I think they've done a fine job at that, they've made it clear that Frey is a stubborn and prickly man and that Robb was supposed to marry one of his daughter's.
Where they haven't done a great job with Robb is portray that he is an excellent tactician. I read stuff from viewers and critics that haven't read the books that Robb is an awful tactician, which isn't why he's losing the war at this point. The fact that they never explained in the slightest what he was doing last season and the fallout of that was a bit damaging to his character I think.
I think the TV character and think Richard Madden is great as him, but they've missed some opportunities with the character.
My wife who has not read the books has been constantly saying Robb was silly for betraying the Freys, so they have certainly been doing enough to get some people to understand why the red wedding will happen, even if some are going to need it explained (which it no doubt will be).
However, considering her face at the end of the last episode when they were about to cut Theon I can only imagine what she is going to do when the red wedding happens.
When Joff dies (she does know that is coming, she found out by accident but has no idea when) she's going to dance around the living room lol.
It feels like Robb hasn't been seen as much as he was in the books (via other characters) and that's a shame as Madden has been doing well with him, but then it's a large cast and we don't have unlimited time.
Also, I really don't want to see Tywin get killed, Charles Dance has been excellent.
I feel like she skips every other week now, kinda frustrating. She started A Game of Thrones early 2011! I can't imagine reading the series at that pace.
not reading anything in this thread because I am thinking about starting the series, but didn't want to start a thread of my own for this.
I haven't seen the show, or read any of the books, or anything. Basically I don't know anything about the series, and if I read it, I want to keep it that way until I discover things myself.
My question is, how bummed would I be if I made it through all the books that are out now, and Martin has a grabber and the series is never completed? Is there enough so far where I wouldn't always be wondering what happened next?
I mean, of course that would happen even if all the books are finished, but I mean, are there any huge plot points (don't mention details please) that would drive a man crazy not knowing the outcome?
not reading anything in this thread because I am thinking about starting the series, but didn't want to start a thread of my own for this.
I haven't seen the show, or read any of the books, or anything. Basically I don't know anything about the series, and if I read it, I want to keep it that way until I discover things myself.
My question is, how bummed would I be if I made it through all the books that are out now, and Martin has a grabber and the series is never completed? Is there enough so far where I wouldn't always be wondering what happened next?
I mean, of course that would happen even if all the books are finished, but I mean, are there any huge plot points (don't mention details please) that would drive a man crazy not knowing the outcome?
Yes, you would be disappointed if he died and didn't finish them since the main stories are unresolved. However, the show runners have been given the plot resolutions so they would finish the TV series the way George intended to finish the books (with the expected differences present in the mediums).
And even with the lack of closure if he died, the existing 5 books are worth it.
not reading anything in this thread because I am thinking about starting the series, but didn't want to start a thread of my own for this.
I haven't seen the show, or read any of the books, or anything. Basically I don't know anything about the series, and if I read it, I want to keep it that way until I discover things myself.
My question is, how bummed would I be if I made it through all the books that are out now, and Martin has a grabber and the series is never completed? Is there enough so far where I wouldn't always be wondering what happened next?
I mean, of course that would happen even if all the books are finished, but I mean, are there any huge plot points (don't mention details please) that would drive a man crazy not knowing the outcome?
The story isn't the main reason the books are good. It's actually pretty weak but the characters are so well written that you don't mind. If we we're talking about Wheel of Time and Robert Jordan then the reverse would apply.
For those who have done a reread, have you also felt way different than the first read? It's pretty amazing how although I expected to find things I missed, how different I perceive things with all the hindsight I now have. I'm on Sansa's chapter when she tells the queen she's going to write the letters and man how pissed am I at Sansa right now for her cluelessness. I also cannot believe how many mistakes Ned made, just blows my mind. Anyway, I've actually never re-read a book in my life so close to the first time I read it but the way I feel about everything is so different. I'm also re-pissed at Jaime after growing to like him so much.
I'm just beginning aDwD but I have to say I'm disappointed with the characters of Beric Dondarrion and Mance Rayder. Seems like they had potential to be great characters but never fully realize it.
What? Mance Rayder is an awesome character. Beric I agree, but by the time we meet him he's died 6 times. Really the Red God only kept him alive so he'd be around to bring back Lady Stoneheart.
Yeah I don't really mind spoilers. I know what I'm getting into when I come into this thread. On a different note, what is the deal with king's blood? Anyone who calls themselves a king, and their children are all king's blood? It doesn't seem as though Mance's blood is very Kingly. The guy deserted the Night's Watch and just fell into becoming King beyond the wall.
Yeah I don't really mind spoilers. I know what I'm getting into when I come into this thread. On a different note, what is the deal with king's blood? Anyone who calls themselves a king, and their children are all king's blood? It doesn't seem as though Mance's blood is very Kingly. The guy deserted the Night's Watch and just fell into becoming King beyond the wall.
Robert wasn't born a King either. He became one through conquest.
But both were recognized as kings by their subjects.
Mance is alive the last time we see him in dance, but it is possible he was captured by the Boltons. The pink letter suggests some source of info for its writer, and a captured "Abel" would explain that.
There's a marked spoilers book thread for those LTTP, BTW.
Yeah I don't really mind spoilers. I know what I'm getting into when I come into this thread. On a different note, what is the deal with king's blood? Anyone who calls themselves a king, and their children are all king's blood? It doesn't seem as though Mance's blood is very Kingly. The guy deserted the Night's Watch and just fell into becoming King beyond the wall.
I can't really think of any examples where king's blood was demonstrably effective. I remember Stannis burning the leeches but who's to say that it was the magic that caused the deaths of the three kings? Pretty much all three of their deaths were set in motion long before Melisandre started tossing things into the fire.
Technically speaking, Bob and Stans first cousin, once removed, is Aerys II ( through his aunt Rhaelle ) so that means he could have been 'born' with kings blood. Though, personally I think the kings blood power thingy is mostly bogus. Robb, Joff and Balon didn't die because of leeches. They were murdered. If all the lord of light needs is some leeches to kill people indirectly, then we wouldn't have a conflict. I do think blood magic is real enough, but I don't think that was an example of it.
Technically speaking, Bob and Stans first cousin, once removed, is Aerys II ( through his aunt Rhaelle ) so that means he could have been 'born' with kings blood. Though, personally I think the kings blood power thingy is mostly bogus. Robb, Joff and Balon didn't die because of leeches. They were murdered. If all the lord of light needs is some leeches to kill people indirectly, then we wouldn't have a conflict. I do think blood magic is real enough, but I don't think that was an example of it.
I think it's implied that she saw the deaths in her fires and she made the show to persuade Stannis. There would be no need for shadow babies if she could kill that easily.
I think it's implied that she saw the deaths in her fires and she made the show to persuade Stannis. There would be no need for shadow babies if she could kill that easily.
True enough. But then, I don't think Melisandre is always being insincere. She definitely wanted to burn Edric, and not just to prove a point to Stannis. I think she does what her fires tell her to do, in this case, try burn Edric, but she might not know that her wanting to burn Edric would lead to Davos sending him away and reminding Stannis of his duty, hence them ending up at the wall. Of course, while not canon, it does explain Melisandre's extravagant trip to the Riverlands in the TV series. She definitely wants to get her hands on Gendry, probably because her fires told her to, but she doesn't know why, yet...
True enough. But then, I don't think Melisandre is always being insincere. She definitely wanted to burn Edric, and not just to prove a point to Stannis. I think she does what her fires tell her to do, in this case, try burn Edric, but she might not know that her wanting to burn Edric would lead to Davos sending him away and reminding Stannis of his duty, hence them ending up at the wall. Of course, while not canon, it does explain Melisandre's extravagant trip to the Riverlands in the TV series. She definitely wants to get her hands on Gendry, probably because her fires told her to, but she doesn't know why, yet...
This is how I've always thought of Melisandre, no real hidden agenda, just blind faith that she is doing the lord of light's work, but mostly misunderstanding what is really going on.
Mellisandre's defining characteristic is definitely incompetence.
Just got to the part in Dance With Dragons where she mentions looking for Azor Ahai in her fires but only sees snow. To Lord Commander Jon Fucking Snow she says this. I thought it was funny how GRR like never refers to Jon as Snow throughout the chapter, as if to make this little not at his big role to play less obvious.
Just finished rereading the main series plus the Dunk and Egg novellas. I enjoyed Dance with Dragons more than on my previous read throughs, but it's still such a mess. It's so obviously the bits and pieces of multiple books that Martin has stitched together into a 1000 page monster. Half the storylines are little more than reminders that yes, these characters still exist and end before they go anywhere (Arya, Bran, Cersei, Jaime, Davos). Meereen isn't quite the headache that I remembered, but it still feels like a gigantic waste of time that has no bearing on anything else going on in the story.
Part of the problem is that Martin's tricks get pretty tiresome after awhile. Characters having near meetings but just missing each other, cliffhanger after cliffhanger after cliffhanger, mercenaries betraying their clients for empty promises (why the fuck would the Tattered Prince expect someone on the other side of the world to be able to help him capture Pentos?)--it just gets so tiresome and predictable. Worst of all, he decides to end the book before the climax, not after it, and gives us a pair of the shittiest cliffhangers he's come up with so far as compensation. One is Jon Snow's shocking death, which everybody knows is not a death at all, and the other is whatever is supposed to be going on in Meereen. Stopping a sentence midway through doesn't make your listeners more interested in what you're saying, it annoys them, and Dragons is a nest of half finished sentences.
Also: Fuck Quentyn Martell, what a waste of time.
Also Also: Part of my annoyance probably stems from having read TWOW preview chapters.
Seriously, two fucking chapters of Arianne Martell traveling with nothing happening at all? And having to change course mid-trip because someone isn't where they're supposed to be?
Yeah I really hate how Martin has seemingly forgotten how to write tight narratives. I always groan now whenever a character sets off toward a destination because I know their journey will be narrated in painful, mundane detail.
Just finished rereading the main series plus the Dunk and Egg novellas. I enjoyed Dance with Dragons more than on my previous read throughs, but it's still such a mess. It's so obviously the bits and pieces of multiple books that Martin has stitched together into a 1000 page monster. Half the storylines are little more than reminders that yes, these characters still exist and end before they go anywhere (Arya, Bran, Cersei, Jaime, Davos). Meereen isn't quite the headache that I remembered, but it still feels like a gigantic waste of time that has no bearing on anything else going on in the story.
Part of the problem is that Martin's tricks get pretty tiresome after awhile. Characters having near meetings but just missing each other, cliffhanger after cliffhanger after cliffhanger, mercenaries betraying their clients for empty promises (why the fuck would the Tattered Prince expect someone on the other side of the world to be able to help him capture Pentos?)--it just gets so tiresome and predictable. Worst of all, he decides to end the book before the climax, not after it, and gives us a pair of the shittiest cliffhangers he's come up with so far as compensation. One is Jon Snow's shocking death, which everybody knows is not a death at all, and the other is whatever is supposed to be going on in Meereen. Stopping a sentence midway through doesn't make your listeners more interested in what you're saying, it annoys them, and Dragons is a nest of half finished sentences.
Also: Fuck Quentyn Martell, what a waste of time.
Also Also: Part of my annoyance probably stems from having read TWOW preview chapters.
Seriously, two fucking chapters of Arianne Martell traveling with nothing happening at all? And having to change course mid-trip because someone isn't where they're supposed to be?
Couldn't agree more. I think Martin is a bit like the fantasy writer equivalent of Quentin Tarantino in that he's capable of some excellent writing at times, but really suffers from the lack of a hard nosed editor to slap some sense into him and keep him on point. AFFC & ADWD are flabby to the point of monotony (do we really need seven sand snakes Vs maybe one?) and as you rightly point out Martin keeps playing the same tricks (hey they're dead..oh no they're not!!) and it just gets rather dull and predictable. Hopefully TWOW will be much tighter, but I must admit I'm struggling to see Martin bringing things home to a satisfactory conclusion given his endless love of quite pointless flab. Blasphemous as it sounds, I'm personally looking forward to the show take on AFFC & ADWD as I expect it will be a lot more concise and lose the irrelevances and unnecessary characters.
Martin lost his way when he couldn't get the 5 year gap to work. It feels like he's lost the ability to tell stories without showing everything on screen. And he doesn't seem able to kill his darlings anymore. It happened to Robert Jordan too, some things are best left unwritten, we don't need to see everything.
People saying he's lost his ability to kill characters because he likes them too much but when you think about it, Ned was always going to die in the first book and Robb and Catelyn etc died at where they were supposed to.
He's not killing off these characters because they either have a role to play, will die in the future at the point they were supposed to die.
People saying he's lost his ability to kill characters because he likes them too much but when you think about it, Ned was always going to die in the first book and Robb and Catelyn etc died at where they were supposed to.
He's not killing off these characters because they either have a role to play, will die in the future at the point they were supposed to die.
Are you talking about my post? Killing your darlings doesn't refer to killing off characters. It's a reference to a Faulkner quote. It basically means sometimes you have to cut out sentences, scenes, characters, or even plotlines that you really like because they don't belong and their presence actually hurts the story as a whole.
The Targs were kings for only ~300 years and were only a minor Valyrian family before that. So some of the older Westerosi families would've had a much stronger King's blood since they were the King of their realm for a much longer time. For example, the Starks were the Kings of Winter for reputedly thousands of years.
I don't think we really know how minor of a family the Targs were before the doom. They were able to flee to dragonstone with a bunch of dragons, so they were probably not insignificant.
Yeah I really hate how Martin has seemingly forgotten how to write tight narratives. I always groan now whenever a character sets off toward a destination because I know their journey will be narrated in painful, mundane detail.
I don't think we really know how minor of a family the Targs were before the doom. They were able to flee to dragonstone with a bunch of dragons, so they were probably not insignificant.
They were a noble house and they could ride dragons, so they were not insignificant, but they were hardly an important house. The wiki says that one of them had a vision so they relocated to Dragonstone - the westernmost outpost of Valyria - some years before the Doom and were thus the only Dragonriders to survive.
I've always looked at it like this: The power in King's blood comes from people's recognition of its power (or potential power), so R'hllor finds their willingness to sacrifice it more pleasing.
I've always looked at it like this: The power in King's blood comes from people's recognition of its power (or potential power), so R'hllor finds their willingness to sacrifice it more pleasing.
I don't remember, but was it ever explained how Jon convinced Melisandre to swap Mance with Rattleshirt? If she wanted to sacrifice a king, she certainly wouldn't be satisfied with the Lord of Bones...
I don't remember, but was it ever explained how Jon convinced Melisandre to swap Mance with Rattleshirt? If she wanted to sacrifice a king, she certainly wouldn't be satisfied with the Lord of Bones...
I don't remember, but was it ever explained how Jon convinced Melisandre to swap Mance with Rattleshirt? If she wanted to sacrifice a king, she certainly wouldn't be satisfied with the Lord of Bones...
Derp, I meant Mance, not Jon. I knew Jon didn't know about it, I even remembered the scene where he learns of the glamour. I mangled that phrasing so bad. Let me try again.
Melisandre wanted to sacrifice the King beyond the wall. Instead she glamoured him up and sacrificed Rattleshirt instead. I forgot why she swapped them, basically. Who convinced her not to sacrifice Mance?
Derp, I meant Mance, not Jon. I knew Jon didn't know about it, I even remembered the scene where he learns of the glamour. I mangled that phrasing so bad. Let me try again.
Melisandre wanted to sacrifice the King beyond the wall. Instead she glamoured him up and sacrificed Rattleshirt instead. I forgot why she swapped them, basically. Who convinced her not to sacrifice Mance?
It was Melisandre who convinced herself unless she saw a vision and that pointed her in that direction. She wanted to use Mance to rescue "Arya" and gain Jon's trust.
Just a quote from Elio's review of the last Episode of Game of Thrones:
Cersei and Margaery: Unbeknownst to the writers of the show, Cerseis account of the fall of House Reyne is substantially out of line with what Martin has revealed to us for The World of Ice and Fire, but even without that, there is one clear contradiction: in the novels, the Reynes rebelled against Lord Tytos, father of Tywin Lannister, rather than against Tywin himself as Cersei claims.
