no children is nothing at all. So he has a tenuous grasp over the Vale and holds a potential heir to the North, he's got a ways to go.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I think unconsummated marriages are considered practically void in Westeros based on what Tyrion was saying about it in ASOS such that she could re-marry without issues. Sansa obviously would have no claim to Casterly Rock anyways; even assuming Tyrion had a claim, he's alive. If he managed to get a pardon or something, I'm not sure whether Lordship of Casterly Rock would pass to him. Tywin implied otherwise, but I never got the impression that being the Lord of a particular house was something you could switch around (e.g. Randyll Tarly had to force Samwell to take the Black to prevent him from becoming Lord of Horn Hill over his brother).
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
It's not that marriages which haven't been consummated are actually void themselves, but rather that it is legally possible to void them, although very difficult. Only a High Septon or a Council of the Faith (whatever the fuck that means) can null an unconsummated marriage. Tyrion points this out to Tywin when he discusses how there isn't an actual chance of his marriage being nullified because the High Septon is under their control.
It means that there's a chance (whereas there seems to be no way to nullify a marriage that has been consummated), but it's not an especially likely scenario for most people to encounter.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Figured I'd ask this here, instead of creating more black barred posts in the show thread. What do you guys think the writers will do about the end of Tyrion's arc in ASOS (which I'm assuming will occur next season)? He's quite a beloved character thus far and I'm curious how TV audiences will feel about him killing Shae and his father. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the writers changed things to make it more sympathetic, such as Tyrion accidentally killing Shae, or shooting Tywin after he lunges at him with a sword. Both of which seem like crappy changes so I hope I'm wrong.
The Red Wedding is in ep9 this season and we don't know whether Joff's wedding is in ep10 or moved to next season, which would make sense. Seems like S4 would be the wedding (perhaps the premier ep would include it), Tyrion's trial, killing Shae/Tywin...and then him escaping King's Landing. The natural end would be for Tyrion to realize he's being sent to meet Dany in the S4 finale. And of course new viewers will be disappointed when S5 doesn't include any such thing lmao.
The Red Wedding is in ep9 this season and we don't know whether Joff's wedding is in ep10 or moved to next season, which would make sense. Seems like S4 would be the wedding (perhaps the premier ep would include it), Tyrion's trial, killing Shae/Tywin...and then him escaping King's Landing. The natural end would be for Tyrion to realize he's being sent to meet Dany in the S4 finale. And of course new viewers will be disappointed when S5 doesn't include any such thing lmao.
Basileus777
Member
Tyrion's murder of Shae was bad enough when GRRM had written her as just a gold-digger, I don't think there is any way for the show to pull off Tyrion intentionally killing show-Shae without making him look like a scumbag. But, well, Tyrion basically becomes a real scumbag after ASOS, so making him come off as a terrible person works fine.
I don't see how Joff's wedding could possibly be in this season. You'd need an episode just to deal with the fallout of the Red Wedding, rushing to something hundreds of pages later in the book would require them to make a mess of everything.
I don't see how Joff's wedding could possibly be in this season. You'd need an episode just to deal with the fallout of the Red Wedding, rushing to something hundreds of pages later in the book would require them to make a mess of everything.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I don't think its super likely they will write the Red Viper out of the series entirely, so I don't think Joffrey's wedding will be this year at all since he hasn't even been introduced or cast. I think its more likely they skip to showing Stoneheart rising as a cliffhanger.
As for Tyrion, I don't think they will change all that much with the exception that I don't think its tremendously likely he's going to strangle her. I wouldn't be surprised if Shae's duplicity is increased since its difficult to show the level of betrayal Tyrion experiences in show form.
I can't recall exactly, but shouldn't she already have the necklace by now? I don't remember seeing it in the show which might mean they are going to go in a different direction.
Just got caught up on last weeks show and the Blackfish is great (never occurred to me while reading the books, but basically everyone who is either super young or super old is pretty awesome and everyone else is dumb). I was bummed we didn't see Reek, but looks like we are getting a different version of a mindfuck.
Just got caught up on last weeks show and the Blackfish is great (never occurred to me while reading the books, but basically everyone who is either super young or super old is pretty awesome and everyone else is dumb). I was bummed we didn't see Reek, but looks like we are getting a different version of a mindfuck.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Agreed, I expect all that stuff to occur next season. I also believe the Red Viper will be included, although I suppose they could just replace him with Bronn (which I wouldn't like). Seems like the Red Viper would be essential to introduce Dorne, which will play a more prominent role later (for good or ill depending on your views, personally I liked the Dorne stuff but I doubt audiences will care about them).
The Red Viper seems like he'd be quite a fan favorite, and follow the show's tradition of introducing an exciting character who only appears in one season/book (Syrio in S1, Jaquen in S2).
The Red Viper seems like he'd be quite a fan favorite, and follow the show's tradition of introducing an exciting character who only appears in one season/book (Syrio in S1, Jaquen in S2).
Howland Reed is the most baddass character of the books without needing to appear one single time. But he must be played by James Olmos. It is known.
The Joffrey wedding will probably be like episode 4 or 5 next season. They have to cover quite a bit of ground between both weddings. Episode 10 this season will be the aftermath. It will set up the Boltons as the bastards they are and it should contain the aftermath of Jon climbing the wall.
The trial should be enough to make her completely unlikeable.
Basileus777
Member
Show Shae is a different character with different origins, they'd have to handle that entirely differently because it would be out of character for her to abandon Tyrion for jewels. And even in the books, Tyrion just comes across as a murderous fool. He's a john that convinced himself he was in love with a prostitute, and then killed her because she was sleeping with another man. Tyrion shouldn't come across as sympathetic, it's not an act deserving of sympathy.
Reek took months, if not a year of psychological torture. Why would you expect Reek so early?
We don't even know what he looks like!
endlessflood
Member
He will look baddass!
See? Baddass!
I can't see him doing a good English accent though.
Basileus777
Member
Those marsh-men simply speak English oddly.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
I can think of one time he does this to brilliant effect though and I think his main intention is to set the reader up. In literature or movies for that matter if the audience or reader doesn't see or read the death being described you immediately assume that the character survived. Its because of this archetype that you assume for chapters and chapters that Clegane is still alive. He even has a character voice the readers same suspicions when they say something like "We saw the Hound, he can't be dead" and instead of some intense revelation of how Clegane survived we have another character simply tell the reader in effect - "He was stabbed through dumbass of course he died."
I loved that.
Basileus777
Member
But the Hound is alive.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Nah I dont buy the whole split personality thing that THE HOUND part of Clegane is dead. Thats dumb as hell.
Then what was the point of the Septon telling the story where he metaphorically died?
I meant the part where Bolton's Bastard takes on Reek's identity and then becomes Theon's kind of advisor, not Theon's transformation that happens later. I was disappointed the show didn't have that part because I felt it made the end of last season more confusing than need be and the way Theon was manipulated (particularly with the boys from the mill) made him a more tragic character.
I'm expecting an eventual undead fight between the Hound and his brother, but knowing GRRM it will never happen.
endlessflood
Member
Jojen and Meera speak it fine
Ohhh, Reek #1. Well, Reek #2 technically. I was confused because you were talking about season 3, where the only Reek that might show up is Theon.
Id have killed the bitch for her performance in the trial as well, i see Tyrion's killing of his old man and Shae as revenge killings for being betrayed rather than him being a murderous fool.
Basileus777
Member
She didn't betray him. She was a whore, she had no obligation to Tyrion once he was put in prison. It's not Shae's fault her John was fucked up and fell in love with her and thought they had a real relationship. Hell, even Tyrion knew better, he thinks it to himself all throughout ACOK and ASOS.
Tywin is a different story obviously.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
The metaphor falls apart for me when he describes burying his physical body. He says something like - "I Buried him and put rocks on him to ensure the worms wouldn't eat his flesh" Having the Septon have characteristics like him seems like misdirection to me.
I of course could be wrong.
blainethemono
Member
There's also the thing about how the Elder Brother seems to know an impossibly detailed amount about Clegane, more than he ever would have been able to know without speaking to the man for a long time. And the gravedigger on the hill being a cripple who is fond of dogs. And the hound's horse being in the stables. He's definitely alive
I totally did not pick up on the Hound/gravedigger thing on my own the first time through the books. It makes sense, and it's certainly interesting/poetic/mysterious, but it better get more resolution than that if he is actually still alive. Same for the Mountain and whatever crazy necro/zombie state he's in... George needs a really good reason and strong upcoming ideas for tossing these developments in the mix in order to justify pulling those characters back from perfectly plausible and final deaths.
I'd be okay with never seeing the Hound again, it felt like a fitting conclusion for him to have metaphorically died and Sandor finds peace living a quiet life in the middle of nowhere.
Although it would be great to see him champion the faith versus undead Gregor championing Cersei, I don't see it happening; it flies in the face of the above.
As for the TV show,
Tywin (or Cersei) will order Shae's death and that will be another motivator in Tyrion killing his dad. They just haven't set it up in a way that it would be believable for him to kill her unless something drastic happens. Not that I want it to go this way but that's what it feels like
Although it would be great to see him champion the faith versus undead Gregor championing Cersei, I don't see it happening; it flies in the face of the above.
As for the TV show,
Tywin (or Cersei) will order Shae's death and that will be another motivator in Tyrion killing his dad. They just haven't set it up in a way that it would be believable for him to kill her unless something drastic happens. Not that I want it to go this way but that's what it feels like
bodyofanamerican
Member
I thought they were setting her up to be a crazy jealous type on the show with how she reacted to him saying Sansa was pretty. When he ends up being forced to marry Sansa, I figure show Shae wont believe that he's being forced into it, will go nuts with jealousy and betray him at the trial except with much more malice than in the book, with everything else staying as is (she fucks Tywin, Tyrion kills them both.)
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I really don't think that makes a lot of sense in terms of Tyrion's story arc. The fact that they went out of their way to keep the "any more whores" I find line from Tywin makes me think they're going to keep it the way it is in the books for effect.
I have a feeling this is the way they'll go with it, tyrion marries sansa, and shae gets jealous, not just turns for money, makes more sense for the show
John Dunbar
correct about everything
Maybe they do something like making her to testify against Tyrion by promising he won't be kexecuted but sent to the Wall, like Tywin said he would be before getting an arrow in his tummy. That way it could be even more tragic, Tyrion kills Shae who was just trying to save his life. Also, this would be right after he finds out about Tysha, so he might not be in the most rational of moods.
edit: jealousy for Sansa would work, too.
If you could read one chapter from another characters POV what would it be?
I'd love to see what Tywin was thinking when Tyrion appeared in his bed chamber and killed him, his thoughts about Tyrion's innocence or not and what he thought of Joffrey etc.
I think it'd be fascinating!
I'd love to see what Tywin was thinking when Tyrion appeared in his bed chamber and killed him, his thoughts about Tyrion's innocence or not and what he thought of Joffrey etc.
I think it'd be fascinating!
blainethemono
Member
The Hound. Maybe @ Blackwater when he breaks because of all the fire
Or maybe Varys
edit - Howland Reed
- Status