I always thought of Grey Wind as a mirror of Robb's inner thoughts.
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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
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I always thought of Grey Wind as a mirror of Robb's inner thoughts.
Basileus777
Member
Michelle Fairley has already joined another TV show. Maybe there will be no Stoneheart.
Well, like someone said in the other thread, Stoneheart only appears like twice in the books. She can do both.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
I always felt that too, but then again, we never got any concrete proof.
PhoenixDark
Banned
IAmtheFMan
Member
I'm pretty sick of both of the show threads and I didn't know where this thread went.
This is my home now.
This is my home now.
Sirpopopop
Member
Except the seasons of the show have a defined narrative structure at this point. Big event in episode 9. Fall out in 10.
LegendofJoe
Member
any recent news, rumors, rumblings, rants, etc. about Winds of Winter?
Basileus777
Member
As I said, there's no need for them to continue to follow that if it doesn't suit them. The material they are adapting won't always allow them to, and it'd be a good thing to change it up.
Come back in 2015 and ask again.
CrashBandicoot
Member
I've never really been posting in either, every 3rd post or so seems to be moaning about changes from the source or spoilers, depending on the thread.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I only read the no-book-spoilers one much, and only now and then.
This thread is best thread.
Sirpopopop
Member
Except they seem to be slavish in adhering to the "big splash in Episode 9/fall out in Episode 10" scenario more than keeping items from each book within their respective season. So while it doesn't have to work that way, it now seems to be one of the central tenets of the show. Hence, my scenario is more likely than one where Tywin dies in Episode 10. I would be hard pressed to think of a bigger splash than Tywin biting the dust next season.
Note: Some scenes from Book 3 were put in Season 2 of Game of Thrones. Some details from ADWD are being filled in on Season 3.
See, you do ep 8 ending with duel, everyone upset over Oberyn losing and Tyrion facing an execution and because of it being episode 9 they'll believe that it may actually happen, then you don't show him till the last 15 mins of the ep adn everyone thinks 'Uh oh, last 15 mins, this is really going to happen' and then you have Varys and Tyrion's exit/Tywin stuff.
The other main draw of ep 9 could be the battle beyond the wall with Stannis showing up.
Anyone else think that the Crannogmen and anyone else in that area have suffered some sort of Bermuda triangle incident and they've completely disappeared off of Westeros?!
EDIT:
Also, thinking on it, do any of the main lords have male heirs?
Tommen Lannister - Myrcella but it's highly likely they both die if we've read Maggie the Frogs prophecy correctly and assuming it happens.
Mace Tyrell - He has Garlan and Loras and another(?) - Garlan is not married yet, Loras is in the kingsuard and may not want a wife anyways and I'm not sure if there's another? Margaery would obviously lose her name with a marriage
Doran Martell - Arianne is the only daughter now, she'd lose her name if married.
Bran Stark - then Rickon, It's obviously likely that Rickon will have to carry on the name if Bran doesn't come back, of course, Jon could be legitimized potentially but we'll see on that. Sansa would lose her name as would Arya.
Euron - Has no kids, I'd assume this would go to a Kingsmoot, Victarion is most like to die, Aeron doesn't want it, I don't think Theon will ever recover and Asha is a female, so would lose her name.
Edmure - I think Roslin is pregnant isn't she? But it's not known whether it's a boy or a girl and it could die at an early age.
Stannis - Only has Shireen and she'd obviously lose her name upon marriage.
The Houses are all in awkward positions in terms of carrying on through that line. Let me know if I've made any mistakes though, did this off the top off my head.
And this doesn't take into account the precarious positions a lot of these characters are in at the moment and you can add Dany and Aegon, this is why it'd be useful to have him win the Iron Throne and be legitimate (It doesn't even matter if he is, as long as there's no proof either way) so that the Crown can be passed down through the Targaryens if they do win it
EDIT:
Also, thinking on it, do any of the main lords have male heirs?
Tommen Lannister - Myrcella but it's highly likely they both die if we've read Maggie the Frogs prophecy correctly and assuming it happens.
Mace Tyrell - He has Garlan and Loras and another(?) - Garlan is not married yet, Loras is in the kingsuard and may not want a wife anyways and I'm not sure if there's another? Margaery would obviously lose her name with a marriage
Doran Martell - Arianne is the only daughter now, she'd lose her name if married.
Bran Stark - then Rickon, It's obviously likely that Rickon will have to carry on the name if Bran doesn't come back, of course, Jon could be legitimized potentially but we'll see on that. Sansa would lose her name as would Arya.
Euron - Has no kids, I'd assume this would go to a Kingsmoot, Victarion is most like to die, Aeron doesn't want it, I don't think Theon will ever recover and Asha is a female, so would lose her name.
Edmure - I think Roslin is pregnant isn't she? But it's not known whether it's a boy or a girl and it could die at an early age.
Stannis - Only has Shireen and she'd obviously lose her name upon marriage.
The Houses are all in awkward positions in terms of carrying on through that line. Let me know if I've made any mistakes though, did this off the top off my head.
And this doesn't take into account the precarious positions a lot of these characters are in at the moment and you can add Dany and Aegon, this is why it'd be useful to have him win the Iron Throne and be legitimate (It doesn't even matter if he is, as long as there's no proof either way) so that the Crown can be passed down through the Targaryens if they do win it
Yoda
Member
I'd try to not get to excited about it. Knowing GRRM 2016 would be an optimistic prediction about its release.
Beyonce Beytwice
Member
Nope, but Stannis point blank offered to legitimize him in ADWD ("Kneel and you shall rise again as Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell") and Jon spat it back in his face, so it doesn't matter anyway. Jon doesn't want to be King in the North anymore, only Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
This was actually in ASOS before he was even voted Lord Commander. I don't think the idea had anything to do with King in the North anyways; Stannis just wanted there to be a Stark in Winterfell to rally the North in his favor since the North won't really follow anyone but a Stark.
In reality, I'm semi-surprised this offer wouldn't have come from pretty much everyone. It's pretty well known the North is fixated on Starks and there's really nothing less "Stark" about Jon than anyone else beyond a technicality which can be erased by a King.
Beyonce Beytwice
Member
Oh right, I picked the wrong quote. But Stannis does offer it to him again in ADWD, only phrased differently: "Take a knee and swear that bastard sword to me, and rise as Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North." And Jon turns him down again. He is committed to the Night's Watch to the end.
CrashBandicoot
Member
Ah, but did he only refuse it because of the Night's Watch oath he took - which comes across as a bit "til death do us part" since at a funeral they say "And now his watch has ended".
If he is dead now and the common "Revived by Melisandre" theory is true, his watch could be ended and he would be freed from the vow, albeit on a technicality and not exactly honourable.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I personally think it he were going to die outright it would have been more explicit. People survive knife-attacks all the time (it can be hard to hit a vital).
PhoenixDark
Banned
He sent his envoys to Greywater Watch (Howland Reed), and somewhere else. There are theories that many in the north have heard about the letter, and that's why the mountain clans showed up on the Wall: to see Jon for themselves and get a measure of him.
Dunno if I believe that part, but I definitely believe there's a coup brewing and the Boltons are fucked.
CrashBandicoot
Member
Maybe, but you'd think a group of people who have been trained as swordsmen who presumably do want to kill Jon would be able to do it.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
That assumes that he was standing still and that nothing happened after Jon blacked out, I think. I'm just saying it isn't entirely implausible that he gets out of it without outright magic.
Beyonce Beytwice
Member
Bowen Marsh probably just couldn't see very well where he was stabbing him because of all the tears.
Jon's "death" really is conspicuously tame compared to most of the other POV death scenes in the series (including all the prologues), so the attack would seem to have been nonlethal. OTOH, Talisa *just* died on the show in almost exactly the same way, so who knows? Jon is the Schrodinger's cat of the series at this point in time.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
At the same time, Talisa served no purpose other than dying horribly for shock value. In reality, it would take longer than 10 seconds to die from a stab wound like that.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
My feeling is that, obviously, Jon blacked out or died while he was being stabbed. But it is intentionally abrupt and vague and we will learn in TWOW that Melisandre either interrupted his killing or revived him immediately after. If the Azor Ahai/Jon Targaryen theories are valid then it would make sense for her to be able to do it. Just my 2 cents though.
I don't consider it a fakeout death - it's meant to leave viewers speculating about Jon's ultimate fate and I don't think GRRM expects anyone to really believe he is dead (for good).
I don't consider it a fakeout death - it's meant to leave viewers speculating about Jon's ultimate fate and I don't think GRRM expects anyone to really believe he is dead (for good).
It did take a long-ish time for her to die, no? She fell to the floor after being stabbed, Arya's scene happens, and when we come back inside, she's still faintly breathing and moving and then Robb holds her up and she dies.
Steelyuhas
Member
Stannis also said he had to burn the Heartree and take up the Red God as Lord of Winterfell. I'm sure most of his decision had to do with being loyal to the Watch, but he did has reservations about doing that, said something along the lines of that Winterfell belonged to the Old Gods.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
And the final thing that did it for him was when he saw Ghost and realized that he was a Snow and not a Stark. Were it not for that, I think he may well have wound up going through with it.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
That was before he received Ramsay's letter though. He clearly had some regrets about the decision (his thoughts on Val point to that a little) but I wonder how easy it would have been for him to take up the name of Jon Stark once he knew what the Boltons were up to.
I really love Jon's arc in the book because of how conflicted he was. It's really hard for me to say what I would have done in his position and I like how he still has that twisted Stark sense of honour despite deciding that he is not one of them.
I really love Jon's arc in the book because of how conflicted he was. It's really hard for me to say what I would have done in his position and I like how he still has that twisted Stark sense of honour despite deciding that he is not one of them.
Zoso Achilles
Member
Unfortunately I thought it was real until and came here and realized how obvious it was that he doesn't truly die. Sure made me feel stupid.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I just think a free Melisandre battle rez would is way too predictable, and not in the R+L=J kind of way; I think pretty much everyone assumes as such.
Steelyuhas
Member
Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that.
Yeah he really was, there wasn't a clear cut decision in the readers mind or in his.
I'm curious to see how they capture that in the show, because Jon is pretty isolated once Stannis shows up, lots of time spent alone and thinking about his decisions, both past and present.
I don't know why you guys are talking about the Red Wedding when we've got friends trying to talk about the Neck. Get your priorities straight.
fixed that for you, you missed the majorest house.
Yeah, they're alive and kicking--you might remember they murdered a whole bunch of ironborn throughout the Neck: Reek "liberated" a few of the besieged at Moat Cailin.
fixed that for you, you missed the majorest house.
Yeah, they're alive and kicking--you might remember they murdered a whole bunch of ironborn throughout the Neck: Reek "liberated" a few of the besieged at Moat Cailin.
Hell, I can sometimes almost convince myself that Littlefinger is the hero of the series, despite how odious he can be. He's got no magic, no dragons, no prophesies, no notable lineage, no warrior skills, etc. He's armed only with obsessive self-interest, the patience to play the long game, the smarts to see the big picture, and the ability to manage minutia. Despite starting with no advantages, he's a total badass for whom almost everything works out.
I originally thought that, in a more conventional story, Littlefinger actually would be the hero. But that's not necessarily the case. If anything, he's like a comic book supervillain. I read some post recently (wish I could remember where) that lists how comic heroes are often born to privilege (e.g., Batman) or gifted with superpowers they did little to earn (e.g., Superman). It's their biggest nemeses (Joker, Lex Luthor) who are self-made. They're the underdogs who overcome adversity.
That was a great scene, hope they do it justice on the show.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
I hear that. But with the way she was hounding him constantly towards the end of the book and he kept blowing her off...I have to imagine that she had eyes on him at all times and if anyone was going to get Jon out of that situation and save him, it would be her. But I would expect that if, and only if, the theories of Jon's lineage are accurate.
How could I forget the most important family in Westeros!?!?!?
Honestly, I wouldn't be upset if he did win the Iron Throne at the end, but I don't think he wants to be front of house, I think he'd prefer to be controlling someone who has the power. Though, I imagine his creeping of Sansa will eventually get him killed or eliminated in some way.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Lannister - there are a lot of Lannisters + Cadet houses. Even assuming Lancel didn't want the House, Kevan has several kids. This of course assumes Tyrion remains a criminal, since by rights the Lord of Casterly Rock is Tyrion (since Tywin didn't publicly renounce him)
Tyrell - Garlan is married, Willas is not, but there are several heirs.
Martell - the inheritance law in Dorne allows women to inherit, there isn't a problem with Arianne inheriting the holdings of House Martell.
Stark - Bran's still alive, so is Rickon.
Greyjoy - Theon's still alive so far, although he's certainly not going to be having many kids even if he somehow managed to live.
Tully - The Blackfish is alive, so is Edmure.
Stannis - The fact that we haven't heard about any of the cadet branches doesn't mean they don't exist. In theory, Tommen and Myrcella :lol If it was really going to die out, the King could always legitimize Gendry or one of the trillions of other Robert bastards.
Beyonce Beytwice
Member
Yeah, that was the bleakest, grimmest scene in the book. Just rows and rows of corpses with the nihilistic Bolton and Frey armies marching between them. Should indeed make for some striking cinematography on the show.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
I would think being convicted of regicide would end any rights he would have in that regard. Unless another King/Queen absolves him of his crimes, I don't think he can inherit Casterly Rock.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
My thought is if Dany comes back and Tyrion somehow ingratiates himself to her, I could see him getting off. I personally expect him to get killed anyways.
timetokill
Banned
So did anybody else like how the show referred to us book readers?
We're wizards compared to those non-book scum!
We're wizards compared to those non-book scum!
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