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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

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The guy found out that the girl he raped was just his wife and never a whore paid to seduce him. Then he goes on to murder a prostitute and kill his father. It left him unhinged. There's nothing rational about his thoughts on anything related to Tysha.
 
That was one of Tyrions character defining moments and then he learns it was a lie and the one person he thought he could trust was a part of it.

As I said, I completely understand turning on a dime and hating Jaime after the revelation. But wanting him dead is irrational. Killing Tywin and wanting to kill Cersei is relatively understandable in a fictional sense. Between the two of them they tried to have him killed and generally did terrible things to him his whole life. But Jaime...No. Hate him yes I can follow that even if I disagree with it. Wanting Jaime dead however I can't go along with.
 

Aiii

So not worth it
As I said, I completely understand turning on a dime and hating Jaime after the revelation. But wanting him dead is irrational. Killing Tywin and wanting to kill Cersei is relatively understandable in a fictional sense. Between the two of them they tried to have him killed and generally did terrible things to him his whole life. But Jaime...No. Hate him yes I can follow that even if I disagree with it. Wanting Jaime dead however I can't go along with.

IIRC Jaime told his father about his wife and thus initiated that whole chain of events. In Tyrion's mind he is as much to blame as Tywin.
 

tmdorsey

Member
A discussion going on in the tagged spoilers thread about Rhaegar and Lyanna got me wondering something. Are we to assume that Lyanna was kidnapped/runaway by/with Rhaegar the entire time she was pregnant? I guess it makes sense because it would seem strange that no one would have mentioned anything about her being pregnant.
 

Aiii

So not worth it
Wide clothing and avoiding public appearances could have concealed her pregnancy for a good six or seven months to the general public.
 
She could have been pregnant for a couple months without it being physically visible; some women can go 12 weeks without the bump showing. I'd imagine Rhaegar "abducted" her when he learned she was pregnant, and the plan was to have the child in a safe place. Maybe they were heading somewhere else, perhaps Dorne, but stopped there due to complications; all that riding must have been horrible on her health.

I wonder how Dorne would have reacted if Rhaegar had managed to make it into the country with another woman, after leaving Doran's sister to die in the capital; that's a harsh assessment obviously, but someone in Dorne might have felt that way.
 
Well it is the song of Ice and Fire, so I think a duality is implied, and we know that flames come in many colors (green wildfire, black dragonbreath, etc). What happened in the Varys scene you're referring to? I spend most of my time watching the TV series bitching about minor changes and how they totally ruin characters/story arcs so it's hard to remember the details.

He referred to a Blue(?) flame in which he heard a voice emit from.
 
The guy found out that the girl he raped was just his wife and never a whore paid to seduce him. Then he goes on to murder a prostitute and kill his father. It left him unhinged. There's nothing rational about his thoughts on anything related to Tysha.
Yes but the Jaime revelation did indeed lead to him hating his brother, the one person left who he thought loved him. His reaction was unhinged but also made sense.

It's why I don't get the complaints that people have about ADWD "emo" Tyrion. He is in a deep depression and emotional shock through the first half of his arc, and doesn't truly start rehabbing until he meets Penny. Fans praise the series for having realistic characters, then demand an unrealistic Tyrion to magically appear after emotional damage, as if this is some super hero comic book where the last issue's events don't matter. He's a complex character, not a card board cut out.
 

Joni

Member
A discussion going on in the tagged spoilers thread about Rhaegar and Lyanna got me wondering something. Are we to assume that Lyanna was kidnapped/runaway by/with Rhaegar the entire time she was pregnant? I guess it makes sense because it would seem strange that no one would have mentioned anything about her being pregnant.
I doubt she was even pregnant when she 'kidnapped'. The rebellion lasted two years according to the Ice and Fire wiki, the battle at the Tower of Joy was in the final stages of it and the Mad King already killed Brandon Stark before the rebellion started.
 

suzu

Member
I think also people don't like seeing Tyrion hating on Jaime because they like both characters. lol. Well, at least that is how I feel about it. :p Tyrion's state of mind right now is understandable though.
 
About to start a reading of AFFC and ADWD in chronological order. Pretty excited to read it this way. I'll get a small grasp of the shit storm of impossibility this will be to adapt to the TV show.

I think also people don't like seeing Tyrion hating on Jaime because they like both characters. lol. Well, at least that is how I feel about it. :p Tyrion's state of mind right now is understandable though.

Yeah that's what it is for a lot of people (myself included). It sucks to see two characters you like, and those two characters having a genuine bond and friendship, and having that ripped apart. That was tough to have happen to the audience for both Tyrion and Jaime.
 
I think also people don't like seeing Tyrion hating on Jaime because they like both characters. lol. Well, at least that is how I feel about it. :p

Haha so true, same reason I don't like Catelyn, leave my bro Jon alone bitch. I think I was alone in liking the tv scene where she talked about how horrible she felt about how she treated Jon.
 
Yes but the Jaime revelation did indeed lead to him hating his brother, the one person left who he thought loved him. His reaction was unhinged but also made sense.

It's why I don't get the complaints that people have about ADWD "emo" Tyrion. He is in a deep depression and emotional shock through the first half of his arc, and doesn't truly start rehabbing until he meets Penny. Fans praise the series for having realistic characters, then demand an unrealistic Tyrion to magically appear after emotional damage, as if this is some super hero comic book where the last issue's events don't matter. He's a complex character, not a card board cut out.

Realism is nice, but it doesn't mean I want to wade through a hundred odd pages of Tyrion being a repetitive bore.
 
Funny, for all my problems with the last couple of books, I liked the Tyrion bits perhaps the best.

I guess that is the problem with getting lots of fans, they are all crazy in different ways ;)
 
Wow. Finished ADWD. Very disappointing. If this were a chess game it would be the equivalent of a few pawns moved and maybe a knight being captured. Martin has great skill as a writer, but goddamn the PACE. Daenerys sitting in Merreen for almost the entire book? Seriously? And you called it a Dance with Dragons??

Reek/Theon was my favorite part of ADWD. The rest was mostly shit.

Also, I'm ashamed to say that until ADWD I thought "Damphair" was pronounced "damfair" and not "damp hair". Then it suddenly dawned on me that he was a Greyjoy. Duh.

Thinking back, I really wish Jon had accepted Stannis' offer of Winterfell. I understand how as a Stark there's no way he would ditch the Night's Watch for anything but man, I would have loved him to be Lord of Winterfell... And still be alive :( Cos even though everyone seems to think he'll pull through, I don't want even like a 10% chance that he'll be dead.

The way GRRM has people cheating death lately he may still be alive. Who the hell knows? Ever since the RW it seems to me he has played chicken with writing big characters out. Tywin notwithstanding.
 
Can someone explain to me exactly what it was that killed Joffery? It had something to do with Sansa's hair clip or something, right? A full explanation of who it was and what did it would be nice, that was a bit cloudy for me.
 
Can someone explain to me exactly what it was that killed Joffery? It had something to do with Sansa's hair clip or something, right? A full explanation of who it was and what did it would be nice, that was a bit cloudy for me.

Poison, hidden in Sansa's hairpiece, I think put into the drink by Margary's grandmother.
 
There is no chance Jon's dead. GRR's too proud of his little Jon Targaryen set up to just let that slide.

I still have this sick feeling he is going to pull a swerve JUST BECAUSE people have figured it out.

I hope he is better than that, because he should be proud. When I first read it my mind blew.
 
Elio said he read Jon's last ADWD chapter around 2001-2002, so Martin clearly didn't change things due to folks guessing his parentage. Perhaps it just doesn't mean as much to Martin's narrative as it does to Jon fanboys. If Jon is indeed dead and revived by dark magic, that would likely make him an outcast to the Watch and much of the North. It's hard for me to believe that he'll simply be brought back to life and eventually be crowned a Targaryen king or something.

Or maybe it just means he'll be one of the three heads of the dragon. I simply don't believe that Jon will become the rightful heir of anything, including the North, if he's "dead." Now of course if he's simply grievously injured and healed Victarion-style, who knows.
 

Tacitus_

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";59600677]Who would be the new POV character in the north anyway?[/QUOTE]

GURM said that there would be no new POV characters. Sams gone, so... Melisandre?
 
Can someone explain to me exactly what it was that killed Joffery? It had something to do with Sansa's hair clip or something, right? A full explanation of who it was and what did it would be nice, that was a bit cloudy for me.

One (or maybe all?) of the decorative gems in Sansa's hairnet was a deadly rare poison, the same kind that Melisandre resisted when Stannis' maester tried to poison her. (Sansa had no idea.) I forget if it's explicitly stated or heavily implied that Granny Tyrell plucks one of them out as she's fixing Sansa's net and drops it in Joffrey's drink.


Also, I really wish episode 9 aired this week. The show thread is holding it together in blissful ignorance so far but I hope it can stand another week.
 
some cool notes from a convention GRRM was at in Kansas City over the weekend

TotH - ConQuesT 44 report: George R. R. Martin notes

Editor's note: George R. R. Martin attended ConQuesT 44 this weekend in Kansas City and participated in two panel discussions. Pharout attended both sessions and she has kindly shared with us her reports. Below are some notes and other goodies from her reports about GRRM's ConQuesT panels.

Before/after the reading and a brief Q&A

Saturday, May 25, 2013

As mentioned, the reading is from the upcoming The World of Ice and Fire book. Recently, this was reported as being delayed till Fall 2014. George said it would be out "next spring." Grain of Salt . . .

For this book, he was supposed to write 50,000 words - he wrote 250,000. The extras have been put in a file for a project they are now calling the "GRRM - arillion." Way down the road.

The premise of the "World" book is that it is a copy of a tome presented to Robert just after the Rebellion. The "article" he read was written by a Maester Glyndon. Glyndon distilled his work from three other accounts of the conquest: one from a septon, one from a Grand Maester, and one from "The Tales of Mushroom" a court fool. George actually wrote all three of these pieces as well.

"The Princess and the Queen" is a tale of the Dance of the Dragons that will appear in the anthology Dangerous Women. He turned in 80,000 words, which was edited down to 30,000.

He would like to do 5 or 6 more Dunk and Egg stories. The first 3 are to be released as a collection next spring.

Walder Frey is the annoying little kid in "The Mystery Knight."

Varys' little birds do have their tongues cut out. They are "provided to him" that way.

---

"90 minutes with GRRM" and another brief Q&A

Sunday, May 26, 2013

The program had basically no description for this session. As I was waiting, I overheard a small group asking a Con volunteer what was up. His reply was, "We give him a microphone and see what happens."

As it turns out there really was a plan. We watched Season 2, Epsiode 9 of Game of Thrones together with his comments and anecdotes.

As you'll remember this was "Blackwater" and George had the writing credit for it. It has been nominated for a Hugo, in the Drama, Short Form category.

  • George gave high praise to director Neil Marshall, who "came to their rescue" only about a week before shooting because of a death in the original director's family. Neil's background is in feature films of the action genre, and this was his first experience with TV. George reported that he often said, "Can't we add . . .?" in places they are used to hearing "We can't fit that in."
  • The chain was out before he even started writing the episode, and the antler men were cut after an early draft. The logistics of needing both horses and fire meant that they cut out a lot of the horse scenes. He jokes that they briefly considered using coconuts . . .
  • They had only one boat to use as a set.
  • The battle plan was greatly simplified. He referred to one of the cut characters, Imry Florent, as a "highborn idiot."
  • The "Rains of Castamere" scene in the tavern with Bronn and the Hound was written/added by D&D.
  • The actor who plays Podrick Payne is actually the son of Ron Donachie, who played Rodrik Cassel.
  • At one point he stopped the video to commend the sound direction. George says he strives to be able to immerse the reader in the story, and to do that you must engage all their senses, and he finds sound to be the most difficult to do.
  • We also had a long break for George to talk about his pet peeve of the actors not wearing helmets. This goes back to his The Twilight Zone days in which a stunt man lost a piece of his nose after a choreography slip because the director wanted the main character to be visorless. Sound familiar? We know that Tyrion got a sword to the face after lifting his visor in the course of battle. George actually wrote a scene(s) in which Joffrey lifted his visor, and Tyrion ordered him to put it back down.
  • Of all the horrible scenes that Sophie Turner has had to do in her short career (near rape, being beaten and stripped, etc.) she was most terrified of singing the "Fairest Mother, font of mercy" hymn.

And from the Q&A:

  • Auditions are being held now for season 4 - including the Magnar, Mace Tyrell and OBERYN MARTELL!!
  • An audience member asked, "What did Podrick do?" George looked a little confused as he was still in Blackwater mode and said it was pretty obvious that "he stabbed him with a spear." As the question was clarified to relate to the Season 3 events his reply was "he stabbed 'em with a spear."
  • A question came up about the Red Wedding, and if he expected the same outcry as with Ned's death. George was pretty noncommittal, but Paris added something about accommodations in Antarctica.
  • Another audience member asked whether George had rock or ice climbing experience, because he thought those scenes were pretty realistic. George admits to climbing stairs, but only if there isn't an elevator. He credits his British editor as his expert and adviser for this.

ConQuesT 44 report: Aegon's Conquest reading

Spoilers for some of World of Ice and Fire I guess.
 

Massa

Member
some cool notes from a convention GRRM was at in Kansas City over the weekend

TotH - ConQuesT 44 report: George R. R. Martin notes

ConQuesT 44 report: Aegon's Conquest reading

Spoilers for some of World of Ice and Fire I guess.

An audience member asked, "What did Podrick do?" George looked a little confused as he was still in Blackwater mode and said it was pretty obvious that "he stabbed him with a spear." As the question was clarified to relate to the Season 3 events his reply was "he stabbed 'em with a spear."

Heh.
 

ZeroRay

Member
For this book, he was supposed to write 50,000 words - he wrote 250,000.

GRRM putting in work.

I think the major reason the books take so long is because of all the threads George has to keep track of. Writing fake history in comparison would be relative easy as long as it doesn't mess with anything in the main series.
 

chiQ

Member
Also, I'm ashamed to say that until ADWD I thought "Damphair" was pronounced "damfair" and not "damp hair". Then it suddenly dawned on me that he was a Greyjoy. Duh.

That's one of my bugbears with the audio books...well, the opposite. I read it as Damp Hair and Dotrice pronounces it Damfair.
 
It's funny how pronunciations are interpreted in your head. For instance, for me:

Margaery = mar - gah - ree

Tallhart = tal (as in apple) art

Celtigar = kell - ti' - gar

Xaro Xhoan Daxos = ksar - oe | kh-(aspirated or breathy "k") oe-ahn | duck-sos

Damphair - Dam-fair (come at me bro)

My wife has the wildest mispronunciations though. For instance, in her mind, Bran is Brian and Margaery is Margaritte, because the Reach is like France.
 
Lol book readers posting in the non book thread. Even if you aren't posting spoilers why even post in that thread? Like shit, can't you just lurk and giggle at the theories like I do?
 
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