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[viciouskillersquirrel]

Just re-read the Red Wedding chapter. There's so much that I picked up on the re-read that I never did on the first go.

For instance, Edmure is a moron and Ashara Dayne was the blonde woman with the deep purple eyes Ned danced with at Harrenhall. Additionally, Catelyn ruins everything. I can see why book readers (I came into the series with the show) hate her so much.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Good thing that never happened then. I certainly never spoke in terms of certainties.
What is this even arguing against? I was saying that Tyrion would come across as a dick, and that it would be fine because it happened that way in the books too.

The boldest claim I've made is that if Tyrion kills her in the same way as in the books it will come off worse because he has more of a real relationship with Shae than in the books. You're inventing the claims of certainty.

I guess I'm not understanding what your point in the first place was, but that might have something to do with the fact that there's like three threads going at the same time and the original comment was from several days ago. If I missed something there, its my bad.

 

[PhoenixDark]

They're going to have to start making her less affectionate for Tyrion, but it'll be a delicate balance. If she just becomes bitter and jealous over Tyrion's marriage...it's hard to imagine that making audiences hate her. Then again, if she takes that bitterness and does something bad, like perhaps attacking Sansa, maybe audiences might begin to turn on her but that might also be too overt. Regardless, the writers have to set this up before Shae takes that witness stand against Tyrion in the trial. On one hand it has to make sense, on the other hand it has to come out of the blue.

So far the show has done a poor job of displaying her as what she is: a simple girl who likes fine things, jewelry, etc. Sure she threw a fit when Tyrion made her work in the kitchens but overall she has shown very little interest in wealth; she genuinely cares about Sansa, and her job seems to take up all her time. Which is why I believe the writers will focus on her being bitter and jealous of the wedding, and I really doubt that will be enough to make audiences side with Tyrion if/when he kills her.

Or perhaps we're all wrong and the show won't shy from making Tyrion unlikable. Television is full of grey characters who do ugly things right now. If people can cheer for Walter White, they can cheer for Tyrion.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Additionally, Catelyn ruins everything. I can see why book readers (I came into the series with the show) hate her so much.

Uhhh why?

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

Uhhh why?

- Is a poisonous bitch to Jon Snow, a fan favourite
- Encouraged Ned to go south in GoT
- Was relieved when it was the library burning because books lol
- Starts the war by kidnapping Tyrion based on unreliable information
- Hands Tyrion over to her crazy sister
- Basically forgets Rickon exists
- Frees Jaime Lannister on the basis of a plan that depended on the official sanction of the King in the North... without said sanction. Did so because she's selfish and puts her own needs ahead of the realm

The three big ones are sending Ned south, kidnapping Tyrion and freeing Jaime Lannister. She doomed her husband, started a war and planted the seeds of rebellion in her son's ranks (Karstark).

Not that I agree. Just saying I understand.

 

[toddhunter]

Or...what if she kills Sweet Robin?

I did a double take the other day when I was reading that she didn't already kill him.

Am I crazy or is there a section where she kills him or almost kills him by holding a pillow over his face?

 

[TCRS]

- Is a poisonous bitch to Jon Snow, a fan favourite
- Encouraged Ned to go south in GoT
- Was relieved when it was the library burning because books lol
- Starts the war by kidnapping Tyrion based on unreliable information
- Hands Tyrion over to her crazy sister
- Basically forgets Rickon exists
- Frees Jaime Lannister on the basis of a plan that depended on the official sanction of the King in the North... without said sanction. Did so because she's selfish and puts her own needs ahead of the realm

The three big ones are sending Ned south, kidnapping Tyrion and freeing Jaime Lannister. She doomed her husband, started a war and planted the seeds of rebellion in her son's ranks (Karstark).

Not that I agree. Just saying I understand.

Yup, I sse it the same way. One dumb decision after another that eventually led to the war and destruction of her family. Ned was going to refuse Robert if it wasn't for Catelyn.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

Yup, I sse it the same way. One dumb decision after another that eventually led to the war and destruction of her family. Ned was going to refuse Robert if it wasn't for Catelyn.

The way I see it, she couldn't have possibly seen the eventual consequences of sending Ned south. Kidnapping Tyrion and freeing Jaime though, straight-up dumb. The first because she was knowingly starting a war, the second because the plan rested on such a flimsy foundation.

 

[Jedeye Sniv]

They've already made her more sympathetic and more of a developed character than she was in the books, where she never advanced beyond whore who wants jewels. The show actually makes it seem like there is some affection between the two that exists beyond Tyrion's delusions. Murdering her is going to come off worse than it was in the books even if they start making her more duplicitous.

I don't know man, I think when you find out she was Tywin's spy all along it will hit even harder and make the murder mean even more. In the book it's sad but she's more a piece of property that Tywin has claimed, whereas there will be real betrayal in the show. It's going to be hard to watch, that scene.

 

[Basileus777]

I don't know man, I think when you find out she was Tywin's spy all along it will hit even harder and make the murder mean even more. In the book it's sad but she's more a piece of property that Tywin has claimed, whereas there will be real betrayal in the show. It's going to be hard to watch, that scene.

That's not a bad angle. It might be even better than what happens in the book, if a bit more melodramatic. In the book the whole thing was about Tyrion and his own baggage and delusions, giving Shae more agency in this would make it more interesting.

I can't remember, does show-Shae know about Tysha?

 

[The Elite]

Just watching that episode last night and thinking about all the people who think Dany will be heading to Westeros soon.

My feeling after five books is that she never goes to Westeros. Biggest troll in literary history.

 

[Realyn]

I'll agree on that. It seems rather cruel to end the last episode like that.

 

[LegendofJoe]

Just re-read the Red Wedding chapter. There's so much that I picked up on the re-read that I never did on the first go.

For instance, Edmure is a moron and Ashara Dayne was the blonde woman with the deep purple eyes Ned danced with at Harrenhall. Additionally, Catelyn ruins everything. I can see why book readers (I came into the series with the show) hate her so much.

Yeah the Tullys are a dumb lot, the Blackfish withstanding. I pretty much loathe that family.

 

[Joni]

Yeah the Tullys are a dumb lot, the Blackfish withstanding. I pretty much loathe that family.

Hoster just messed up raising his children. Aside from the Blackfish Hoster also seemed quite intelligent, managing to marry both your daughters to lords is quite good. You'd have a Tully heir in both the Vale and Winterfell aside from Riverrun.

 

[hemtae]

That's not a bad angle. It might be even better than what happens in the book, if a bit more melodramatic. In the book the whole thing was about Tyrion and his own baggage and delusions, giving Shae more agency in this would make it more interesting.

I can't remember, does show-Shae know about Tysha?

Yeah she does. In the show, Tyrion told the story about Tysha in the tent before the battle with the Bolton led northerners.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I'll agree on that. It seems rather cruel to end the last episode like that.

I sort of imagine that people will find it frustrating not only that she isn't going to Westeros, she practically isn't going to interact with any of the other established characters or even be more than tangentially relevant to their stories.

 

[aronnov reborn]

Was re-reading ASOS last night and was in a Dany Chapter and had a question.

Whitebear was telling a story of Rhaegar on how he took no interest in other children/war/fighting etc but just books. but then one day he read something in his scrolls that changed him.... "It seems I must be a warrior"

i dont suppose we've ever found out what that was or if we ever will?

 

[Baraka in the White House]

Was re-reading ASOS last night and was in a Dany Chapter and had a question.

Whitebear was telling a story of Rhaegar on how he took no interest in other children/war/fighting etc but just books. but then one day he read something in his scrolls that changed him.... "It seems I must be a warrior"

i dont suppose we've ever found out what that was or if we ever will?

It's implied that he came across the prophecy of The Prince That Was Promised. He initially believes himself to be the prince in that legend, hence him suddenly deciding he should probably learn how to fight.

 

[Basileus777]

Was re-reading ASOS last night and was in a Dany Chapter and had a question.

Whitebear was telling a story of Rhaegar on how he took no interest in other children/war/fighting etc but just books. but then one day he read something in his scrolls that changed him.... "It seems I must be a warrior"

i dont suppose we've ever found out what that was or if we ever will?

We've never gotten a definitive answer, just implications that Rhaegar was interested in prophecies and such.

 

[Wh0 N0se]

Summerhall was a result of that wasn't it? Is the theory that he tried to raise dragons or am I totally off here?

 

[Basileus777]

Summerhall was a result of that wasn't it? Is the theory that he tried to raise dragons or am I totally off here?

Rhaegar was born the same day Summerhall went up in flames, so he wasn't involved with it. But yeah, it seems to have involved some attempt at bringing back dragons.

 

[Wh0 N0se]

Rhaegar was born the same year Summerhall went up in flames, so he wasn't involved with it. But yeah, it seems to have involved some attempt at bringing back dragons.

Oh right, Got my timeline messed up then, but he definitely went back and visited it. Do we think we'll find out what happened there in the main series or in the world of ice and fire book?

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Oh right, Got my timeline messed up then, but he definitely went back and visited it. Do we think we'll find out what happened there in the main series or in the world of ice and fire book?

My money is that we won't know until the final Dunk and Egg.

 

[FStop7]

Lady's dead. So Sansa's gotta die, too. Seems like an inevitability.

The dead stag that killed the dire wolf foretold the ends of the houses of Stark and Baratheon.

Though separated, Arya and Nymeria are pretty much going through similar experiences.

Dany foresaw the Red Wedding in the House of the Undying.

GRRM likes to give weight to prophecies.

Sansa's a walking corpse.

 

[Violater]

Lady's dead. So Sansa's gotta die, too. Seems like an inevitability.

The dead stag that killed the dire wolf foretold the ends of the houses of Stark and Baratheon.

Though separated, Arya and Nymeria are pretty much going through similar experiences.

Dany foresaw the Red Wedding in the House of the Undying.

GRRM likes to give weight to prophecies.

Sansa's a walking corpse.

How is her death foretold?
Just because she lost her wolf?
Sanasa is more of a trout than a direwolf anyway.

 

[Trasher]

Lady's dead. So Sansa's gotta die, too. Seems like an inevitability.

The dead stag that killed the dire wolf foretold the ends of the houses of Stark and Baratheon.

Though separated, Arya and Nymeria are pretty much going through similar experiences.

Dany foresaw the Red Wedding in the House of the Undying.

GRRM likes to give weight to prophecies.

Sansa's a walking corpse.

The dead stag and the dead direwolf don't symbolize the houses in my opinion. If anything, they symbolize Robert and Ned. Stannis is still alive, and all of the Stark children are still alive except for Robb. The house of Stark is far from being ended.

 

[Dresden]

I'd see it more as foreshadowing for her needing to bury her Stark-ness to survive.

 

[Forsaken82]

Lady's dead. So Sansa's gotta die, too. Seems like an inevitability.

The dead stag that killed the dire wolf foretold the ends of the houses of Stark and Baratheon.

Though separated, Arya and Nymeria are pretty much going through similar experiences.

Dany foresaw the Red Wedding in the House of the Undying.

GRRM likes to give weight to prophecies.

Sansa's a walking corpse.

I never got this at all...

Nymeria is leading a pack of wolves (a HUGE pack no less)... How does Arya's experience with the faceless men compare?

 

[PhoenixDark]

I think Sansa will die, but not in TWOW. Personally I think/hope we see her put the education in power (courtesy of Littlefinger) to use somehow, and become a player in the game.

 

[Joni]

Every Stark alive has had lost his identity: Jon is the Night Watch, Bran is a tree, Arya is a faceless assassin and Sansa is using a different name. The Stark 'lineage' is dead at the moment so it could symbolize both the house as just Ned.

 

[Forsaken82]

Every Stark alive has had lost his identity: Jon is the Night Watch, Bran is a tree, Arya is a faceless assassin and Sansa is using a different name. The Stark 'lineage' is dead at the moment so it could symbolize both the house as just Ned.

We have no idea what Rickon is up to and Theon is still alive to confirm both of them were never killed by his hand and Arya was not wed to Ramsey. The stark lineage is far from gone. The more appropriate question is how will the Stark name be reintroduced after the family has seemingly been wiped out to the rest of the world.

 

[Dysun]

A Time for Wolves was the name of the final book, I can't see the Stark house dying out even in name only.

A Stark will sit in Winterfell when all is said and done, whether it's completely destroyed by the Others and has to be re-built well that's another matter..

 

[Angry Grimace]

The dead stag and the dead direwolf don't symbolize the houses in my opinion. If anything, they symbolize Robert and Ned. Stannis is still alive, and all of the Stark children are still alive except for Robb. The house of Stark is far from being ended.

You would think they'd have larger branch houses if Stannis is really the last legitimate Baratheon.

 

[Trasher]

A Time for Wolves was the name of the final book, I can't see the Stark house dying out even in name only.

A Stark will sit in Winterfell when all is said and done, whether it's completely destroyed by the Others and has to be re-built well that's another matter..

Bran will rebuild it. Believe!

 

[FStop7]

I never got this at all...

Nymeria is leading a pack of wolves (a HUGE pack no less)... How does Arya's experience with the faceless men compare?

The way I see it is that they're both separated from their packs and have become / are becoming renowned killers with their surrogate families.

A Time for Wolves was the name of the final book, I can't see the Stark house dying out even in name only.

A Stark will sit in Winterfell when all is said and done, whether it's completely destroyed by the Others and has to be re-built well that's another matter..

I thought the final book was A Dream of Spring?

 

[RyanDG]

Lady's dead. So Sansa's gotta die, too. Seems like an inevitability.

The dead stag that killed the dire wolf foretold the ends of the houses of Stark and Baratheon.

Though separated, Arya and Nymeria are pretty much going through similar experiences.

Dany foresaw the Red Wedding in the House of the Undying.

GRRM likes to give weight to prophecies.

Sansa's a walking corpse.

I think you can also infer that Sansa's false testimony favoring the Lannister's over the Starks essentially killed the "Stark" inside her. Lady (a representation of the Stark children belonging to a family) was a victim of that testimony, similar to how Ned was also killed by false testimony. I don't think you can assume that Sansa's death is inevitable, I think at this point you have to basically just assume that she will never regain her role as a Stark.

 

[Dysun]

The way I see it is that they're both separated from their packs and have become / are becoming renowned killers with their surrogate families.



I thought the final book was A Dream of Spring?

It was originally going to be A Time for Wolves but GRRM decided to rename it A Dream of Spring.

 

[Trasher]

It was originally going to be A Time for Wolves but GRRM decided to rename it A Dream of Spring.

That's quite foretelling lol.

Maybe he thought the title was too spoilerish, or maybe he just wanted to fuck with us and give false hope lol.

 

[Hystzen]

The only thing living in Winterfell at the end will be Direwolves it will be a lair for them and the remaining living ones be a family.

 

[FStop7]

Speaking of prophecies, has anyone else wondered if the TV version of Dany's vision in the House of the Undying offered up extra info? Particularly the part where she wandered through an empty (and apparently destroyed) throne room in King's Landing. The place was abandoned and it appeared to be snowing. But it also might have been ashes.

I wouldn't be that surprised if King's Landing were to be obliterated. Or all of Westeros. On last night's episode Varys even mentioned something like "Littlefinger would burn all of Westeros if he could be king of the ashes"

 

[lingiii]

clarified:

A Time for Wolves was going to be the name of the final book, I can't see the Stark house dying out even in name only.

I thought the final book was A Dream of Spring?

I believe GRR had planned on--and talked about--"A Time for Wolves" as the title, but maybe isn't going to use it now.

EDIT oops should've refreshed this page before responding.

 

[Moff]

Speaking of prophecies, has anyone else wondered if the TV version of Dany's vision in the House of the Undying offered up extra info? Particularly the part where she wandered through an empty (and apparently destroyed) throne room in King's Landing. The place was abandoned and it appeared to be snowing. But it also might have been ashes.

I wouldn't be that surprised if King's Landing were to be obliterated. Or all of Westeros. On last night's episode Varys even mentioned something like "Littlefinger would burn all of Westeros if he could be king of the ashes"

I think they were pretty clear on that one. Kings Landing will be destroyed, I do not doubt that.
I cant imagine they would have implemented such a vision if it would contradict GRRMS grand plan, and we know he told them.

 

[CitizenVectron]

Speaking of prophecies, has anyone else wondered if the TV version of Dany's vision in the House of the Undying offered up extra info? Particularly the part where she wandered through an empty (and apparently destroyed) throne room in King's Landing. The place was abandoned and it appeared to be snowing. But it also might have been ashes.

I wouldn't be that surprised if King's Landing were to be obliterated. Or all of Westeros. On last night's episode Varys even mentioned something like "Littlefinger would burn all of Westeros if he could be king of the ashes"

I think Littlefinger may be set up as the main bad guy near the end, but it will all be wrong and even though is is a bad guy, his defeat will mean nothing because the White Walkers will swoop down and take most of the continent anyway.

 

[Forsaken82]

I think Littlefinger may be set up as the main bad guy near the end, but it will all be wrong and even though is is a bad guy, his defeat will mean nothing because the White Walkers will swoop down and take most of the continent anyway.

This is definitely something I have speculated since the reveal at the end of ASOS. His role has certainly been down played in the books i think. The expanded Littlefinger on the show only makes it stand out more i think.

 

[Salvadora]

This series is never going end in two books.

It seems impossible.

 

[Conor 419]

Lady's dead. So Sansa's gotta die, too. Seems like an inevitability.

The dead stag that killed the dire wolf foretold the ends of the houses of Stark and Baratheon.

Though separated, Arya and Nymeria are pretty much going through similar experiences.

Dany foresaw the Red Wedding in the House of the Undying.

GRRM likes to give weight to prophecies.

Sansa's a walking corpse.

End of house Stark and Baratheon, what?

Sansa's the survival Stark, if any.

I think you can also infer that Sansa's false testimony favoring the Lannister's over the Starks essentially killed the "Stark" inside her. Lady (a representation of the Stark children belonging to a family) was a victim of that testimony, similar to how Ned was also killed by false testimony. I don't think you can assume that Sansa's death is inevitable, I think at this point you have to basically just assume that she will never regain her role as a Stark.

Yeah this isn't happening.

 

[lingiii]

This is definitely something I have speculated since the reveal at the end of ASOS. His role has certainly been down played in the books i think. The expanded Littlefinger on the show only makes it stand out more i think.

I think Littlefinger may be set up as the main bad guy near the end, but it will all be wrong and even though is is a bad guy, his defeat will mean nothing because the White Walkers will swoop down and take most of the continent anyway.

Yeah man, all this business with debt building with the Iron Bank is some kind of puppet-master style long play. he's clearly got a long vision, and it doesn't end with the Vale or even Vale + Winterfell + Harrenhall.

Thing I'm not sure about him is all this mystical business brewing. He's so totally a secular bro I don't know how he fits into dragons and fire gods and Azor Ahais and The Internet in the North. seems like any of those things just trump his schemes straight off.

Meanwhile, what was up with that prisoner the Spider was keeping in the show this week? I just reread Storm of Swords like last month and don't remember anything like that. is that supposed to be a nod to something else I haven't put together, or was it invented whole cloth?

 

[Majmun]

Just watching that episode last night and thinking about all the people who think Dany will be heading to Westeros soon.

My feeling after five books is that she never goes to Westeros. Biggest troll in literary history.

I just finished watching the episode and thought the same LMAO

She'll probably reach Westeros during season 6 or 7 lol

 

[exYle]

This series is never going end in two books.

It seems impossible.

I feel it is. Storm of Swords swept away a lot of plot lines built up in GoT and CoK, so much so that they had to introduce new ones.

- The War of the Five Kings essentially ended; at the very least, the threat to King's Landing did
- Jaime's hostage situation was resolved and he got to go home
- The Hound and the Mountain were "killed"
- The entire King in the North plotline was ended
- Joffrey got his comeuppance
- Dany gained a position of power, Jorah's betrayal was finally revealed
- The Wildling Army was stopped in it's tracks
- Sansa managed to escape King's Landing
- Bran makes it out of civilized Westeros
- Tyrion gets exiled

And so on and so forth. I understand that a lot of these "ended" stories still continue, but they continue on as new goals and endpoints for an effective second trilogy in the series.

 

[Salvadora]

I feel it is. Storm of Swords swept away a lot of plot lines built up in GoT and CoK, so much so that they had to introduce new ones.

- The War of the Five Kings essentially ended; at the very least, the threat to King's Landing did
- Jaime's hostage situation was resolved and he got to go home
- The Hound and the Mountain were "killed"
- The entire King in the North plotline was ended
- Joffrey got his comeuppance
- Dany gained a position of power, Jorah's betrayal was finally revealed
- The Wildling Army was stopped in it's tracks
- Sansa managed to escape King's Landing
- Bran makes it out of civilized Westeros
- Tyrion gets exiled

And so on and so forth. I understand that a lot of these "ended" stories still continue, but they continue on as new goals and endpoints for an effective second trilogy in the series.

I just don't know.

The pace seems to have slowed down considerably. Whilst GRRM could surprise us all and get shit done in the last two books, I'm starting to lose a little faith.

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1a92tn/spoilers_allthe_ever_increasing_scope_of_asoiaf/
I mean, fuck. Look at all that! And couple it with all the POVs we have!