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[Basileus777]

If she 'set sail for the Dreadfort' she can scarcely conquer Deepwood Motte on the way because Deepwood is on the west coast while the Dreadfort is some 400 miles away on the other side. The Ironborn thrive near the sea, and for them to realistically launch an assault on the Dreadfort, they'd need to keep their fleet on the east coast.

Well, regardless, I don't think Asha is gonna end up there at any rate...

Well they could move Deepwood Motte to wherever they want, even put it on the east coast of Westeros. The issue is more one of cost, they need to be cutting locations, not trying to fit in something as unnecessary as Deepwood Motte.

 

[TestOfTide]

Minor TWOW spoiler:

Spoiler

Many early TWOW chapters were meant for ADWD, including Theon's. In that chapter, Stannis takes control a tower alongside a Dreadfort maester and his ravens; the ravens can only go to Winterfell. It's generally believed that Stannis must have won the upcoming battle on the frozen lake, then sent a letter to Winterfell claiming that he was defeated/killed. The ruse would allow Stannis and Manderly's men to be admitted into Winterfell, at which point they sack it.

I don't think Ramsay is "bluffing" per se about Theon. He might genuinely think that Theon escaped, or perhaps Stannis' letter to Winterfell mentioned that Theon was not found.

TWOW

Spoiler

I thought it was a Karhold raven and that was how Stannis discovered that the Karstarks were planning to betray him.

They will be done with most if not all of ADWD by the end of season 5. Some characters are simply too far along in their stories already. Look at Bran, Arya, Asha, Theon, and even Stannis, their plotlines are far along. It's going to be interesting to see how they handle the northern storyline. I wonder if Stannis and Asha meet even before Stannis goes to the wall.

Asha still has:
- A pointless journey down the sunset sea, around dorne, and up the narrow sea, likely raiding along the way
- turning around at some point to make it to the kingsmoot
- talk with euron and victarion
- the kingsmoot

Bran still needs to meet coldhands and since he clearly is going to stay in a cave it doesn't matter where he finds the cave it could be in the lands of always winter in the TV show.

Theon is simply going to be tortured more. He still needs to be flayed a little more and have his teeth smashed in. For dramatic effect they could even just leave the theon storyline for a nearly all of season 4 and then when they show him again have him look and sound like "Reek". Would give the viewers similar results as the book readers but without the slight confusion of figuring out how Ramsay got theon.

Stannis does a lot at the wall even in ASoS. Don't forget there is the election of the next commander which can easily be stretched to introduce people from eastwatch and the shadow tower.

Arya still has a few key scenes before the scene where she hitches a ride to bravos:
- Sandor teaching her where the heart is now that he knows she wants to kill people
- Fight with polliver's crew (arya could still do the dramatic tickler kill but just do it on polliver)
- Sandor begging for the mercy of death and arya responding by just leaving him

 

[A More Normal Bird]

I'm pretty sure she's already captured Deepwood in the show, but that doesn't guarantee we'll ever see it. Maybe she fails in her attempt to storm the Dreadfort and is forced to flee overland back to Deepwood and then runs into Stannis on the way.

 

[Supermanisdead]

Asha doesn't need to be at the Kingsmoot. She was useless anyways.

 

[Basileus777]

Asha doesn't need to be at the Kingsmoot. She was useless anyways.

Without Asha and probably Aeron, they don't even need a Kingsmoot. Balon dies, Euron and Victarion squabble with each other. The Kingsmoot likely has no purpose in the show. Hell since Balon is still alive, they can play up Euron's assassination of him.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

There are strong hints in A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons that most of that established history is embellished, and that it hasn't actually been nearly that long. I think this is definitely going to be touched on even more in The Winds of Winter.

Eh? Say what?

 

[PhoenixDark]

Eh? Say what?

Sam discovers that much of the Night Watch's history is off by thousands of years. And The Reader openly questions the dates and legends of history in AFFC. Makes sense, especially when you consider that much of Westeros history might be similar to how Arthurian legends were viewed in Europe at one point.

One thing I find ridiculous though: the Starks have been around for thousands of years yet there's essentially one line of them left (from Ned's dad), and nearly all of them are now dead or in exile after two years of war. There should be a lot of Starks out there. I suppose winter would make the Starks rarer than say...Lannisters, who produce in abundance in the summer safety of Casterly Rock, or the Tyrells in the Reach, but still it's weird.

 

[CrashBandicoot]

One thing I find ridiculous though: the Starks have been around for thousands of years yet there's essentially one line of them left (from Ned's dad), and nearly all of them are now dead or in exile after two years of war. There should be a lot of Starks out there. I suppose winter would make the Starks rarer than say...Lannisters, who produce in abundance in the summer safety of Casterly Rock, or the Tyrells in the Reach, but still it's weird.

Weren't the Karstarks a branch of Starks that moved to Karhold and basically became their own family?

 

[Reyne]

Weren't the Karstarks a branch of Starks that moved to Karhold and basically became their own family?

Yes, but they are allegedly separated by a thousand year, which is when you think about it a massive amount of time. The Greystark were also given some note, who were eliminated when they decided to side with the Boltons when the King in the North ruled, which would have been a minimum of three-hundred years ago. Also a very long time ago.

Either way, I agree that the lack of more recent cadet branches of the Starks is strange. I guess that for the sake of the plot the Starks line were already growing rather thin, resulting in only a main family of Stark being left.

 

[Basileus777]

One thing I find ridiculous though: the Starks have been around for thousands of years yet there's essentially one line of them left (from Ned's dad), and nearly all of them are now dead or in exile after two years of war. There should be a lot of Starks out there. I suppose winter would make the Starks rarer than say...Lannisters, who produce in abundance in the summer safety of Casterly Rock, or the Tyrells in the Reach, but still it's weird.

You could say this about many families in Westeros, it's just more convenient for GRRM not to have to keep track of all of it. I doubt there are any deeper reasonings behind it.

 

[Joni]

One thing I find ridiculous though: the Starks have been around for thousands of years yet there's essentially one line of them left (from Ned's dad), and nearly all of them are now dead or in exile after two years of war. There should be a lot of Starks out there. I suppose winter would make the Starks rarer than say...Lannisters, who produce in abundance in the summer safety of Casterly Rock, or the Tyrells in the Reach, but still it's weird.

It is not that strange based on what we know about the Starks from the past.
- First of all they have numerous branch families in the form of the Karstarks, and unnamed people in White Harbor and Barrowton. Many families are probably related to them without it being very important. Look at Cat suggesting a Royce heir to become Lord of Winterfell as heir to Robb.
- Female children would lose the Stark name and would become part of the other family. Most would be wed to friendly families, so again you'd have the Karstarks, the Umbers, ... so most of the North would be related to them.
- Many Starks have joined the Night Watch. Benjen joined the Watch when Ned got an heir, Ned had no problem joining the Watch as punishment in AGOT. They have always played a big role. Maybe even Bran and Rickon would have become NW if the events of AGOT hadn't passed.
- The numerous wars and winters could have their effect.

 

[Dysun]

Anyone know what the drive by spoiler they are talking about in the No Book Reader thread was?

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Anyone know what the drive by spoiler they are talking about in the No Book Reader thread was?

Recently? No. Just before episode 9, somebody said "lol Robb dies next ep."

 

[Joni]

Anyone know what the drive by spoiler they are talking about in the No Book Reader thread was?

Jon Snow and Tywin Lannister die.

 

[PhoenixDark]

There's a healthy, realistic amount of Lannisters, Tyrells, Martells, Manderlys, Freys (lol), etc. Looking back to the War Of the Roses many of the families are quite similar, and high mortality rates definitely lead to Yorks, Lancaster, etc being quite limited as well. I can understand why the Greyjoy line is so limited for instance, considering how many of Balon's brothers and sons died. But the Starks...

Rickard was an only child and hit the reproduction jackpot by having three sons. The Starks were probably more ravaged by the last two wars than any other major family, with the Greyjoys in second. War+winter=bad for family survival.

The more I look at the Stark genealogy the more it makes sense. Still, there are multiple Starks with no children.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Stark

 

[Joni]

Rickard was an only child and hit the reproduction jackpot by having three sons. The Starks were probably more ravaged by the last two wars than any other major family, with the Greyjoys in second. War+winter=bad for family survival.

Rickard had a sister.

 

[Hindle]

I've been thinking about Jacquen and what he's doing at the Citadel. My only theory is he's in Leauge with the Others and has been sent there to make sure Samwell doesn't find out more about thier plans.

I'm reaching a bit I know lol.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

They can have Asha set sail for the Dreadfort, conquering Deepwood Motte on the way and returning to the Iron Isles when she hears the news of her fathers dead.

She's circumnavigating Westeros, not cutting across the North. Deepwood Motte is not on her way at all.

My guess is that her journey will be interrupted somehow and she'll return to the Iron Islands for the Kingsmoot at some point.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I've been thinking about Jacquen and what he's doing at the Citadel. My only theory is he's in Leauge with the Others and has been sent there to make sure Samwell doesn't find out more about thier plans.

I'm reaching a bit I know lol.

He acquired the key to the Citadel's achieves/books, and we know they possess one of two existing copies of the book about killing dragons. The other copy is on the Wall, where Jaquen just so happened to be going first...

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

He acquired the key to the Citadel's achieves/books, and we know they possess one of two existing copies of the book about killing dragons. The other copy is on the Wall, where Jaquen just so happened to be going first...

Ooooooooooh.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

He acquired the key to the Citadel's achieves/books, and we know they possess one of two existing copies of the book about killing dragons. The other copy is on the Wall, where Jaquen just so happened to be going first...

Hmm, I don't recall that... which chapter is that in? Last Sam in AFFC?

 

[Jack Scofield]

Hmm, I don't recall that... which chapter is that in? Last Sam in AFFC?

He was being transferred there by Yoren in A Clash of Kings.

 

[Steelyuhas]

I'm pretty sure she's already captured Deepwood in the show, but that doesn't guarantee we'll ever see it. Maybe she fails in her attempt to storm the Dreadfort and is forced to flee overland back to Deepwood and then runs into Stannis on the way.

Yeah the show has mentioned she has several times.

I'm really not sure what they are doing with Asha/Yara, I guess we'll be along for the ride like everyone else.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

He was being transferred there by Yoren in A Clash of Kings.

Oh, that. Hmm, interesting... we've always wondered how Jaqen got caught and thrown into the Black Cell. To get a free ride to the Wall?

 

[The Albatross]

Jaqen is a big mystery in my mind. They say 1 Faceless Man is worth an army... Yet he needs to hitch a ride to the wall, one that would certainly be more dangerous than traveling alone (given that he's in Kings Landing during the most tumultuous time in quite a while AND he's almost burned alive in his shackles until Arya conveniently saves him).

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Maybe their "worth an army" boast is just an exaggeration of their reputation and they're not exactly invincible?

 

[PhoenixDark]

Oh, that. Hmm, interesting... we've always wondered how Jaqen got caught and thrown into the Black Cell. To get a free ride to the Wall?

Perhaps. It seems quite odd that someone of his ability would be arrested against his will; he must have been there for a reason. If I had to bet I'd say he found out those prisoners were going to be sent to the Wall, and took the identity of one; it would explain why Biter and Rorge were so afraid of him.

Some folks think Varys is involved, but why would he want to kill Dany's dragons?

 

[Moff]

Some folks think Varys is involved, but why would he want to kill Dany's dragons?

maybe varys (or whoevers is behind jaqens assignment) doesnt want the books to kill the dragons but prevent others from being able to do it

 

[Snake]

Some folks think Varys is involved, but why would he want to kill Dany's dragons?

The only evidence given for this theory is that Varys hates magic, and that the dragons bring magic back to the world, therefore he will want to destroy them.

And it's not the worst evidence, but we know so little about Varys' specific intentions that I am not very convinced by far-reaching predictions about what he will do.

 

[PhoenixDark]

The only evidence given for this theory is that Varys hates magic, and that the dragons bring magic back to the world, therefore he will want to destroy them.

And it's not the worst evidence, but we know so little about Varys' specific intentions that I am not very convinced by far-reaching predictions about what he will do.

Good point but at the same time, wouldn't he want Dany's dragons alive to ensure Aegon wins? Obviously he had no idea they were going to hatch, and he seemingly didn't care whether she was assassinated or not; some have theorized that killing her might have been planned as a catalyst to convince Drogo to bring his Khalasar to Westeros, supporting Viserys and Aegon. I really look forward to more info on this because it seems quite odd. The third book was originally A Dance With Dragons so it's not like Martin made shit up, but...yea, I'll need someone (Varys, Illyrio, etc) to explain this to me lol.

 

[Snake]

So after that guy in the GoT No Spoilers thread was talking about his country's translation of the book, I looked into it a bit. I had only heard of some European versions splitting ASOS in half, but found that the German version of the series splits every single book in two:

(In place of AGoT)
The Lords of Winterfell
The Legacy of Winterfell

(In place of ACoK)
The Throne of the Seven Kingdoms
The Seed of the Golden Lion

(In place of ASoS)
Storm of Swords
Queen of the Dragons

(In place of AFfC)
Time of Crows
The Dark Queen (Darkstar redeemed!)

(In place of ADWD)
Son of the Griffin
A Dance with Dragons


Son of the Griffin stood out to me. I doubt GRRM had any input at all on those titles but it's still interesting to see Griff and Aegon's roles emphasized to such an extent.

Good point but at the same time, wouldn't he want Dany's dragons alive to ensure Aegon wins? Obviously he had no idea they were going to hatch, and he seemingly didn't care whether she was assassinated or not; some have theorized that killing her might have been planned as a catalyst to convince Drogo to bring his Khalasar to Westeros, supporting Viserys and Aegon. I really look forward to more info on this because it seems quite odd. The third book was originally A Dance With Dragons so it's not like Martin made shit up, but...yea, I'll need someone (Varys, Illyrio, etc) to explain this to me lol.

Yeah, I wish Kevan's ADwD epilogue had contained a little more information on Varys' motives since we won't be getting another opportunity like that. The fact that he doesn't even reference Dany is sort of odd.

 

[DrForester]

Well, if we assume that Vary's knows she's married and had not continues west, I think it's worth considering that he's given up on her. The argument is open as to whether Varys and Dany were Plan A and Aegon Plan B, or vice versa. He and Illerio kept them away from each other for some reason (most logically to have a backup).

 

[Iksenpets]

When did this thread get moved to community? I was wondering why I hadn't seen it popping up at all lately, lol.

She's circumnavigating Westeros, not cutting across the North. Deepwood Motte is not on her way at all.

My guess is that her journey will be interrupted somehow and she'll return to the Iron Islands for the Kingsmoot at some point.

I'm thinking the Kingsmoot is cut. If they're trying to cut things down for time and to minimize the size of the cast, the easiest thing to do is to have Yara gone, like she's doing, so that Euron can claim the throne cleanly, and then take on Victarion's role himself by going to get Dany, while leaving some nameless commander to orchestrate the offscreen invasion of the Reach.

EDIT: Just caught up on this thread and learned that Euron is actually Daario so it won't be that easy, lol. This is the best theory since "Varys is a mermaid".

 

[zon]

So Jaqen is the one who infiltrated the Citadel? How did we come to this conclusion?

 

[Trojita]

So Jaqen is the one who infiltrated the Citadel? How did we come to this conclusion?

The assassin that kills Pate has the same description as the face Jaquen had when he said farewell to Arya.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

So Jaqen is the one who infiltrated the Citadel? How did we come to this conclusion?

The description of the guy who killed Pate (with a poisoned coin) in the AFFC prologue matches the face Arya saw Jaqen put on. Then the last Sam chapter finishes with him meeting a guy claiming to be Pate.

 

[zon]

The assassin that kills Pate has the same description as the face Jaquen had when he said farewell to Arya.

The description of the guy who killed Pate (with a poisoned coin) in the AFFC prologue matches the face Arya saw Jaqen put on. Then the last Sam chapter finishes with him meeting a guy claiming to be Pate.

Ahh ok. It's been so long since I read the book that I had forgotten. The citadel plot became a lot more interesting all of a sudden.

 

[Trojita]

Ahh ok. It's been so long since I read the book that I had forgotten. The citadel plot became a lot more interesting all of a sudden.

You do know who Alleras is right?

 

[CrashBandicoot]

You do know who Alleras is right?

Damn, I really need to start paying attention more, just checked the wiki.

 

[Trojita]

Damn, I really need to start paying attention more, just checked the wiki.

Sam's story becomes even more amazing when you realize that in his last chapter he's in a room with Jaquen fucking H'qhar and one of the infamous Sand Snakes and he has no idea.

 

[zon]

You do know who Alleras is right?

Oh, kinda funny though I don't know what she's supposed to accomplish there.

 

[Trojita]

What, what more have I missed?

Alleras is more than likely Oberyn's bastard child Sallera Sand. I mean just look at the name, it is a 99.999999% certainty. Along with that we know Sallera's mother was a Summer Islander, she was outside of Dorne when her sisters were taken captive, and Alleras has the same Widows Peak as Oberyn.

 

[calza]

When did this thread get moved to community? I was wondering why I hadn't seen it popping up at all lately, lol.



I'm thinking the Kingsmoot is cut. If they're trying to cut things down for time and to minimize the size of the cast, the easiest thing to do is to have Yara gone, like she's doing, so that Euron can claim the throne cleanly, and then take on Victarion's role himself by going to get Dany, while leaving some nameless commander to orchestrate the offscreen invasion of the Reach.

EDIT: Just caught up on this thread and learned that Euron is actually Daario so it won't be that easy, lol. This is the best theory since "Varys is a mermaid".

I hate this idea, I think the Ironborn need the Kingsmoot and I hate the merging of Euron and Victarion. Get rid of Aeron sure, but Euron needs to be mysterious. The kingsmoot has one of his and AFFC best scenes with the horn.

You may be right, I though Theon was great in season 2 but I didn't like his stuff in season 3 and no idea what they are doing with the Greyjoys now. Balon should be dead...

 

[Dysun]

I hope they get Tom Whatshisface as Jaqen back to throw Balon off the bridge

 

[CrashBandicoot]

I hope they get Tom Whatshisface as Jaqen back to throw Balon off the bridge

I'm assuming this'll be shown, the show doesn't seem to like ambiguity.

 

[LegendofJoe]

He acquired the key to the Citadel's achieves/books, and we know they possess one of two existing copies of the book about killing dragons. The other copy is on the Wall, where Jaquen just so happened to be going first...

Hmm, that connection never occurred to me. Adds more evidence to the theory that the Faceless Men are agents of the Others. Arya is definitely going to be sent back to Westeros to take out some people with the ability to fight the Others, Davos or Stannis maybe?

 

[Wh0 N0se]

I'm assuming this'll be shown, the show doesn't seem to like ambiguity.

Yeah they just like to throw it in your face to make sure you understand what's happened.


Reading ACOK and every time I go through a Theon chapter I always scream in my head that he should just tell Rodrik Cassel or Maseter Luwin that he didn't kill Bran or Rickon, there's the moment where Maester Luwin is on about him taking the black and he could have said something then and then Ramsay comes back and defeats Rodrik Cassel and I'm like 'noooooo, that was your chance Theon!!!!'

 

[Ephidel]

I hate this idea, I think the Ironborn need the Kingsmoot and I hate the merging of Euron and Victarion. Get rid of Aeron sure, but Euron needs to be mysterious. The kingsmoot has one of his and AFFC best scenes with the horn.

I'd also hate Victarion and Euron being merged as characters (I really can't quite see how that could be done :|), but I don't see a problem with eliminating the Kingsmoot. If nothing else it stops them having to stop and explain why the family of raping, pillaging, viking pirates have a talkathon as their election mechanism for successors when all the other families stand by male primogeniture just kill each other.

Either way Euron will become King of the Iron Isles, Victarion will be head to Essos, and Yara will end up in the North.

By having Yara off questing when Balon dies, they no longer have to deal with her or where her claim actually stands. They don't have to do any set up for the Kingsmoot, and they don't have to have one - they can just jump straight to the brothers and keep the action rolling.

Balon dies, Aeron supports Victaron in claiming the Seastone Chair (or if Aeron is removed then Victarion can simply claim it for himself outright), Euron gatecrashes their party with his ship of mutes and his dragon horn, sneers all over their claim, and scares everyone half to death so they support him instead.

From then on, everything can work as is, with Euron being generally sinister and asserting his dominance, shipping Victarion off on his voyage to keep him out of the way. Or get him dragons. Whatever. Similarly, Victarion can prove himself in battle, cause some chaos on the coasts, and find his second god on his way to Mereen.
Sure, Asha won't have 'claimed' her right to the Chair, but she would have lost anyway, and maybe this will be a better use of her time. She can stake her claim if/when she returns with Theon with one of those "This throne is mine ours by rights!" claims that everyone loves

The book kind of suggests they'll have to rerun the Kingsmoot anyway by explicitly stating that one was declared void once before due to one of the heirs not being present to put forth his claim. Once Stannis finds out Bran and Rickon aren't dead (and there are enough people around who can tell him that) then he'll have less reasons to want Theon dead, and he could be more useful alive. If nothing else he can be a tool to shake things up over there - he wouldn't have to win the Re-moot for it to shift the balance of power (and I doubt he could at present).
If that happened the show could always just run the second one instead, or introduce a Kingsmoot as a way to contest a ruler rather than elect one. Or skip in then too

 

[Iksenpets]

I hate this idea, I think the Ironborn need the Kingsmoot and I hate the merging of Euron and Victarion. Get rid of Aeron sure, but Euron needs to be mysterious. The kingsmoot has one of his and AFFC best scenes with the horn.

You may be right, I though Theon was great in season 2 but I didn't like his stuff in season 3 and no idea what they are doing with the Greyjoys now. Balon should be dead...

Not saying I like it, but I can see them going for it. Or keeping it so that Victarion is still there, but never contests Euron's claim and accepts his mission across the sea right up front.

And I really wish we had gotten more of Sam in Oldtown since there's definitely something big going down. Felt like such a tease ending where it did.

 

[Summary Man]

EDIT: Just caught up on this thread and learned that Euron is actually Daario so it won't be that easy, lol.

What? I can't tell of you're joking or not, haha. Is there clarification for this, or is it just a joke?