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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

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Here's a thought with the whole R + L = J

Lets say this is true. Do you think Varys and Illerio know? We're certainly led to believe the only living person who would know would be Howland Reed, but Vary's does have eyes and ears everywhere.

Nah. even if they did know, Varys would probably back the claims of Rhaegar's legitimate child and/or sister over those of his bastard with Lyanna Stark.

He is the Lord of Harrenhal and Lord Protector of the Vale if I'm right? Considering he's come from nothing that's pretty good going.

how did I miss this? Again, Littlefinger did not come from nothing, he was nobility to begin with- being the ward of Hoster Tully and growing up with Cat Stark and Lysa Arryn. He was just from a minor house without a lot of influence, and is REALLY bitter about it. No way he gets where he was without the connections he had with the Tullys, etc. It was Lysa who got Jon Arryn to give him a post at kings landing as an official- he didn't get there "on his own."

The only characters who legitimately got into positions of power from "nothing" are Varys (started as a slave), Melisandre (same), and Davos Seaworth (a smuggler- and that cost him the fingers on his right hand).
 
Here's a thought with the whole R + L = J

Lets say this is true. Do you think Varys and Illerio know? We're certainly led to believe the only living person who would know would be Howland Reed, but Vary's does have eyes and ears everywhere.

Ned wrote a letter for Jon when he was locked in the black cells of King's Landing, and asked Varys to send it to him. Some believe Varys may have read the letter and determined Jon is a Targ, but I seriously doubt Ned put any blatant information in the letter. Instead, I believe it's more likely that Ned told Jon to go to Winterfell and look in a specific area of the crypts for something. Varys might have found that interesting, but I doubt he could possibly determine it meant Jon is a Targ.

Maybe someone knows something about it, but they aren't "important" enough for anyone to listen to. Lyanna must have had some handmaidens at some point to help her.
 
Ned wrote a letter for Jon when he was locked in the black cells of King's Landing, and asked Varys to send it to him. Some believe Varys may have read the letter and determined Jon is a Targ, but I seriously doubt Ned put any blatant information in the letter. Instead, I believe it's more likely that Ned told Jon to go to Winterfell and look in a specific area of the crypts for something. Varys might have found that interesting, but I doubt he could possibly determine it meant Jon is a Targ.

Maybe someone knows something about it, but they aren't "important" enough for anyone to listen to. Lyanna must have had some handmaidens at some point to help her.

Howland Reed lord of the Neck and father of Meera and Jojen Reed was present when Ned saw lyanna die. If there's anything in the letter, it's probably "go talk to howland reed."
 

nampad

Member
how did I miss this? Again, Littlefinger did not come from nothing, he was nobility to begin with- being the ward of Hoster Tully and growing up with Cat Stark and Lysa Arryn. He was just from a minor house without a lot of influence, and is REALLY bitter about it. No way he gets where he was without the connections he had with the Tullys, etc. It was Lysa who got Jon Arryn to give him a post at kings landing as an official- he didn't get there "on his own."

The only characters who legitimately got into positions of power from "nothing" are Varys (started as a slave), Melisandre (same), and Davos Seaworth (a smuggler- and that cost him the fingers on his right hand).

Yes, he had some connections. It was still a very steep climb.
From your list of people, I would only agree on Varys. Melisandre moved up inside a religion, which is easier in my opinion, especially because of her powers. Davos on the other hand just did his job, smuggling, and got rewarded big time from Stannis. He wasn't very cunning to get where he is.
 
My thoughts in bold for the first part

Sansa- whose lies were directly responsible for myca and lady being executed, because she was caught up in a princess fantasy
Sansa is super hateable at the beginning but you have some forgiveness because she's a dumb kid who doesn't want bad things to happen to people. Far cry from being the one who pushes a little boy out of a window and expects him to die on impact.

Cat Stark- who hung and killed (?) Pod Payne because Fuck Lannisters That's Why
I'd say it was justified from her POV. Fuck the Lannisters.

Jeor Mormont- who allowed craster to use his own daughters as brood mares, and feed(?) male infants to the Others, because it was convenient for the Night's Watch
Unless you believe everybody should be a vigilante, this is a supremely weak argument. Mormont doesn't have authority over Craster, and if he kills Craster these women have nowhere to go and nobody to look after them. Is Mormont supposed to provide for them too, considering there can be no women at the wall?

Arya Stark- who kills a teen servant escaping king's landing, has Jaquen kill two more servants at Harrenhall just because, leaves the Hound to die a slow death despite the fact that he saved her from a grisly death at the Red Wedding, and kills at least one other individual as part of a trial for the Faceless men
Again, she's a kid so there's some bit of forgiveness. She's been dealt a pretty shitty hand overall. I wouldn't say she's worse than Jaime, but a different yet similar shade of grey.

Danerys Targaryen- who let her dragons run wild, burn children alive, and eat them out of negligence
Truth. Dany is a monster and needs to be put down.

Theon Greyjoy- who kills two random common boys to cover up the fact that he can't find Bran and Rickon
Also a monster, but he's obviously paid for it big time. Fate worse than death in a some ways.

Loras Tyrell- who kills three of his own men, distraught that Renly is dead
Jaime kills a bunch of Ned's men, distraught that his brother is kidnapped, not even dead. Can't imagine Loras is worse on this count.

Stannis- who assassinated his own brother via melisandre's magic (i.e. the throne was "his" despite no one wanting him as king) and was "likely" to kill his nephew Edric Storm for power to gain the throne
Stannis is pretty difficult to defend, agreed. Special place in hell for kinslayers.

Robert Baratheon- who approved of Tywin lannister's murder of Rhaegar's wife and children, and sent assassination attempts after Danerys when he found out she was pregnant
Robert was horrible obviously.

And those are just the people with Redeeming qualities. There's not even a need to bring up complete shitstains like Illyn Payne, Gregor Clegane, Roose Bolton, Ramsay Snow, Janos Slynt, Aerys Targaryen, and yes, Littlefinger for reasons I've already gone into.

There are no people with clean hands (ned aside), just various shades of Grey within the story. As these things go, 95% of the cast is worse than Jamie Lannister, who at least when he does shitty things, does them for others and not out of self interest. Littlefinger is one of those people that does a TON of shitty things entirely out of self interest, so saying "well, people like Jamie and he tried to kill Bran and that's the same" entirely miss the point, ignoring context, motivation, and behavioral patterns between the characters.

It's laughable to say that Jaime does things for others and not out of self interest. Throwing Bran out the window wasn't purely for Cersei's benefit. Killing the king saved a bunch of people probably, but it also saved himself. He absolutely would've killed Brienne in their first fight given the chance, out of self-interest. He's just as self-interested as everyone else, but his strong point is he can admit when he is. His turn is that he wants to leave a better legacy for himself and stop living down to the rumors about him.



wow, this is revisionist. Littlefinger is THE reason Ned is dead. he convinced him he would have the support of the city watch and led him straight into a trap.

I'd say THIS is revisionist. Ned, more than anybody, is the reason Ned is dead. Littlefinger has a tendency to set up a lot of dominoes, but it's not like these people have no free will. Ned, Sansa, Joffrey, etc. all have a pretty big part in being responsible for Ned's death, to varying degrees. Littlefinger isn't clean but I think saying he had Ned killed is giving him way too much credit for other peoples' stupidity.

The only person in the series that's worse than this dude is Joffrey, but at least his excuse is being immature and insane.

I'd say Ramsay Snow and several others are a fair bit worse than Littlefinger as well.

Like I said, Littlefinger tends to simply set up the dominoes and then watch gleefully as they fall. His explicit, direct involvement in murder is (as far as I recall) Lysa, who totally deserved it. The poisoning of Joffrey I think is more Tyrell than Littlefinger, though it certainly wasn't something LF would mind. I think the Tyrell's didn't want their daughter married to a complete monster.
 

apana

Member
Let me put this another way. Jaime Lannister has one (well, maybe two if you count killing Ned's men in king's landing) "despicable" act. A failed murder attempt against Bran Stark, with the justification that his life and the lives of his sister and children were potentially forfeit if Bran reported what he saw.

Let's compare this to:

Sansa- whose lies were directly responsible for myca and lady being executed, because she was caught up in a princess fantasy
Cat Stark- who hung and killed (?) Pod Payne because Fuck Lannisters That's Why
Jeor Mormont- who allowed craster to use his own daughters as brood mares, and feed(?) male infants to the Others, because it was convenient for the Night's Watch
Arya Stark- who kills a teen servant escaping king's landing, has Jaquen kill two more servants at Harrenhall just because, leaves the Hound to die a slow death despite the fact that he saved her from a grisly death at the Red Wedding, and kills at least one other individual as part of a trial for the Faceless men
Danerys Targaryen- who let her dragons run wild, burn children alive, and eat them out of negligence
Theon Greyjoy- who kills two random common boys to cover up the fact that he can't find Bran and Rickon
Loras Tyrell- who kills three of his own men, distraught that Renly is dead
Stannis- who assassinated his own brother via melisandre's magic (i.e. the throne was "his" despite no one wanting him as king) and was "likely" to kill his nephew Edric Storm for power to gain the throne
Robert Baratheon- who approved of Tywin lannister's murder of Rhaegar's wife and children, and sent assassination attempts after Danerys when he found out she was pregnant

And those are just the people with Redeeming qualities. There's not even a need to bring up complete shitstains like Illyn Payne, Gregor Clegane, Roose Bolton, Ramsay Snow, Janos Slynt, Aerys Targaryen, and yes, Littlefinger for reasons I've already gone into.

There are no people with clean hands (ned aside), just various shades of Grey within the story. As these things go, 95% of the cast is worse than Jamie Lannister, who at least when he does shitty things, does them for others and not out of self interest. Littlefinger is one of those people that does a TON of shitty things entirely out of self interest, so saying "well, people like Jamie and he tried to kill Bran and that's the same" entirely miss the point, ignoring context, motivation, and behavioral patterns between the characters.

I agree he is not as despicable as the characters who are essentially sociopaths and monsters and this is a complicated world. However saying that 95 percent are worse and using those examples with the exception of Theon is a bit of a stretch. Besides Jaime in pushing Bran is covering for mistakes he himself caused. He had an affair with the queen and cuckolded the King knowing the consequences. It's not like he was just placed in that situation. Also he isn't just pushing any kid. Jaime is the son of Tywin Lannister and he is attempting to take the life of the son of Ned Stark. It is an act that can lead to war and many more dead than him and his family. To sum it up he directly attempts to commit the murder of a child in order to cover up his own foul acts and by doing so plays with the fates of two kingdoms. To me it cheapens Jaime's character if we try and justify his previous actions. Part of the beauty of his journey is that he is coming out of a very dark place and trying to regain his own sense of honor.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
The only person in the series that's worse than this dude is Joffrey, but at least his excuse is being immature and insane.
Ramsay and the Mountain? But yeah otherwise I agree. People rooting for Littlefinger make me shake my head, but people actually defending him are just... wow.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Isn't it similar to people rooting for Walter White in Breaking Bad?
[Breaking Bad spoilers, all seasons]
I wouldn't say that, because while Walter White is a piece of shit and you shouldn't root for him either, he starts off as more sympathetic (dying man, just wants to provide for his family, desperate, blah blah) and then turns into a cold-blooded murderer and kingpin. If you're rooting for him, you should really ask yourself why.
 
Ramsay and the Mountain? But yeah otherwise I agree. People rooting for Littlefinger make me shake my head, but people actually defending him are just... wow.

Littlefinger's an extremely admirable guy... wouldn't say I'd be rooting for him though. Its the same as Tywin in a way, except he's generally not respected nearly as much because people don't know the things he's done. There's no songs about Littlefinger (yet :p)
 

Moff

Member
Here's a thought with the whole R + L = J

Lets say this is true. Do you think Varys and Illerio know? We're certainly led to believe the only living person who would know would be Howland Reed, but Vary's does have eyes and ears everywhere.

I never quite got the R+L=J theory

the only real evidence is that lysa named jon after her husband and her other son after robert.
and yes, I know what you think. aerys II had a son with his hands wife, too but I just dont see robert having a kid with lysa. why would ned agree to take him? it doesnt make sense to me.
 
I never quite got the R+L=J theory

the only real evidence is that lysa named jon after her husband and her other son after robert.
and yes, I know what you think. aerys II had a son with his hands wife, too but I just dont see robert having a kid with lysa. why would ned agree to take him? it doesnt make sense to me.

Lysa? Lyanna, man.
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
I never quite got the R+L=J theory

the only real evidence is that lysa named jon after her husband and her other son after robert.
and yes, I know what you think. aerys II had a son with his hands wife, too but I just dont see robert having a kid with lysa. why would ned agree to take him? it doesnt make sense to me.

lol what are you talking about.
 

TCRS

Banned
I never quite got the R+L=J theory

the only real evidence is that lysa named jon after her husband and her other son after robert.
and yes, I know what you think. aerys II had a son with his hands wife, too but I just dont see robert having a kid with lysa. why would ned agree to take him? it doesnt make sense to me.

hahaha robert and lysa. goddamn. :D

R+L=J refers to Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon.
 
I never quite got the R+L=J theory

the only real evidence is that lysa named jon after her husband and her other son after robert.
and yes, I know what you think. aerys II had a son with his hands wife, too but I just dont see robert having a kid with lysa. why would ned agree to take him? it doesnt make sense to me.

I had a hearty chuckle from this.
 

Lothar

Banned
Isn't it similar to people rooting for Walter White in Breaking Bad?

Walter's more similar to Jaime than Littlefinger, a person who does horrible things in the name of protecting his family.

Hell, I see Walter as more easy to root for than Tyrion at this point. Killing Shae to me is less understandable than anything Walt did.
 

Aiii

So not worth it
Walter's more similar to Jaime than Littlefinger, a person who does horrible things in the name of protecting his family.

Hell, I see Walter as more easy to root for than Tyrion at this point. Killing Shae to me is less understandable than anything Walt did.

Walter S1 and half-way through 2? Perhaps.

Anything past that? No. By S5 I can't think of very many redeeming qualities to the man anymore.
(not really spoilers, but tagging none-the-less)
 
Walter's more similar to Jaime than Littlefinger, a person who does horrible things in the name of protecting his family.

Hell, I see Walter as more easy to root for than Tyrion at this point. Killing Shae to me is less understandable than anything Walt did.

You clearly buy Walter's BS.
 

Lothar

Banned
Walter S1 and half-way through 2? Perhaps.

Anything past that? No. By S5 I can't think of very many redeeming qualities to the man anymore.
(not really spoilers, but tagging none-the-less)

Breaking Bad
Poisoning Brock = Throwing Bran out of a window. The lives of his son and his infant daughter were threatened. Just as with Jaime, he thinks if he doesn't do this, his whole family might end up dead.

Letting Jane die. In his mind, Jesse is his family and she was killing him. It's terrible without a doubt, but it's easy to understand why he would not want to save her life.

Killing Mike. I know we all liked Mike, but it's hard to see this as some evil unforgivable act considering this is the same Mike who was going to kill Walt at the end of the season 3.
 
The blue flower in the wall reference was a dead giveaway that something of Lyanna's is at the Wall. A child is the most reasonable conclusion. And given the uncertainty of Jon's background it is also reasonable to assume that child is him.
 
I've spent too much time reading this...

The Winterfell Huis Clos
After the Starks are gone, in exile or in the grave, George Martin's Song of Ice and Fire brings us back to Winterfell for a story of tension and confinement. Only four chapters starting with a wedding and ending with an escape.

The drama involves what are, after all, secondary characters, largely untouched by our emotional attachment. We hardly recognize the family home where the story started. Nevertheless, we watch events unfold with the vague hope that some justice will be restored.

Our witness, our mediator, is a broken man, deeply tormented by guilt, deranged by psychological and physical torture, and little invested in the events around him. All this makes for a queer reading, uncharacteristic of what we see in the other parts of the story.

And little seems to happen. As our eyes expect a resolution, our minds are only left with an enigmatic letter received at the Wall.

This poor reader fell into the psychological trap of feeling challenged by the letter. One observation led to another, and I found myself having written fifteen thousand words, and still feeling superficial. So I embarked in a study of the whole Winterfell huis clos in the hope I wouldn't feel compelled to enlarge the scope of investigation to the whole series of books.
Intro: http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/HuisClos.html
Contents: http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Contents.html
(might have to reduce the font size)

This is an exhaustive look at my favorite part of ADWD (and most anticipated part of TWOW): the Winterfell wedding, the Northern plot to oust the Boltons, Stannis' campaign, and the Hooded Man. Despite its length it never really goes into "crackpot" territory thanks to focusing on quotes from the book rather than pure speculation.

It's often forgotten that Martin is a pretty good horror writer (Fevre Dream is a great book). He doesn't use horror/suspense motifs often, but the chapters where he does - Bran's Rat King chapter in ASOS, the buildup and execution of the Red Wedding - are quite chilling. The claustrophobic atmosphere of dread surrounding Winterfell in ADWD was so thick. You can tell a lot of people are about to be slaughtered.
 

CassSept

Member
You can say what you want about ADWD, but the Winterfell scenes with Theon were terrific, among the best of the entire series. The atmosphere GRRM has built during the entire arc was really amazing. Generally I think Theon's ADWD arc might even be the best of the series. Essos brought the whole thing down, but when it came back to north it was good, and Theon was the pinnacle of it all.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Walter's more similar to Jaime than Littlefinger, a person who does horrible things in the name of protecting his family.
You clearly buy Walter's BS.
LOL, this. [BB mini spoilers]
I think Walter himself bought his own BS for a while, but I dare hope he's a bit more honest about himself nowadays.

Hell, I see Walter as more easy to root for than Tyrion at this point. Killing Shae to me is less understandable than anything Walt did.
[BB S2]
Uhhh Jane? That was the moral event horizon, really. Jane wasn't a threat; she just wanted Jesse to have the money he was entitled to. Jane had Jesse's interests in mind more than Walt did, really. He let her die just because she was inconvenient.


Getting off topic here though, sorry...
 
LOL, this. [BB mini spoilers]
I think Walter himself bought his own BS for a while, but I dare hope he's a bit more honest about himself nowadays.


[BB S2]
Uhhh Jane? That was the moral event horizon, really. Jane wasn't a threat; she just wanted Jesse to have the money he was entitled to. Jane had Jesse's interests in mind more than Walt did, really. He let her die just because she was inconvenient.


Getting off topic here though, sorry...

That was a tipping point for me, too. I almost stopped watching.
 

Lothar

Banned
LOL, this. [BB mini spoilers]
I think Walter himself bought his own BS for a while, but I dare hope he's a bit more honest about himself nowadays.


[BB S2]
Uhhh Jane? That was the moral event horizon, really. Jane wasn't a threat; she just wanted Jesse to have the money he was entitled to. Jane had Jesse's interests in mind more than Walt did, really. He let her die just because she was inconvenient.


Getting off topic here though, sorry...

That's still not as bad as the premediated murder of a girl for lying.
Walt honestly believed that Jane was going to get Jesse killed. It's probably even the truth considering that she OD'd the same night she said they were going to quit forever.
 

ZeroRay

Member
BB Spoilers
After a certain point, Walt didn't actually give a fuck about his family and only tried to maintain one to suit the constructed image of himself.
 

Hachimaki

Member
Probably has been discussed a lot here in this thread, but recently been re-reading through ASoS and finished reading the Bran chapter about the Knight of the Laughing Tree. From what I'm reading Lyanna seems to be a popular guess as the KotLT. Would also explain how Rhaegar came to meet with Lyanna.

Though what's the consensus here about who it really was?

Lyanna? Brandon? Eddard? Howland Reed?
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
Probably has been discussed a lot here in this thread, but recently been re-reading through ASoS and finished reading the Bran chapter about the Knight of the Laughing Tree. From what I'm reading Lyanna seems to be a popular guess as the KotLT. Would also explain how Rhaegar came to meet with Lyanna.

Though what's the consensus here about who it really was?

Lyanna? Brandon? Eddard? Howland Reed?

Ned himself compares Arya to Lyanna, implying she knew something of arms. But the fact the Knight had a booming voice I think rules her out.
 

flyover

Member
Ned himself compares Arya to Lyanna, implying she knew something of arms. But the fact the Knight had a booming voice I think rules her out.
Could be. I still think it's her. Just makes the most sense to me. I think the voice was an affectation, enhanced by being helmeted.
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
I think it was Howland himself. Thinking it unsporting to fight children, he fought the knights they squired for. He was one of only two people to survive the fight at the Tower of Joy, so I think he is clearly an exceptional fighter.
 

Snake

Member
GRRM wants you to think that Howland Reed has strange powers. He gives you hints in showing his son Jojen and his strange abilities. Then he places Howland as a key figure in two mythical scenarios which could have only been resolved with some kind of unknown power/strength: the Tourney at Harrenhal and the Tower of Joy. So if that's what he wants you to think, you have to dig deeper to find the truth.

We must surmise, therefore, that Lyanna is the one who had the power. She skinchanged into a man to become the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and again to prevent Arthur Dayne from killing Ned (the jarring nature of this also made her childbirth terminal). Her abilities are the precedent for the Stark children's skinchanging powers. Whereas Howland's children have no similar predisposition to that, only Jojen's greenseeing.



I don't actually subscribe to this theory but I do think Lyanna was the KotLT. And this is the most entertaining way to explain why her booming voice was not recognized as a woman's.
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
Ned himself compares Arya to Lyanna, implying she knew something of arms. But the fact the Knight had a booming voice I think rules her out.
But then they heard a roar. ‘That’s my father’s man you’re kicking,’ howled the she-wolf.”
“A wolf on four legs, or two?”
“Two,” said Meera. “The she-wolf laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all."

I think it was her. The mismatched armour rules out the male Starks and Howland had probably never ridden a horse before.
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
GRRM wants you to think that Howland Reed has strange powers. He gives you hints in showing his son Jojen and his strange abilities. Then he places Howland as a key figure in two mythical scenarios which could have only been resolved with some kind of unknown power/strength: the Tourney at Harrenhal and the Tower of Joy. So if that's what he wants you to think, you have to dig deeper to find the truth.

We must surmise, therefore, that Lyanna is the one who had the power. She skinchanged into a man to become the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and again to prevent Arthur Dayne from killing Ned (the jarring nature of this also made her childbirth terminal). Her abilities are the precedent for the Stark children's skinchanging powers. Whereas Howland's children have no similar predisposition to that, only Jojen's greenseeing.



I don't really subscribe to this theory but it's the only way I can explain the KotLT's voice aside from "Lyanna could do a good impression of a man!"

I don't know if the Tower of the Hand counts as a mythical scenarios. It was 7 on 3. The three were incredibly skilled, but no doubt Ned brought his 6 best men with him. Howland surviving shows his skill, moreso than Ned I think, because no doubt the 6 would have been protecting Ned since they were all sworn to him.
 

CassSept

Member
I think it was Howland himself. Thinking it unsporting to fight children, he fought the knights they squired for. He was one of only two people to survive the fight at the Tower of Joy, so I think he is clearly an exceptional fighter.

I think it's suggested through the entire series that Howland isn't really, per se, an exceptional fighter.

However he was very skilled at crannogmen way of fighting, which means he is quite nimble, agile, and uses poisons, nets and so forth.

I guess it's debatable how you interpret "an exceptional fighter". If you take it as pure fighting skill, then Howland was likely not quite cream of the crop, but if you include pure situational awareness, use of tools and so on, that definitely elevates his abilities.
 

ahoyhoy

Unconfirmed Member
I don't know if the Tower of the Hand counts as a mythical scenarios. It was 7 on 3. The three were incredibly skilled, but no doubt Ned brought his 6 best men with him. Howland surviving shows his skill, moreso than Ned I think, because no doubt the 6 would have been protecting Ned since they were all sworn to him.

I don't believe Ned brought his best men in terms of fighting at arms per se, but instead brought his most trusted companions he understood would fight alongside him to the last (and potentially keep a secret, if Ned did indeed catch wind of Lyanna's pregnancy before setting off for the Tower of Joy)
 
Could be. I still think it's her. Just makes the most sense to me. I think the voice was an affectation, enhanced by being helmeted.

Agreed, I believe it was her. The Reeds were quite surprised that Bran hadn't heard the story, and they mentioned that Howland found it quite sad.

I think Lyanna was the knight, and it played a role in Benjen joining the NW. He armed the knight with armor and a horse that he found. If not for this ruse, Lyanna might have never fallen in love with Rhaegar, and I think Benjen blamed himself for his sister's death, thus leading to him joining the NW in shame.
 

Trasher

Member
Agreed, I believe it was her. The Reeds were quite surprised that Bran hadn't heard the story, and they mentioned that Howland found it quite sad.

I think Lyanna was the knight, and it played a role in Benjen joining the NW. He armed the knight with armor and a horse that he found. If not for this ruse, Lyanna might have never fallen in love with Rhaegar, and I think Benjen blamed himself for his sister's death, thus leading to him joining the NW in shame.

Damn, dude. Whenever you lay out stuff like this it makes so much sense.
 

Trasher

Member
Stuff like this is what makes me really worry for the show. They just can't get this deep with the story.

Kinda makes me wish they had waited to make the show until George finished the series.
 

Joni

Member
Yes, he allegedly joined right after Ned returned to Winterfell after Robert's Rebellion.

That is also the most logical point for Benjen to join the Night's Watch. Before the Rebellion his father is lord, but none of the three sons has a child. The start of the war leads to Rickard and Brandon being killed making Ned the lord and Benjen his heir. When Ned rides to war, he has a wife, but no heir yet. Benjen becomes the ruling lord of Winterfell for the duration of the rebellion. Once Robb is born and Ned returns, Winterfell has its lord back and has a male heir with a back-up in the form of Jon should something happen to Robb and Cat doesn't get anymore children. Benjen can safely join the NW.
 
Stuff like this is what makes me really worry for the show. They just can't get this deep with the story.

Kinda makes me wish they had waited to make the show until George finished the series.

Oh man, the series hasn't even outwardly introduce Lyanna and Rhaegar. Both were just mentioned in the first episode. Maybe because it's too obvious that R+L=J is true?
 
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