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[Rimfya]

Finally finished it. I'm not the most astute reader but I have a theory.

R'hllor has power, but the prophecies are just power fantasies. Red Priests simply tell men what they want to hear. Sure men can be raised from the dead, or assassinated one by one. But has he proven himself to anyone when it comes to their destiny? I believe Stannis and Victarion are just being told what they want to hear as an encouragement to persue their own goals.

But then, closer readers may be able to refute that idea!

Also: The worst thing you can do in any fictional story is bring back people from the dead. I don't ever care about a single character death ever anymore. Meh.

 

[Blatz]

Also: The worst thing you can do in any fictional story is bring back people from the dead. I don't ever care about a single character death ever anymore. Meh.

Yes, this. I really hope this is the last character that gets this treatment. Although I wouldn't be surprised if GRRM puts an interesting twist on it that makes it not so "meh".

 

[Tacitus_]

Finally finished it. I'm not the most astute reader but I have a theory.

R'hllor has power, but the prophecies are just power fantasies. Red Priests simply tell men what they want to hear. Sure men can be raised from the dead, or assassinated one by one. But has he proven himself to anyone when it comes to their destiny? I believe Stannis and Victarion are just being told what they want to hear as an encouragement to persue their own goals.

No, I'm fairly sure that they see something in the fires. Melisandre's own POV chapter confirms this - and it also confirms that she's terrible at interpreting said visions.

 

[Lirlond]

Doing a combined reread of Feast / Dance and I have to say that if every last one of the Dorne chapters up until the Frog/Quentyn reveal were excised, the story would have lost nothing.

Seriously, apart from that fangirl bait Darkstar trying to kill Myrcella, literally nothing of importance happened in Dorne that couldn't have waited for TWoW in a much more succinct form. It could have gone like this:

Dorne 1: Arianne, Darkstar and the Sand Snakes make off with Myrcella. Arys Oakheart feels bad about forsaking his vows, but ZOMG ARIANNE IS SO DAMN FINE, so whatevs. They get caught, Arys dies, Darkstar turns on Myrcella.

Dorne 2: Balon Swann shows up with the fake Gregor skull. Arianne and the Sand Snakes get let out for the feast, afterward, Doran tells them about his secret plans.

BAM!

The Dorne story is all set up.

I liked Dorans chapters though, it really gives him character.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Doing a combined reread of Feast / Dance and I have to say that if every last one of the Dorne chapters up until the Frog/Quentyn reveal were excised, the story would have lost nothing.

Seriously, apart from that fangirl bait Darkstar trying to kill Myrcella, literally nothing of importance happened in Dorne that couldn't have waited for TWoW in a much more succinct form. It could have gone like this:

Dorne 1: Arianne, Darkstar and the Sand Snakes make off with Myrcella. Arys Oakheart feels bad about forsaking his vows, but ZOMG ARIANNE IS SO DAMN FINE, so whatevs. They get caught, Arys dies, Darkstar turns on Myrcella.

Dorne 2: Balon Swann shows up with the fake Gregor skull. Arianne and the Sand Snakes get let out for the feast, afterward, Doran tells them about his secret plans.

BAM!

The Dorne story is all set up.

Dorne has a total of four chapters in AFFC, which isn't a lot by any measure; that arc is told quite quickly and covers a lot of ground in those chapters. Personally I loved Hotah's chapter due to it introducing us to Doran, one of the most interesting characters in the series IMO. The only chapter I would agree could be taken out is Oakheart's, but IMO it was still interesting as the first non-Jaime Kingsguard POV; it also further built up the Oakheart v Hotah fight.

I would argue the POV that slows down AFFC is Brienne's. Eight chapters, which is the second highest in the novel, and half could have been condensed. It features some great moments like our introduction to Randyl Tarly, the Brave Companions reveal, the kindly septon's broken men monologue, Gendry being badass, and Lady Stoneheart - but IMO it could have been four chapters.

 

[Ingeniero]

I like Stannis in some ways, but I think the last thing the seven kingdoms need is another king who burns people alive.

That would be Daenerys.

Stannis is the man, the rightful king.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

The POV chapters I really couldn't stand in AFFC were Cersei's.

Unlike Jamie, there's no depth underneath the villain we already know

The Maggy the Frog thing is really, really off-tone for the book

They are trite as all get out leading to her fall.

Once she's in jail, it gets better.

 

[Basileus777]

Maggy the Frog is the worst thing GRRM has ever written.

 

[Wh0 N0se]

guys there has never been such a thing as "better" claims to anything in this whole damn series. you keep what you kill.

You pay the Iron Price!

 

[tmdorsey]

Speaking of Cersei, I think I'm going to be pretty upset if she's placed back in a position of power after Kevan's death. It just wouldn't make sense to me that she could be respected and followed after the Walk of Shame and even with everything that came out during the trial.

 

[Jayof9s]

Doing a combined reread of Feast / Dance and I have to say that if every last one of the Dorne chapters up until the Frog/Quentyn reveal were excised, the story would have lost nothing.

Seriously, apart from that fangirl bait Darkstar trying to kill Myrcella, literally nothing of importance happened in Dorne that couldn't have waited for TWoW in a much more succinct form. It could have gone like this:

Dorne 1: Arianne, Darkstar and the Sand Snakes make off with Myrcella. Arys Oakheart feels bad about forsaking his vows, but ZOMG ARIANNE IS SO DAMN FINE, so whatevs. They get caught, Arys dies, Darkstar turns on Myrcella.

Dorne 2: Balon Swann shows up with the fake Gregor skull. Arianne and the Sand Snakes get let out for the feast, afterward, Doran tells them about his secret plans.

BAM!

The Dorne story is all set up.

I'd go even further and say we didn't even need the Quentyn chapters. The first time we should have seen him was when he met Dany, from her perspective. And then we could have found out about his death from a Selmy chapter and nothing of value would have been lost. Sure, his death wouldn't have had any impact, but I don't think it had any impact as it was written.

Martin seems to have forgotten how to skip to important events in character's stories in AFFC/ADWD (as well as adding a bunch of 1-2 shot POVs). I don't hate either book (mostly because I didn't have to wait 5 and then 6 years for them) but not much gets accomplished and there were a lot of meandering chapters that didn't have any real meat to them. I'm rereading the series now and the writing was a lot 'cleaner' in the earlier books. He was willing to jump weeks/months and didn't feel the need to give an as it happened perspective of every tiny event. If he had written AGOT the way he wrote AFFC/ADWD, we'd have had two dozen chapters covering the journey from Winterfell to King's Landing with nothing more interesting added to the story (as one example).

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I remain a defender of Quentyn chapters. It's a dead end, but an entertaining one which also serves to show how lots of plans in this series never come to fruition.

 

[CrashBandicoot]

Maggy the Frog is the worst thing GRRM has ever written.

I totally forgot about her... Maybe its just because nobody cares what might happen to Cersei so all prophecies involving her are dull?

I like the idea that Tyrion the valonqar will be back to kill her though.

 

[Jayof9s]

I remain a defender of Quentyn chapters. It's a dead end, but an entertaining one which also serves to show how lots of plans in this series never come to fruition.

His chapters didn't give me much to connect to so when he ultimately died, I was just happy to know his POV had ended. Of course your mileage may vary and I guess I'm glad someone liked those chapters.

Pretty much every time we got a new POV I was asking myself "Who is this and why should I care?" and usually the 'why should I care' part came up pretty thin to me.

Once again, I didn't hate the books like a lot of people but they could have been written a lot cleaner and as a result advanced the plot much further.

I totally forgot about her... Maybe its just because nobody cares what might happen to Cersei so all prophecies involving her are dull?

I like the idea that Tyrion the valonqar will be back to kill her though.

I actually always assumed Jamie was going to end up being the valonqar. Tyrion seems too much of an obvious choice and it would be a lot more biting for the betrayal to come from Jamie. I also think we're seeing support for it when Jamie finally got back to King's Landing and started to realize how toxic Cersei really is.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Cersei has the best chapters in AFFC imo (with Jaime in second). To me one of the biggest themes/plots of AFFC and ADWD revolve around leadership. You see three people ruling in three entirely different environments: Cersei as queen in King's Landing, Dany as queen in Mereen, and Jon as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Cersei makes some impressive moves in AFFC but overall rules in a chaotic, ineffective manner and is toppled by her own hands. Dany blindly mishandles sectarian strife during occupational rule before being betrayed. Meanwhile Jon isolates himself at the very moment he needs the most support: uniting two enemies (Night's Watch, wildlings) against a common threat, only to be betrayed by the enemies surrounding him.

All three rulers fall from grace spectacularly and are reborn from the ashes - the walk of shame for Cersei, Drogon's literal flames (and perhaps a miscarriage) for Dany, and "death" for Jon. The brief glimpse of Cersei in ADWD's epilogue suggests either a tamed Cersei, or perhaps a smarter/more dangerous one. Dany's last chapter seems to suggest she has finally realized she is a conqueror, not a politician. Meanwhile we don't know what Jon's rebirth will manifest as.

 

[Tacitus_]

The POV chapters I really couldn't stand in AFFC were Cersei's.

Unlike Jamie, there's no depth underneath the villain we already know

The Maggy the Frog thing is really, really off-tone for the book

They are trite as all get out leading to her fall.

Once she's in jail, it gets better.

Cerseis chapters were some of the best in AFFC. She was hilariously deranged and it was extremely enjoyable seeing her paranoid ramblings and how she told herself how right she was, how she was a female Tywin and then at the end, how it completely fell apart. Delicious.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I disagree? I thought that just about every other character was well fleshed out in their own POVs, but Cersei became even more of a caricature.

One of the things I like about the show is that they've made her much more 3D.

 

[timetokill]

I loved every one of the Dorne chapters and look forward to more. They're certainly better than the Dany or late Tyrion chapters.

 

[CrashBandicoot]

I liked Dorne, but to be honest I found it kind of hard to keep track of all the characters that were kind of just thrown at you

 

[The Elite]

I liked Dorne, but to be honest I found it kind of hard to keep track of all the characters that were kind of just thrown at you

The Dorne chapters sort of came out of left field for me. I'm still not sure if I have all the characters sorted in my head. I am curious to see where it's all going though.

 

[ZeroRay]

A little preview for Sunday:

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/05/a-read-of-ice-and-fire-a-storm-of-swords-part-30

 

[Steelyuhas]

I liked Dorne, but to be honest I found it kind of hard to keep track of all the characters that were kind of just thrown at you

The Dorne chapters sort of came out of left field for me. I'm still not sure if I have all the characters sorted in my head. I am curious to see where it's all going though.

Yeah I just started my chronological reading of AFFC and ADWD and the first Dorne chapter introduces what appears at the time to be SIX new important characters (Doran, Arianne, 3 Sand Snakes, and the Captain himself) and being like yeah so Dorne is important now!

A little preview for Sunday:

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/05/a-read-of-ice-and-fire-a-storm-of-swords-part-30

Oh shit those reactions are amazing, pretty similar to mine at the time to be honest.

 

[Wh0 N0se]

So it seem the one thing we can agree on is that everyone likes different things.

For the record:
I liked Cersei's chapters in AFFC
Dislike ADWD Dany chapters
Loved Theons ADWD
Like Dorne
Disappointed with Quentyn's
Enjoyed Jon and the Wall

 

[Crisco]

I personally enjoyed AFFC and ADWD, but I can understand the hate. It was a whole lot of nothing for a 5 year wait followed by a 6 year wait. Having read all the books back to back about a year ago, it was much more enjoyable.

 

[suzu]

I liked ADWD for the most part, but there was stuff I didn't like.

Mainly felt that Dany's and Tyrion's chapters were a real disappoint. Quentyn was kinda boring and that ending... lol.

Other than that, I can't remember what else. I liked it better than AFFC, but I should probably do a reread of the entire series again.

 

[badcrumble]

Cersei has the best chapters in AFFC imo (with Jaime in second). To me one of the biggest themes/plots of AFFC and ADWD revolve around leadership. You see three people ruling in three entirely different environments: Cersei as queen in King's Landing, Dany as queen in Mereen, and Jon as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Cersei makes some impressive moves in AFFC but overall rules in a chaotic, ineffective manner and is toppled by her own hands. Dany blindly mishandles sectarian strife during occupational rule before being betrayed. Meanwhile Jon isolates himself at the very moment he needs the most support: uniting two enemies (Night's Watch, wildlings) against a common threat, only to be betrayed by the enemies surrounding him.

All three rulers fall from grace spectacularly and are reborn from the ashes - the walk of shame for Cersei, Drogon's literal flames (and perhaps a miscarriage) for Dany, and "death" for Jon. The brief glimpse of Cersei in ADWD's epilogue suggests either a tamed Cersei, or perhaps a smarter/more dangerous one. Dany's last chapter seems to suggest she has finally realized she is a conqueror, not a politician. Meanwhile we don't know what Jon's rebirth will manifest as.

Remind me what happens to her with ADWD's epilogue?

 

[TripOpt55]

I definitely had some things go over my head and realized after reading this thread (didn't pick up on Jaqen being in Oldtown or the thing with the pies in ADWD).

I liked the idea of having more action in the East, but it really wasn't executed well. For reasons you guys have said a thousand times here. Would have been cool if more of them actually met up and then more happened after that. Tyrion and Dany should have met. Victarion should have arrived. I think they could have sped up a lot of the stuff in between and gotten that to happen plus the battles by book's end. Then Dany could just work on getting to Westeros next book and that could be on its way. I do like that Aegon did go to Westeros.

I liked the stuff up North with both Jon and Theon. Don't think Jon is dead which I guess seems obvious. I don't really love the Arya stuff in Bravos compared to the first three books with her, but it was still good. I liked learning about Dorne and meeting some of those characters too in the later books. I didn't really mind Quentin dying... haha.

Overall I still liked ADWD more than AFFC. I also enjoyed them more than most it seems, but just read them all through in a short period of time, so didn't have the wait adding to the disappointment.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Remind me what happens to her with ADWD's epilogue?

Kevan notes how tame she has been since the walk of shame, and at one point she mentions that she prays with her septas constantly. I seriously doubt she's religious now, and when she becomes regent again I have a feeling she'll be more effective and deceptive than before.

 

[Tacitus_]

Kevan notes how tame she has been since the walk of shame, and at one point she mentions that she prays with her septas constantly. I seriously doubt she's religious now, and when she becomes regent again I have a feeling she'll be more effective and deceptive than before.

She's so faking it.

 

[Snake]

the walk of shame

The real shame is that there's no way Lena Headey will agree to do this in Season 5/6.

 

[CrashBandicoot]

So it seem the one thing we can agree on is that everyone likes different things.

For the record:
I liked Cersei's chapters in AFFC
Dislike ADWD Dany chapters
Loved Theons ADWD
Like Dorne
Disappointed with Quentyn's
Enjoyed Jon and the Wall

I'm fairly similar, except I was kind of bored by Cersei's repetition - but obviously that's important to show how delusional she is and all that - and I loved Jon's stuff more than anything else.


Does anyone know if GRRM has been asked how the next book's getting along recently? Maybe at one of the many, many conventions he attends

 

[Ape Gone Insane]

There's 2 threads for the show (book reader/non-book reader) and this unmarked thread for the book series.

This is probably the wrong place to ask but do you think it may be a good idea to have a thread for first time readers? I imagine there are a lot of people wanting to jump into the books but have no real place to discuss them properly without being spoiled about future books.

Was thinking you could have a read along, so 1 or 2 chapters every day.

 

[Ape Gone Insane]

Does anyone know if GRRM has been asked how the next book's getting along recently? Maybe at one of the many, many conventions he attends

25% of the way through, according to an interview a couple of weeks/month or two ago.

 

[Angry Grimace]

25% of the way through, according to an interview a couple of weeks/month or two ago.

So he's going to be doing 12.5% of the book per year? :lol

 

[Boom Boom Pow]

The real shame is that there's no way Lena Headey will agree to do this in Season 5/6.

u don't think she'll go tpoless?

 

[Trasher]

u don't think she'll go tpoless?

Isn't she still broke as fuck? She should be down for doing anything! Even shaving her head!

I doubt she will do any of that stuff though haha.

 

[Tacitus_]

So he's going to be doing 12.5% of the book per year? :lol

Bunch of that stuff is cut content from ADWD as well :|

 

[CrashBandicoot]

Wow, there must be some huge plot holes he needs to worm out of or something

 

[Jayof9s]

Wow, there must be some huge plot holes he needs to worm out of or something

From the amount of other things he does and is working on and from what I've heard of his writing process, I expect anyone that thinks they'll be reading TWOW before 2018 is going to be disappointed.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Isn't she still broke as fuck? She should be down for doing anything! Even shaving her head!

I doubt she will do any of that stuff though haha.

Well the head thing is not an issue, the can bald cap her/put a short hair wig on top.

 

[Trasher]

Well the head thing is not an issue, the can bald cap her/put a short hair wig on top.

It's an issue dammit. Bald caps are the worst!

 

[Angry Grimace]

The real shame is that there's no way Lena Headey will agree to do this in Season 5/6.

Didn't I see her getting nailed more than once in 300?

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

The real shame is that there's no way Lena Headey will agree to do this in Season 5/6.

Maybe they can get Emilia Clarke as a stunt butt for that scene.

 

[Steelyuhas]

It's an issue dammit. Bald caps are the worst!

Yeah they can be pretty bad on women if they have a ton of hair.

Lena has kept her hair pretty short at times though, so it might not be that big of a deal.

Didn't I see her getting nailed more than once in 300?

I know she was in the more than this, but the only scene I remember her in from that film is in the field at the end.

 

[Trasher]

Didn't I see her getting nailed more than once in 300?

For some reason I'm recalling that people said that wasn't actually her in those nude scenes.

Edit: Nm. Just checked. Was definitely her. Haven't seen that movie in forever though. I dunno why I thought that. Maybe I'm thinking of someone else.

Edit 2: Was probably thinking of them using the stunt double for her in season one/episode one.

 

[tirminyl]

From the amount of other things he does and is working on and from what I've heard of his writing process, I expect anyone that thinks they'll be reading ATOW before 2018 is going to be disappointed.

Don't destroy my hope.

 

[exYle]

From the amount of other things he does and is working on and from what I've heard of his writing process, I expect anyone that thinks they'll be reading ATOW before 2018 is going to be disappointed.

A Time... of... Winter?

 

[A More Normal Bird]

A Time... of... Winter?

A Trance of Wagons. It's mostly going to be Bran warging into pack mules and exploring the logistics of the major military movements in the series so far.

 

[ezrarh]

I found an interesting criticism of George Martin (don't know if it has been posted):

http://www.iswintercoming.com/ramsay-martin-t1465.html

It essentially states that Martin enjoys breaking characters down more so than building them up. That's why he's taken so long to finish the series because the only trajectory is to go up from here on out and he doesn't enjoy that.

I want to say I disagree with the guy's critique but I can't.

 

[aFIGurANT]

I buy the above link's thesis when it comes to ADWD but not so much with AFFC, for whatever reason. I do agree that the series has never really recovered that sense of awe and anticipation since the third book but that's more just because too many new characters were introduced. Some of them work and some don't (Jaime and the Dornish horde respectively) but yeah; the problem is a lack of forward movement in the last two books. A lot of fantasy series probably experience similar doldrums though.