Possible but very very very unlikely, it was mostly being posted around as one of those really crazy theories with little to really back it up.
So no, it's almost 100% not true
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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
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Possible but very very very unlikely, it was mostly being posted around as one of those really crazy theories with little to really back it up.
So no, it's almost 100% not true
I still think we discarded Jojen being a secret Targaryen too soon.
Steelyuhas
Member
Although aware of it for some time now, this is something that I never would've even thought of without participating in a thread like this.
What I don't understand is why people keep making threads to discuss something about a currently airing TV show will very active OT(s).
Yeah, thanks to reading this thread it has made me realise that I just don't pay enough attention to what I'm reading, I think I go into autopilot when it's a descriptive paragraph rather than something dialogue heavy.
Definitely, I'm pretty sure that one is 100% true!
Yeah this thread has clued me in on to so many things I missed.
The Jojen/Pate theory, however, was not tipped off to me in here though. That was one of the very few I thought of myself as soon as I read the description of the "hooked nose". I was so proud!
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Jaquen/Pate, you mean? Jojen/Pate is a new one to me!
Yeah, that's one I also caught, although I've missed far more apparent stuff.
Yeah, that's one I also caught, although I've missed far more apparent stuff.
Summary Man
Member
Is the Jojen paste theory based solely on the fact that the paste looked like blood and Jojen wasn't there? Because that's some reaching...
Duh, why do you think Jojen is not there during Bran III? Bran's storyline is a little behind compared to the rest of the Wall, I mean they crossed paths with Sam on their way north. Since then the entire assault on the Wall happened, Stannis arriving, Stannis settling in. Only then did Sam set his way south, and even then he had several setbacks (Braavos, Aemon dying).
In the meantime, Brann and the pack reached CotF and while Bran started to learn his way around the Internet, CotF sent Jojen on a magical journey, realizing they will need help with understanding dragons as they had come to it, at last. The great battle of their time.
As going back to the Wall is deemed too dangerous, Jojen is sent to Oldtown to infiltrate the Maester's Citadel. There he befriends Pate who promises he will help him, only he doesn't know that Pate is actually Jaqen is actually Syrio. Right after that Sam arrives and their stories merge.
Jojen will actually be the prologue PoV of TWOW, it all makes sense. We need someone who wasn't a PoV character yet, should stay rather in the South and be connected to maesters (so we can keep the alternating order of the prologue chapters thus far). The chapter will end up with Jojen realizing a terrible truth about Dragons, Others, CotF and Jon Snow, only to wake up in the cavern (he was actually wargreendreaming, warging into greendreams, something like a time traveling teleportation) being ground into the paste by CotF. Scream, cut to black, back to the riveting story of Aeron I.
It also has to do with him knowing something really bad was coming for him.
Jojen paste is based on some of Bran's vision of seeing blood sacrifices at Heart Tree, that face that blood magic is powerful, There Bran and co already have eaten human flesh, some rather eerie description link the sap to blood, that Jojen goes "missing" before the ceremony and Meera is concerned about him giving up on life.
There is a lot of text that could support the theory. For me, I think that it is a)Jojen blood willing giving for the brew (aka he is not dead b)it is the sap/blood from the Three Eye Crow along with his acorn mush flesh, or c) it is a combination of Jojen blood and the TEC's nut flesh.
That and also that Jojen had been dreading getting there as if he knew he was going to be a necessary sacrifice to help Bran. He had accepted his fate though.
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
I have to say, most people missed the Jaqen/Pate thing because the plot points for that story were way disconnected in real time. Not only would you have to remember what Jaqen's new face looked like from ASoS, which might have been years prior, but you also have to remember what Pate's name from the prologue even was in the last Sam chapter, having read all sorts of pointless crap about Brienne in between.
I brought this up in another thread, but it is more appropriate here. What do book reader think about the Show bringing Reek into the show so early?
It was one of the better twist in the book. It looked that Theon killed at Winterfell, and later elude to that he was tortured to death by flaying ate the Dreadfort (the strip of skin sent to Asha). It make sense, he was mostly Stark and they were dropping like flies. It felt good when is plans turned on him and he got his just desserts. Then out of nowhere in DwD Reek appears.
I think it was just better story telling in the book to have him disappear for awhile, and return after the torture.
It was one of the better twist in the book. It looked that Theon killed at Winterfell, and later elude to that he was tortured to death by flaying ate the Dreadfort (the strip of skin sent to Asha). It make sense, he was mostly Stark and they were dropping like flies. It felt good when is plans turned on him and he got his just desserts. Then out of nowhere in DwD Reek appears.
I think it was just better story telling in the book to have him disappear for awhile, and return after the torture.
It was great story telling in the book that would translate poorly to TV. They did the right thing imo, though I wish there was more to the Theon scenes this season.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I agree except the "thinking Theon was dead" bit, I never believed he was truly dead. But you're right that the show kind of spoiled a large part of the Reek arc for those who have only read the books partially. It even made the gelding explicit, as opposed to subtle.
The show also spoiled some parts of ASoS in the earlier seasons, by showing Catelyn first confronting Jaime prematurely (S1) and then freeing him Jaime and seeing Jaime with Brienne in S2. I'm sure there are other examples, too, a friend of mine was reading each book per season but he decided to go ahead and read them all when he saw it wouldn't really match 1:1.
I'm guessing S4 will also show many scenes from AFFC and ADWD (probably Iron Island and/or Dorne stuff) and not just ASoS.
timetokill
Banned
Is anybody else pulling for Littlefinger? Just me?
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Hopefully just you.
The Albatross
Member
I liked it in the books, but shows cant work that way. You can't have a popular character just vanish that way. Plus, in the books, it's really in the air what happens to THeon. In the show, it just seems like he's knocked out and that's the end of it.
Revealing what happens to him under Ramsay's watch works for the show, and I think it'd be better than if they held off completely on Theon. Non-book readers are pissed off enough at the show, and if they just dropped Theon for potentially 4 seasons, introducing him 2 or 3 years later as some character that now nobody cares about would be difficult.
It was a great payoff in the books, though, but one that can't be built up over 9 episodes.. People would get really sick of it fast.
There was also other stuff, like in that chapter "the moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife". Jojen feels sick at the idea of eating acorn paste in one of the previous chapters. I don't think Jojen can just give his blood. There is something about the act of the sacrifice itself that has magical power.
There are a lot of interesting little hints in all the Bran ADWD chapters. For example the first time Bran meets Bloodraven, he asks him if he is the three eyed crow. Bloodraven responds,
"A....crow? Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." Bran is referring to his visions of the three eyed crow but Bloodraven is responding by saying he was a crow as in a member of the Night's Watch. I don't think Bloodraven ever refers to himself as the three eyed crow but he does repeat the old phrase "you will fly". Earlier in the chapter Meera asks one of the children of the forest if they are going to see the three eyed crow and she gets an interesting response.
"[...] He is waiting for you".
"The three-eyed crow?" asked Meera.
"The greenseer".
Manmademan
Member
Littlefinger is one of the few characters GRRM appears to be trying to make as unlikeable as humanly possible.
I am as well lol! I feel dirty.
I know he's a creep but I admire the he maneuvers everyone to accomplish his needs and wants, his creeping on Sansa is a downside though but it's no different to someone like Jaime who sleeps with his sister, had children with her and threw a kid out of a tower and yet people seem to like him.
I don't think show Littlefinger has helped in peoples viewpoints of him though, the extra air time he gets on it removes the mystery and Aiden Gillen makes him far too creepy rather than someone who tries to appear as if he's not really bothered with what's going on in front of him, I.E the times where he makes jokes at serious discussions.
Manmademan
Member
totally different, imho.
Jaime sleeping with his sister is a bit odd, but apparently not unheard of. Tywin married his cousin, and the targaryens apparently did it as well, though they tended to go mad from it now and then. Those two at least DID have genuine affection for each other as well with no other options. Cersei was in a political marriage with someone she hated (and cheated on her constantly with numerous children out of wedlock) and Jaime was made kingsguard by Aerys, banning him from marriage, having heirs, or inheriting property.
The big issue wasn't sleeping with his sister, but adultery with the kings wife. Getting discovered didn't just mean embarrassment, but death for him, cersei, joffrey, tommen, and myrcella. Kicking bran out of a window is really the only option there.
Jaime also goes through his own personal hell after being held prisoner and losing an arm, redeems himself a bit through the background of WHY he killed aerys, his friendship with brienne, AND finally kicking cersei to the curb when he sees how far gone she is.
Littlefinger in comparison is a creepy, manipulative Dick just because he enjoys it.
Watching Little Finger is like watching a train. The train he has built is amazing, how he can switch tracks at a moments notice, how he can make new station, pick up new passengers and get ride of old ones to suit his schedule. You want see out of morbid curiosity him reach his destination, yet him going off the rail would be as equally satisfying.
I'm sorry but saying that other people do it does not mean it's ok. Littlefinger hasn't actually done anything yet, he did betray Ned but he offered the chance to Ned but Ned was too honourable and decided Stannis was the rightful King, Littlefinger realised this wouldn't be good for him and acted. He hasn't done anything to Sansa yet. Also, the only option was to throw Bran out of the tower? Cersei said it wasn't afterwards. I find it strange that because Jaime has had a redemptive arc it means that people are willing to forgive him for the evil acts he has done.
Littlefinger isn't doing it because hes evil and enjoys it, we don't know what his motivation definitely is, it could be Sansa or it could be he likes playing the game or wants to rule Westeros.
EDIT:
I like this a lot ^^
I like Littlefinger because of how he moves the pieces around but I would equally enjoy seeing how he comes unstuck (and also expect it to be honest.)
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
I don't really care for Littlefinger. He's not that smart. While he's great at adapting to changing situations, he seems to have little in the way of a long term plan, and just makes shit up as he goes.
Like the knife. He had no clue it was Joffrey, but he used the situation to his advantage, but it's not something he ever expected. I think his only real plan thus far is to screw up what Varys is doing. Varys and Illerio didn't want the Lannisters and Starks warring (yet). Joffrey being killed to give Sansa time to escape, Robert being killed by Cersei, etc. His entire plan so far has been to create chaos when he can and roll with it, rather than planning things out.
It's actually one issue I have with the show, is that they've made him out to be an equal to Varys, and Varys pisses on Littlefinger from great heights.
Like the knife. He had no clue it was Joffrey, but he used the situation to his advantage, but it's not something he ever expected. I think his only real plan thus far is to screw up what Varys is doing. Varys and Illerio didn't want the Lannisters and Starks warring (yet). Joffrey being killed to give Sansa time to escape, Robert being killed by Cersei, etc. His entire plan so far has been to create chaos when he can and roll with it, rather than planning things out.
It's actually one issue I have with the show, is that they've made him out to be an equal to Varys, and Varys pisses on Littlefinger from great heights.
Manmademan
Member
it's a cultural thing. whether it's "ok" is up for debate, but it does have precedent among ruling families.
wow, this is revisionist. Littlefinger is THE reason Ned is dead. he convinced him he would have the support of the city watch and led him straight into a trap.
Littlefinger is the one who lies to cat stark about Tyrion being the one who attempted to assassinate Bran, setting up the events where cat arrests him and starts the stark/lannister conflict.
Littlefinger was also the person who manipulated lysa arryn into poisoning her husband by faking affection for her, then killed her once she had outlived her usefulness. He's ALSO implied to be responsible for poisoning joffrey along with the tyrells and letting Tyrion take the fall for it.
The only person in the series that's worse than this dude is Joffrey, but at least his excuse is being immature and insane.
cersei says a lot of things. and no, there isn't really a good option when someone catches you banging the queen. Jamie has ONE evil act, and that's done out of love for his sister and his kids. this is nowhere close to the crap littlefinger pulls for power or profit.
apologies for the formatting, I'm on my phone
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
Littlefingers Motivations
1. Fuck Catelyn
2. If 1 isn't possible, fuck someone like Catelyn, Sansa
3. Bring nobles and royals down through manipulation and other means. Littlefinger obviously has resentment being born on the smallest of the fingers, to a not very well off family, and when he asked Lord Tully if he could marry Catelyn he got brushed off because of his standing. It is obvious he likes to fuck with nobles and royalty. He is the come from nothing type of person, but really I can't say that completely since the only reason he got to squire at Riverrun was because of his father.
1. Fuck Catelyn
2. If 1 isn't possible, fuck someone like Catelyn, Sansa
3. Bring nobles and royals down through manipulation and other means. Littlefinger obviously has resentment being born on the smallest of the fingers, to a not very well off family, and when he asked Lord Tully if he could marry Catelyn he got brushed off because of his standing. It is obvious he likes to fuck with nobles and royalty. He is the come from nothing type of person, but really I can't say that completely since the only reason he got to squire at Riverrun was because of his father.
No, not really. Even if it was it wouldn't excuse the action. He is 100 percent responsible for a truly despicable act. I think it is unforgivable in my opinion. That is one of the reasons I don't feel bad about what happened to him. He is one of my favorite characters though. I think a character can be a horrible person but you can still like him from the perspective of what he brings to the story. Jaime does evil things but he is also trying to walk away from his past life. That is what fascinates me about him. Victarion is a barbaric thug in almost every single way but still a very badass and awesome character.
Manmademan
Member
agreed on the motivations there. Littlefinger is a Lord, just not an important one with few holdings. the only "come from nothing" character of note is probably Davos seaworth.
edit: eh, and melisandre.
He is the Lord of Harrenhal and Lord Protector of the Vale if I'm right? Considering he's come from nothing that's pretty good going.
I can't say I like Littlefinger as a person. He's pretty much scum in the long run, but he is incredibly intelligent. More so than Varys imo. The only one who seems to have an inkling of how dangerous Littlefinger can be is Tyrion and even he has no idea of how much shit Littlefinger is responsible for. It seems like he wants to tear down everyone of the current (major) nobility and at the very least become lord of the vale and the north through marriage with Sansa. I honestly don't think he'll succeed with whatever ambition he has, but I can also imagine that he ends up better off than before.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Makes sense-- I read the first four books back-to-back.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I really want to see what his end game is. We pretty much know what Varys' hand is, and the plan is in effect; Aegon is his piece in the game. Meanwhile Sansa is Littlefinger's piece but we don't exactly know how it will play out. Given Aegon's arrival, how does that impact the "War of the Three Queens" LF hinted at?
HeavenlyStriker
Member
the biggest mystery in ADWD
is jon snow's fate.
i don't understand GRRM making jon the focal point of this north/wall business, developing him into a strong yet humble leader, amassing a huge army, rebuilding the wall, ready to retake winterfell...only to have it taken all away from him in the end...?
and what happened to jon was witnessed by everyone so you know GRRM is setting up for some kind of dire/hopeless situation at the wall where the wildings and nightwatchers are going at each other's throats.
what does GRRM has in store for jon snow?
i don't understand GRRM making jon the focal point of this north/wall business, developing him into a strong yet humble leader, amassing a huge army, rebuilding the wall, ready to retake winterfell...only to have it taken all away from him in the end...?
and what happened to jon was witnessed by everyone so you know GRRM is setting up for some kind of dire/hopeless situation at the wall where the wildings and nightwatchers are going at each other's throats.
what does GRRM has in store for jon snow?
also why did jon store the 2 willdings bodies in the ice cell? some kind of foreshadowing?
and is there a significance with his burned hand itching at certain times?
another thing, we know brienne has ned's broken valyrian sword, and is heading toward north to find sansa, is it possible the sword may will find its way to the wall and jon yea...?
and is there a significance with his burned hand itching at certain times?
another thing, we know brienne has ned's broken valyrian sword, and is heading toward north to find sansa, is it possible the sword may will find its way to the wall and jon yea...?
That would probably be the saddest thing ever for me. I think it's just because he's so innocent and has gone on this suicide mission without even really comprehending the gravity of it all.
Steelyuhas
Member
Doesn't sound possible.
fallengorn
Bitches love smiley faces
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Hodor:
O, I die, Bran;
The potent poison quite o'er-crows my spirit:
I cannot live to hear the news from Winterfell;
But I do prophesy the election lights
On Jon Snow: he has my dying voice;
So tell him, with the occurrents, more and less,
Which have solicited. The rest is silence.
Manmademan
Member
Let me put this another way. Jaime Lannister has one (well, maybe two if you count killing Ned's men in king's landing) "despicable" act. A failed murder attempt against Bran Stark, with the justification that his life and the lives of his sister and children were potentially forfeit if Bran reported what he saw.
Let's compare this to:
Sansa- whose lies were directly responsible for myca and lady being executed, because she was caught up in a princess fantasy
Cat Stark- who hung and killed (?) Pod Payne because Fuck Lannisters That's Why
Jeor Mormont- who allowed craster to use his own daughters as brood mares, and feed(?) male infants to the Others, because it was convenient for the Night's Watch
Arya Stark- who kills a teen servant escaping king's landing, has Jaquen kill two more servants at Harrenhall just because, leaves the Hound to die a slow death despite the fact that he saved her from a grisly death at the Red Wedding, and kills at least one other individual as part of a trial for the Faceless men
Danerys Targaryen- who let her dragons run wild, burn children alive, and eat them out of negligence
Theon Greyjoy- who kills two random common boys to cover up the fact that he can't find Bran and Rickon
Loras Tyrell- who kills three of his own men, distraught that Renly is dead
Stannis- who assassinated his own brother via melisandre's magic (i.e. the throne was "his" despite no one wanting him as king) and was "likely" to kill his nephew Edric Storm for power to gain the throne
Robert Baratheon- who approved of Tywin lannister's murder of Rhaegar's wife and children, and sent assassination attempts after Danerys when he found out she was pregnant
And those are just the people with Redeeming qualities. There's not even a need to bring up complete shitstains like Illyn Payne, Gregor Clegane, Roose Bolton, Ramsay Snow, Janos Slynt, Aerys Targaryen, and yes, Littlefinger for reasons I've already gone into.
There are no people with clean hands (ned aside), just various shades of Grey within the story. As these things go, 95% of the cast is worse than Jamie Lannister, who at least when he does shitty things, does them for others and not out of self interest. Littlefinger is one of those people that does a TON of shitty things entirely out of self interest, so saying "well, people like Jamie and he tried to kill Bran and that's the same" entirely miss the point, ignoring context, motivation, and behavioral patterns between the characters.
Ned Stark was a nobody who kidnapped his innocent brother. He had that coming.
I also do, because he plays the game so well. He comes from a small unknown family with no money and no armies and look where he is now. He and Tyrion are my favorites.
edit: my avatar would be his banner if HBO would release one.
Manmademan
Member
yeah, that's why i said "maybe." He sort of had justification there, and later on (when discussing how he killed Aerys) we find there was bad blood between the two to begin with. I don't really consider that one a despicable act- but someone else might disagree.
no need for spoilers in this thread. Someone else here (I'm not sure who) brought up a good point. There's no way Jon stays dead- Melisandre is on the wall and is certainly powerful enough to bring him back at least once.
HOWEVER, Jon's vows as a member of the Night's Watch are only "till death" and being killed by his own men, then subsequently resurrected frees him from his vows. That means he can take a wife, inherit lands again, etc etc. Stannis also offered to legitimize him previously. It's speculated that he's not Ned's bastard, but the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna stark, and as such could certainly contest for the iron throne once released- especially with an army of wildings and giants under his command.
PhoenixDark
Banned
you don't need to use spoiler tags in this thread, unless it's for TWOW sample chapter discussion. Welcome!
Most people don't believe Jon is "dead" dead. The ADWD prologue sets the stage for that last Jon chapter by explaining the warging process. Melisandre has multiple visions about Jon, including one where he goes from man to wolf to man. She also says whenever she attempts to see Azor Ahai (Stannis, allegedly) in the flames, she only sees Jon.
Jon is either seriously injured and will be healed like Victarion, or he's "dead" and will warg into Ghost. Either way, Melisandre is going to "fix" him. This is the best way for Jon to be freed from his Night's Watch vows: if he were to die, his watch will have ended, thus freeing him to do...whatever he's supposed to do.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Here's a thought with the whole R + L = J
Lets say this is true. Do you think Varys and Illerio know? We're certainly led to believe the only living person who would know would be Howland Reed, but Vary's does have eyes and ears everywhere.
Lets say this is true. Do you think Varys and Illerio know? We're certainly led to believe the only living person who would know would be Howland Reed, but Vary's does have eyes and ears everywhere.
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