:lol
:LOL
good jokes, this page. top-notch work all around.
and yeah, the Iron Bank is my jams. when Tycho Nestoris rides up into Stannis's camp: hell yes, someone competent gunna represent
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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
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:lol
:LOL
good jokes, this page. top-notch work all around.
and yeah, the Iron Bank is my jams. when Tycho Nestoris rides up into Stannis's camp: hell yes, someone competent gunna represent
Moff
Member
the story will probaly get more epic in the last two books and if there is any truth to the norse mythology blog guys theories (and I think and hope there is), there are some major epic twists incoming
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
The Tywin apologists in the other thread are infuriating. Jesus fucking christ, I know Charles Dance is awesome and he's a magnificent bastard and all, but to downplay his evil like that is just... ugh. It's all okay cause you know, it's for preserving his family's legacy! -_-
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Tywin defenders have always been of the more infuriating groups in the fandom. The people (and there are quite a few on Westeros and elsewhere) who try to claim that he was a badass, and that everything would have been peaceful under him, and all sorts of other things is really unsettling.
Tywin was one of the greatest monsters of the series.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
This! I cheered when Tyrion murdered the shit out of him. So well deserved. That's why I have hope that Roose and Ramsay will eat it, too. Gregor is kinda dead, I guess, I'm not sure if we could say justice has been served completely... but there is still time for the Boltons to suffer the wrath of the North and/or Stannis.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Martin has shown time and time again that while heroes may die, the real monsters always get the most brutal and pathetic deaths.
Tywin dies on the privy, emptying his bowels
Gregor dies screaming in pain for days and then has his body desecrated after death
Joffrey chokes to death at his own wedding, clawing at his own throat
Armory Lorch is eaten by a bear
Vargo Hoat gets cut up and has his body parts fed to him and to other people
You just know that guys like Ramsay and Euron are going to get absolutely brutal and humiliating deaths eventually.
Tywin dies on the privy, emptying his bowels
Gregor dies screaming in pain for days and then has his body desecrated after death
Joffrey chokes to death at his own wedding, clawing at his own throat
Armory Lorch is eaten by a bear
Vargo Hoat gets cut up and has his body parts fed to him and to other people
You just know that guys like Ramsay and Euron are going to get absolutely brutal and humiliating deaths eventually.
Summary Man
Member
I don't know. When I read the books I didn't think of Tywin as irredeemably evil. He did some horrible things (Tyrion and his wife), and he was instrumental in the Red Wedding, but I just saw him as a cunning, intimidating strategist. He planned the Red Wedding, yes, but I saw that more as manipulating the Frey's petulance for his own means. He was too smart to even attempt to do that under his own house, so he threw the Frey's under the bus instead.
Tywin is a bad guy, no doubt, but I saw him as just doing whatever necessary to win the war. He thought outside the box. Ultimately the Freys were the ones dumb/spiteful enough to actually carry out the massacre themselves.
Show Tywin hasn't been that evil yet though. When it becomes obvious who was behind the RW in the next episode some more people might start to turn on him but who knows.
Moff
Member
I wouldnt call him evil either. tywin does not believe in good and evil, he operates on a different level. He is smart and very severe and knows exactly how you prevail in a world like westeros, where honored folks like the starks get slaughtered. this makes him a very cold and cruel man.
I was not glad at all when he died, not because I thought he was good, but because he was a great character, but thats westeros, the viper got him.
I was not glad at all when he died, not because I thought he was good, but because he was a great character, but thats westeros, the viper got him.
When someone defends Tywin as being not that evil all I can do is shrug. But personally I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with rooting for the villain, I've been doing that for a long time now and Tywin is a pretty fucking badass villain to root for. Or has been, anyways.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I don't necessarily disagree. Honestly his reasoning for the RW wasn't even that bad by itself. Something about how can it be worse to kill a dozen men at dinner instead of thousands at war. Not that it was really just a dozen, it was more than that, but IMO the true evil in the RW lies not so much with Tywin, but with the Boltons and the Freys for their betrayal. Tywin here was at war and just killing his enemies and he used an opportunity to do that quickly and efficiently, as horrible as the whole thing was.
His atrocities are with Tysha, his treatment of his children (especially Tyrion and blaming him for his mother's death), his hypocrisy about the whores, his use of men like Gregor Clegane and the Brave Companions to commit multiple atrocities on innocent peasants, his complete massacre of houses Reynes and Tarbeck, and so on.
Supermanisdead
Member
It's weird, Charles Dance makes me hate Tywin even more. Same thing with Joffrey. Good acting, but nasty villainous shits.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The S2 Arya scenes did a LOT to soften the character in that adaptation.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Yeah, you're probably right. I didn't care much for those scenes, to be honest. They were entertaining at first, but there were too many of them, they added nothing to the story, they crippled Arya's development and story progression, and they made Tywin way too sympathetic, with the only exception is when he asks for torture/murder of peasants to find Amory Lorch's murderer (who's right there pouring his water, lol).
timetokill
Banned
The thing is, while those deaths may be pathetic many times, GRRM doesn't give his readers the satisfaction of witnessing them firsthand, with a few exceptions. We don't get to revel in Gregor's pain and misery, we don't really get to enjoy these other characters realizing their fate in agony. We don't watch them writhe under the realization of a betrayal.
We get all the grisly, gut-punch details of our favorite characters' deaths but very little satisfaction from the other side. At least that's my take.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
It's Flanderization, really. Joffrey's doing weird ass shit on the show like putting quarrels in hookers for no real reason, and in contrast, Tywin's not actually a hypocritical asshole, he's simply so pragmatic he does distateful things in furtherance of his pragmatism.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
That's an interesting point. I wonder if it's really why people defend Tywin, for the TV show I think it's mostly Dance's charisma (and yes I admit he's totally awesome in the role, almost too awesome). But it's true they've "flanderized" Joffrey a fuckton. Book-Joffrey is a turd, but they took him wayyyy too far in the show, giving all of Cersei's crimes to him and the whole whore torturing/murdering thing was just over-the-top and unnecessary. He was despicable enough without all of that. Eh.
Well, that's kinda the point of these events, that they are unpredictable.
Unless you are a wizard and predicted after 5 chapters of ASOS that Oberyn Martell will come to KL and fight Gregor.
I don't remember all the details from the books but I suppose Tywin has his reasons. Yes he is a morally bankrupt man who mostly cares about himself and his family as an extension of himself. He wants to own the world and doesn't care who gets trampled in the process. At the same time he does want to establish some kind of order as he sees it. Yes the order involves Lannisters at the top but it doesn't necessarily mean everyone else will be living a bad life. Though I suppose that is how all dictators view themselves.
Robb Stark is not offering a better world from the perspective of Tywin. By rebelling Robb would break up the kingdoms and return Westeros to a more tribal state where every man would want to be the King of his own region. As readers and viewers we get to see Robb up close and we like him, he is our guy, a good guy, and so we want him to win and have a great time ruling the North. Would that be best for the overall future of Westeros though? I really don't know. The old Kings in the North weren't all perfect men and there were many before Robb. The idea of the King in the North is very romantic, it stirs up emotions that I haven't completely wrapped my head around even though I often times feel them when reading the book.
Robb Stark is not offering a better world from the perspective of Tywin. By rebelling Robb would break up the kingdoms and return Westeros to a more tribal state where every man would want to be the King of his own region. As readers and viewers we get to see Robb up close and we like him, he is our guy, a good guy, and so we want him to win and have a great time ruling the North. Would that be best for the overall future of Westeros though? I really don't know. The old Kings in the North weren't all perfect men and there were many before Robb. The idea of the King in the North is very romantic, it stirs up emotions that I haven't completely wrapped my head around even though I often times feel them when reading the book.
I disagree. You assume that Tywin would stop at securing the Westeros for himself and everyone would live in peace and prosperity ever after. But what exactly would stop him there? He would spread the influence of the Lannisters further, all the great houses would have to submit more and more or risk being wiped out or at least dispossessioned, and the peasants would probably live close to starvation under his taxes. And then the White Walkers would come and Tywin, being the rational man that he is, would probably be too late with sending help to the Wall.
Tywin wasn't a moron like Joffrey, he knew he would need the support of the people, but once he no longer had need for it, nothing would prevent him from abusing the power to make Lannisters ever richer and more influential. For pretty much everyone except for Lannister's most loyal servants, Tywin's rule would have been a miserable one.
I don't think they softened him. I just got the feeling that he thought she rocked, which she does. He remained a badarse and a bastard. You don't need to be a soppy bugger to recognise what an amazing kid she is.
I also got the feeling he knew who she was, which weirded me out a bit.
Ape Gone Insane
Member
See if Euron had Balon assassinated by the Faceless Men (which is likely given the The Ghost of High Heart's foresight of a man without a face with a drowned crow [Euron] perched on his shoulder waiting on a swaying bridge - which matches the description from Greyjoys' castle) then he must have paid a heavy price, right? Could it have been that dragon egg he supposedly just threw away?
Similarly, could it be that the Faceless Men are not just looking for a way to kill dragons but to hatch them? Maybe use them to bring down the Wall in some fashion or something and bring death to all men.
Similarly, could it be that the Faceless Men are not just looking for a way to kill dragons but to hatch them? Maybe use them to bring down the Wall in some fashion or something and bring death to all men.
Since everything except the similarities between the foresight and death of Balon are completely speculation it's realy hard to guess what role the Faceless Men are going to play. I'd be disappointed if they are nothing more but a plot device for Arya's training and I hope to see Braavos as a whole (Sealord, Iron Bank, Faceless Men) play a role in the Westeros endgame. The Free Cities are way more interesting IMO then all the slaver shitholes were Dany is hanging out.
Someone asked earlier what Season 4's ep 9 should be, I'd like Episode 8 to be the Oberyn duel at the end of the ep so Tyrion is sentenced to death and then the next episode is general stuff with the last 15 mins being the only Tyrion stuff so they get to him in the episode and are thinking 'Uh oh, episode 9, Tyrion is sentenced to death and we haven't seen him yet' and then have the Tywin stuff to finish the ep.
On a side note, does anyone remember if they say in the books who wrote the Rains of Castamere for the Lannisters?
On a side note, does anyone remember if they say in the books who wrote the Rains of Castamere for the Lannisters?
Basileus777
Member
The question is how much AFFC/ADWD material they will move into season 4. Bran, Arya, Theon, and Dany will definitely have to use stuff from those books or they will have nothing to do. It may even make more sense to have Tywin die earlier and end the season with Jon becoming Lord Commander.
Tywin stuff should finish up episode 10.
Episode 1: Introduction of the Martells.
Episode 2: Balon dies, introduction of the Greyjoys.
Episode 3: Littlefinger returns
Episode 4: Purple wedding, Sansa flees.
Episode 5: WIldlings attack.
Episode 6: Stannis arrives
Episode 7: Lysa is killed
Episode 8: Oberyin versus Gregor.
Episode 9: Lord Jon Snow.
Episode 10: Tyrion kills Tywin, the Hound dies,
talisayNon
Member
next episode is where Tywin dies right? Does Jeoffrey die too or is that next season?
I just want to placate a lot of my friends that watch the series and don't read the books. They're on the edge right now lol
I just want to placate a lot of my friends that watch the series and don't read the books. They're on the edge right now lol
Joffrey dies before Tywin. Both are next season.
Basileus777
Member
Next season for both.
So Arya does nothing for 9 episodes? That won't work.
talisayNon
Member
damn so the don't get any satisfaction at all this season lol aiight
Louis Cypher
Banned
They better not nerf Tyrion becoming more evil
But I have my doubts
Did Arya even kill yet?
But I have my doubts
Did Arya even kill yet?
BertramCooper
Banned
I think they'll send Arya off to Braavos quite a bit earlier than in the books.
Supermanisdead
Member
Me too. Filming her scenes and setting up her part of the world is going to be a big endeavor. They should give her time to explore the city. And I can't wait. Braavos is going to look so good.
Tyrion never becomes evil, and yes she's killed once or twice I think.
Basileus777
Member
He has a bard murdered, he murders Shae himself. He raped his wife. Tyrion's done all sorts of evil acts.
Arya does nothing through the whole course of the ASOIaF, at least they're staying true to the source material.
Louis Cypher
Banned
He's not evil but not squeaky clean like in the show
hemtae
Member
She did kill that stableboy when running after Syrio died.
ToyMachine228
Member
I don't know, after the reactions from show-viewers it may suit them well to give everyone who is upset a nod that there is going to be cruel justice/revenge.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
I don't think there was anything to imply that. At least it had never occurred to me before. Of course I could have just missed any implications.
Sirpopopop
Member
Except wasn't the kingdom prosperous when he was Aegon's hand?
Edit: Also, let's be honest next season's episode 9 is going to be when Tywin dies. It'll also feature the final victory on the wall against the wildlings. We know the way the TV series functions - big event in episode 9, fall out in episode 10.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Balon will die in Sunday's episode actually. I do agree that Joffery will likely die in ep4, but I also think the wildling attack could happen as early as ep3.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
We never truly know if Robb was even a warg or not. I believe it was just Grey Wind acting on his own without Robb's psychic influence. There was nothing to suggest this was the case, but again, we'll never know.
Basileus777
Member
It doesn't have to work that way. They don't need to show the fallout from Tywin's death the same season, the book didn't show it.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
You guys are likely right. I think I formed that theory in my head because he said Grey Wind's name? Or something? I dunno, I was young
Well, you make a good point. I wish it would have been cool to see all of the Stark children become wargs, but so far, we only know of Bran, Jon, and Arya. I dunno, Sansa could start warging into birds or something. And who knows what going to happen to Rickon, anyway. So far he's done jack shit, so my personal feeling is that George has big plans for him.
Basileus777
Member
Rickon is too young to ever be more than a pawn for someone else within the scope of this series.
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