John Dunbar
correct about everything
He writes "Unbeknownst to the writers", but it's probably them just not caring, which explains them streamlining Tywin's father out of it.
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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
- Thread starter Pollux
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He writes "Unbeknownst to the writers", but it's probably them just not caring, which explains them streamlining Tywin's father out of it.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Figured this theory is more appropriate in this thead even if it doesn't contain any spoilers:
Well, the books are called "A Song of Fire and Ice". Clearly, fire and ice are two oppossing forces in the world of GoT. Ice seems to take the form of the white walkers, whereas Fire intervenes through its followers. Presumably, we only see the influence of Fire through its believers, as it unlike Ice cannot be embodied (though it can create killing shadow beings, just as fire creates potentially poisonous smoke) - it is a fleeting force of nature not unlike that of the fire burning in the hearts of men (e.g. passion).
Ice on the other hand is fundamentally embodied in the world, as, well, ice. Therefore, instead of religious folk carrying out the will of Winter (I guess some people count as believers though, like that dude who fucked his daughters), Ice simply has chosen to embody itself in physical ice avatars.
Perhaps this is at the cost of being able to channel magic into ordinary beings, it has to channel its magic through its embodied form, like when white walkers resurrect dead people into zombies. That's a significantly worse version of the resurrection Lord of Light followers have access too, perhaps because the LoL can in addition to its own power draw upon the innate life force (or internal fire, passion) of its subjects as they cast the spell - which is why we get drastically improved resurrections. Or maybe ice is just antithetical to life, as it is usually not depicted as a crucial part of humanity (unlike fire, which has plenty of analogies in the nature of men)
I dunno how dragons play into this, as they seem to be embodiments of fire - avatars of the fire god. It seems like that would throw the balance in favour of the fire god, which is maybe why winter is coming - to kill as many men as possible so as to reduce the power the god of fire can possibly draw upon, and before the dragons grow up to become a threat.
...
That does seem to be the case, yeah?
Well, the books are called "A Song of Fire and Ice". Clearly, fire and ice are two oppossing forces in the world of GoT. Ice seems to take the form of the white walkers, whereas Fire intervenes through its followers. Presumably, we only see the influence of Fire through its believers, as it unlike Ice cannot be embodied (though it can create killing shadow beings, just as fire creates potentially poisonous smoke) - it is a fleeting force of nature not unlike that of the fire burning in the hearts of men (e.g. passion).
Ice on the other hand is fundamentally embodied in the world, as, well, ice. Therefore, instead of religious folk carrying out the will of Winter (I guess some people count as believers though, like that dude who fucked his daughters), Ice simply has chosen to embody itself in physical ice avatars.
Perhaps this is at the cost of being able to channel magic into ordinary beings, it has to channel its magic through its embodied form, like when white walkers resurrect dead people into zombies. That's a significantly worse version of the resurrection Lord of Light followers have access too, perhaps because the LoL can in addition to its own power draw upon the innate life force (or internal fire, passion) of its subjects as they cast the spell - which is why we get drastically improved resurrections. Or maybe ice is just antithetical to life, as it is usually not depicted as a crucial part of humanity (unlike fire, which has plenty of analogies in the nature of men)
I dunno how dragons play into this, as they seem to be embodiments of fire - avatars of the fire god. It seems like that would throw the balance in favour of the fire god, which is maybe why winter is coming - to kill as many men as possible so as to reduce the power the god of fire can possibly draw upon, and before the dragons grow up to become a threat.
...
That does seem to be the case, yeah?
Moff
Member
didnt tywin already tell the correct version of the story when he told arya about his father in harrenhal in season 2?
as you said yourself, I think fire is embodied through the dragons.
legions of others and wights burned down by the three dragons and an army led by dany and azor ahai (jon) is pretty much what we all expect to see in the last book, right? of course GRRM rarely delievers what the readers expect.
Saw this posted over at winteriscoming.net by Varamyr Fourskins: http://gameofthronesandnorsemythology.blogspot.com/2013/05/ragnarok-song-of-ice-fire.html.
It's a blog detailing the possible links between Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice & Fire and Norse Mythology. When I first saw it posted I thought not much of it, until others started commenting on how brilliant it is. After taking a few minutes to read through it, I gotta say, there's some really interesting stuff here.
Assuming he's right, there are potential spoilers for future books.
It's a blog detailing the possible links between Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice & Fire and Norse Mythology. When I first saw it posted I thought not much of it, until others started commenting on how brilliant it is. After taking a few minutes to read through it, I gotta say, there's some really interesting stuff here.
Assuming he's right, there are potential spoilers for future books.
accidentally landed on the first page instead of last-read today, got interested in what people were saying way back when, thought this was great:
so much theories of incest going down!
lolnope.
Anyway I'm coming up on the close of rereading DwD, it seems pretty clear Dany's going to be able to get preggers again.
Stuff about the Sun looks like Dorne/Martell.
Stuff about Sea looks like the Dothraki Sea, maybe related to scourging it with Drogon's fire.
I guess the mountains are supposed to be the pyramids of Meereen after Viserion and Rhaegal sack them?
The weird part is the conditional direction on the last bit: I figure Drogon returning could satisfy Drogo returning because of the namesake thing, but that doesn't make sense unless she'd already quickened and born a living child. I don't really see anything else she's done as satisfying the quickening and bearing a living child part, it's so literal about human bodies that being Mhysa to the slaves doesn't really fit.
It totally seems like she's menstruated at the end there, so I wonder if that means there's some Khal Drogo Returns thing coming up or what's the deal with the last part of the prophesy?
so much theories of incest going down!
lolnope.
Anyway I'm coming up on the close of rereading DwD, it seems pretty clear Dany's going to be able to get preggers again.
Mirri Maz Duur said:
Stuff about the Sun looks like Dorne/Martell.
Stuff about Sea looks like the Dothraki Sea, maybe related to scourging it with Drogon's fire.
I guess the mountains are supposed to be the pyramids of Meereen after Viserion and Rhaegal sack them?
The weird part is the conditional direction on the last bit: I figure Drogon returning could satisfy Drogo returning because of the namesake thing, but that doesn't make sense unless she'd already quickened and born a living child. I don't really see anything else she's done as satisfying the quickening and bearing a living child part, it's so literal about human bodies that being Mhysa to the slaves doesn't really fit.
It totally seems like she's menstruated at the end there, so I wonder if that means there's some Khal Drogo Returns thing coming up or what's the deal with the last part of the prophesy?
Moff
Member
I like this very much.
I dont think we can really predict any outcome though, because GRRM obviously mixed up a lot of things already, so we still dont really know where this is going. but the idea
of fire and ice not fighting each other but together to kill all men in westeros is really intriguing, and actually something we would expect from GRRM, because its not what he lets us expect.
really interesting but i think there is way to many jumps and assumptions i think there are obvious parallels and influences, but i think GRRM will not follow the legends and will tell his own tale tbh a lot of the prediction he makes are just observed and really wouldn't make sense in the context of the story, but its well worth a read
its an interesting twist for sure, but bran and jon leading the white walkers to kill all men doesn't really make a lot of sense imo
Kadayi
Banned
Westeros never miss an opportunity to flip a table. From a show perspective it makes zero sense to start talking about peoples great grandfathers as it's a name that isn't likely to come up again.
Moff
Member
I dont see a problem with bran. he's a child and doesnt have an own agenda, yet. bloodraven wont have any problems convincing him, whatever his intentions are.its an interesting twist for sure, but bran and jon leading the white walkers to kill all men doesn't really make a lot of sense imo
and - if jaime really is sigurd - it would also make total sense. the whole story was set in motion by an interaction between these two, and would probably end with them.
jon is a different matter, but he's dead and who knows what melisande will bring back to life. but she playing a double game would totally make sense to me, she creates shadow monsters and valar morghulis would make 100% sense. I like it.
Two episodes ago there was a scene in the throne room between Joffrey and Tywin in which Joffrey expressed concern about being "out of the loop" regarding Dany and her dragons. Tywin was dismissive of the threat, etc.
Was that scene direct from the book? I ask because it seemed really out of character for Tywin "leave absolutely nothing to chance" Lannister to be flippant about a surviving Targaryen with 3 dragons.
Was that scene direct from the book? I ask because it seemed really out of character for Tywin "leave absolutely nothing to chance" Lannister to be flippant about a surviving Targaryen with 3 dragons.
I don't recall the conversation in the books but I have only done a single read through.
Last Hearth
Member
The fact that this guy assumes the crackpot Jojen paste theory in order to make his point makes me question all of his theories.
Yes, I think there are some parallels to Norse mythology. But there are arguably much stronger parallels to the War of the Roses, and also some from LOTR. I don't think GRRM is drawing from a single source, so trying to predict future events strictly based on parallels to Norse mythology is absurd.
Yes, I think there are some parallels to Norse mythology. But there are arguably much stronger parallels to the War of the Roses, and also some from LOTR. I don't think GRRM is drawing from a single source, so trying to predict future events strictly based on parallels to Norse mythology is absurd.
I don't recall it in the book, but I took Tywin being flippant was more brushing off Joffrey than anything else.
He made a good argument though, from his point of view. The dragons that relatively recent history is familiar with were small and weak, and the dragons that conquered Westeros were absolutely gigantic. Since he knows Dany's dragons are still quite small, clearly he is receiving some measure of intel about the dragons' development. Then I believe he said that if matters were to change, he would take all necessary steps to defend the kingdom. So, while it's true that he's underestimating the threat the Dany will eventually pose, I think it's a wise enough move to focus on the war at hand.
And for all we know maybe Varys is giving him disinformation and painting the picture in Essos as if it's just a little girl with some winged lizards half away across the world. Nothing to be afraid of.
electroshockwave
Member
I remember a small council meeting in ASOS where Varys mentions sailors coming back from Qarth with rumours of a three headed dragon. I think Tywin didmisses it as being ludicrous, not because he thinks a Targaryen who has hatched dragons is nothing to worry about it.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
There is some weird misinformation in here that this guy needs to fix
ie
That's not how it works. Don't take the shows quotes as word of god when you have Jon Snow not even knowing he is a warg yet in the show.
Okay, here's a show theory I don't recall hearing before (not that I think it's remotely likely to happen):
What if the oft-maligned Talisa Maegyr was neither just who she says she is, nor a Lannister plant? What if, instead, she was one of the Sand Snakes operating under a pseudonym (most likely of her own devising, a la Sarella Sand, rather than some far-reaching plot by Doran Martell).
But which one? Well, the character says she's from Volantis and there's indications that she's of noble heritage, so how about Nymeria Sand. "Nymeria Sand is the bastard daughter of Oberyn Martell and a noblewoman from Volantis. She is the second oldest of the infamous Sand Snakes." <- that bolded detail seems so on the nose that I have to believe this theory has been broached before.
Flash forward to Season 4. The Red Viper, speaking to whomever has accompanied him, declaring his intent for vengeance against the Lannisters for the murders of both his dear sister and his daughter, a character we actually know as opposed to Elia Martell (someone the show hasn't even named as far as I remember). Or of course, Arianne or Doran Martell could detail it all in Season 5. Either way.
Okay, yeah, I don't think it has any chance of happening. But it just occurred to me and I'm surprised I've never heard someone else come up with the possibility, unless my memory has failed me.
What if the oft-maligned Talisa Maegyr was neither just who she says she is, nor a Lannister plant? What if, instead, she was one of the Sand Snakes operating under a pseudonym (most likely of her own devising, a la Sarella Sand, rather than some far-reaching plot by Doran Martell).
But which one? Well, the character says she's from Volantis and there's indications that she's of noble heritage, so how about Nymeria Sand. "Nymeria Sand is the bastard daughter of Oberyn Martell and a noblewoman from Volantis. She is the second oldest of the infamous Sand Snakes." <- that bolded detail seems so on the nose that I have to believe this theory has been broached before.
Flash forward to Season 4. The Red Viper, speaking to whomever has accompanied him, declaring his intent for vengeance against the Lannisters for the murders of both his dear sister and his daughter, a character we actually know as opposed to Elia Martell (someone the show hasn't even named as far as I remember). Or of course, Arianne or Doran Martell could detail it all in Season 5. Either way.
Okay, yeah, I don't think it has any chance of happening. But it just occurred to me and I'm surprised I've never heard someone else come up with the possibility, unless my memory has failed me.
The Iron Yuppie
Member
Still wondering if they'll ever say who "Coldhands" was. I was always hoping it would turn out to be Benjen Stark.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
It's clearly not Benjen since Leaf (who is a couple hundred years old) says he died a long time ago. My current theory is that Coldhands in the Night King.
Steelyuhas
Member
He was described has hooded and masked, but yeah based on what the Child of the Forest said it's not Benjen.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
nvm.
It is actually better that Cersei has it wrong. She thinks she is smarter than she is, so it is quite telling that she tells this while the actual account is completely different. It streamlines everything for non-book readers, it gives a bit of extra depth for us book reader.
Admiral Bone to Pick
Banned
I want to say that Martin is too good of a writer to simply drop a character like Benjen Stark, but my confidence in him as an author has dropped recently. I just can't imagine when Benjen would have been doing between the first book and Winds of Winter though.
Steelyuhas
Member
I still believe that Benjen has some part to play.
Basileus777
Member
There's not much he could have been doing if he was dead. Doing nothing with Benjen wouldn't be a knock on Martin's writing ability. Hell, it'd be nice if a character stayed dead for once.
Kadayi
Banned
Tywin's a pretty pragmatic individual. Even if the rumours of Dragons are true, he's likely aware that they're not fully grown and more importantly a very very long way from Westeros, where as Robb Stark & Stannis are still very much at hand.
Seconded, the amount of false peril in ADWD was tedious (fully expect Jon Snow to be brought back in TWoW though).
This is really something else. Like, it's uncomfortably accurate right now. I'm sure there's something missing here.
Basileus777
Member
This is kind of amusing, but there's no real spoiler potential here. The odds of GRRM deliberately writing a Norse mythology allegory are 0%. Some of these reaches are laughable if you try to imagine GRRM putting them in intentionally.
Whoa, mind blown. If he's on the right track we're in store for some major twists.
Pattern recognition. Look at anything close enough and you start to see mysterious connections.
Boom Boom Pow
Banned
which is what?
Memento Mori
Member
Jojen died or was murdered by the Children of the forest and fed to Bran in the form of red paste to boost his powers or whatever.
Eh, Benjen was used to spark Jons desire to join the Nights Watch and then again his disappearance was used to spark the great ranging beyond the Wall. He was just a walking, talking plot device.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Yeah, he's being quite liberal with a lot of those interpretations.
Such as, the Norse mythological story revolving around non-human powers fighting one another and humanity falling & rising as a result of the process - yet he's equating the various non-human powers with regular humans in the show, which makes no sense as the equivalent would clearly be the non-human powers we have seen on the show.
He does this in order to strengthen the similarities, as you'd otherwise not get a 1-to-1 analogy - just a general similarity (dragons/fire vs white walkers/ice is akin to Norse gods vs Frost giants).
I only posted that as more of an interest in that Elio was saying that GRRM had told them more of the story for A World of Ice and Fire, so hopefully we get more of it. But yeah, it's funny about Cersei being an idiot but I imagine that it's lost on the viewers, they'll probably think she was telling an accurate version of the story and won't realise she's a dumbass.
I don't care if that Norse theory is wrong, I would love to see it happen, sounds awesome.
Chuck Norris
Banned
toddhunter
Member
This makes sense if Jojen was actually a Targaryen. Let's start a theory.
Memento Mori
Member
Jojen is both Howland Reed and a Blackfyre.
IIRC Bran thinks the paste tastes metallic which is where this theory comes from.
IIRC Bran thinks the paste tastes metallic which is where this theory comes from.
Basileus777
Member
Do crannogmen taste metallic when put into paste form?
So you are saying that Howland Reed and Rhaaegar switched places, then Rhaegar saved Ned to help him foster his child while Howland Reed died controlled by ancient magic posing as Rhaegar?
Wait... it's all starting to make sense........
Basileus777
Member
Howand Reed is actually Ashara Dayne, and the Reeds are Ned's bastard children. Bran is going to go berserk and join the Others once he realizes he ate his half-sibling and is lusting after another.
toddhunter
Member
No, I'm saying Jon was Ned's son as they have been saying all along. Only Ned was actually Rhaegar, which is why Catelyn hated Jon so much. This was because he was a constant reminder that she knew Ned wasn't her husband and she wanted to get with Brandon Stark, who is living as Howland Reed to avoid her, because she is the only women in Westeros who isn't hot.
I don't think this makes sense because of the timelines. It is much more likely that he would be Dumbeldore, which would explain why he never really seemed focused on what was going on around him and left it to the kids
John Dunbar
correct about everything
The theory really comes from the whole atmosphere of the chapter. The constant mentions that the moon is thin as a knife, Jojen's remark that it is not Bran that needs to be afraid, the taste of the paste, the Children's choice of decor (I don't care that they're not people, having your home littered with bones should instantly set off some warning bells), and a lot of little things I don't remember off the top of my head. I recommend everyone rereading the chapter if they didn't pick up on all of this. I don't necessarily believe they made Bran eat Jojen, but something sinister definitely seems to be going on with the Children. Whatever it is, it's probably some of the best writing in the series.
Ah, damn, you're right!
Memento Mori
Member
Blood tastes metallic.
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