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[apana]

I have a lot of criticisms of the show, it could definitely be more accurate to the books, but I will always love it. The first episode of the first season was what got me instantly hooked. I think I enjoy the show more if I don't take it too seriously and see it as an extra. The main interest I have now is in seeing how they adapt some of my favorite moments. I was really fascinated to see what their approach to the Red Wedding would be like.

On a side note, speaking of the Red Wedding, did anyone else have a feeling beforehand that Robb was going to die? I had a strong feeling when I read about Dany's vision of a King with a wolf's head for the first time. The only difference is I thought Robb was going to die after capturing the Iron Throne.

 

[Samyy]

I realized since he had no POV chapters that he was probably not going to be a significant character in the story and therefore he could not be a king.

I did not expect what happened though...

 

[CitizenVectron]

I realized since he had no POV chapters that he was probably not going to be a significant character in the story and therefore he could not be a king.

I did not expect what happened though...

Nooo! You just made me think that Stannis might not end up on the throne.

 

[Blue Ninja]

Nooo! You just made me think that Stannis might not end up on the throne.

Stannis is gonna make some stupid decision down the line that'll turn everyone against him, and he'll end up being burned alive by Dany or Aegon.

Now that I've said it, it actually sounds quite realistic.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

That's bullshit. Book readers get to see the show from a totally different perspective and are perfectly able to judge the quality of the work.

Nope. Sorry. I've seen people in this thread complain about how changes to storylines wreck future story payoffs. Yet when those payoffs happen, show watchers react with shock and awe.

When you and your friend who has never heard of GRRM sit down to watch, you're experiencing two very different shows.

Even if I hadn't read the books, I'd still think that Dany's story is 80% cheesy exoticism, that the direction can get awfully dodgy at times, that many episodes rely too much on tell and not enough show.

Someone pointed out to me that Dany's storyline on the show so far is basically what George W Bush thought the Iraq war would be like, soldiers greeted as liberators and all. Plus, aside from perhaps Ygritte, she is the whitest white woman in all of Westeros and Essos, so there are uncomfortable echoes of Kipling-esque white-man's-burden-ism too.

 

[curlyfriski]

When you and your friend who has never heard of GRRM sit down to watch, you're experiencing two very different shows.

That doesn't mean one way of experiencing it is "right." They're both equally valid.

Someone pointed out to me that Dany's storyline on the show so far is basically what George W Bush thought the Iraq war would be like, soldiers greeted as liberators and all. Plus, aside from perhaps Ygritte, she is the whitest white woman in all of Westeros and Essos, so there are uncomfortable echoes of Kipling-esque white-man's-burden-ism too.

Yes, I think it's a pretty obvious parallel, but it doesn't stop both the show and the novels from falling into the same orientalist mindset.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

That doesn't mean one way of experiencing it is "right." They're both equally valid.

Not in the context of TV criticism they're not. The things that annoy you about the adaptation diminish it in your eyes, so you can't gauge how compelling an experience it would be for the majority of people. I've never seen The Wire and only ever saw the pilot of Breaking Bad, so I can't comment, but I don't see why comparing GoT favourably to these two shows is an invalid, insulting or laughable opinion.

Yes, I think it's a pretty obvious parallel, but it doesn't stop both the show and the novels from falling into the same orientalist mindset.

Fair enough.

 

[apana]

Nope. Sorry. I've seen people in this thread complain about how changes to storylines wreck future story payoffs. Yet when those payoffs happen, show watchers react with shock and awe.

When you and your friend who has never heard of GRRM sit down to watch, you're experiencing two very different shows.

Oh wow, now I'm convinced. Anyways I don't care if I am or am not perfectly qualified to evaluate the show. When there is something wrong I am just going to call it out. For example changing Jon's story significantly in season 2 was just a bad choice. We didn't get anything out of it. Knowing the story limits us in some ways but it's not like someone installs a chip in us that makes our criticism invalid. We can make comparisons and decide if changes were actually useful or necessary. This is all very personal anyways. It's not like all book readers arrive at the same conclusions. I can kind of see what you are getting at, I am just not a fan of blanket statements like that.

 

[Steelyuhas]

I realized since he had no POV chapters that he was probably not going to be a significant character in the story and therefore he could not be a king.

I did not expect what happened though...

None of the Kings have been POV's to this point. I think it was very intentional to place POVs very close to Kings, but not have any King POVs themselves, observing how Kings act, how others see them, and influencing them. Doesn't mean they aren't a major character.

 

[A More Normal Bird]

Cable TV seems to have passed the movies in terms of producing great drama.

EDIT - Also, as an aside, I was just thinking about the Northern Conspiracy and I hope whenever a Manderly or Umber or someone kills Roose Bolton they say something like "Jon Stark sends his regards."

I can't wait for the ten page description of Manderly eating Ramsay.

 

[Snake]

None of the Kings have been POV's to this point. I think it was very intentional to place POVs very close to Kings, but not have any King POVs themselves, observing how Kings act, how others see them, and influencing them. Doesn't mean they aren't a major character.

Except for Dany. Okay, Queen!

Not to mention the POVs for future king of Westeros Areo Hotah.

 

[curlyfriski]

Not in the context of TV criticism they're not. The things that annoy you about the adaptation diminish it in your eyes, so you can't gauge how compelling an experience it would be for the majority of people. I've never seen The Wire and only ever saw the pilot of Breaking Bad, so I can't comment, but I don't see why comparing GoT favourably to these two shows is an invalid, insulting or laughable opinion.

I think I have the objectivity necessary to consider how the TV show functions without letting fanboy irritations that things are different from what I'm familiar with get in the way. In fact, I would say familiarity with the source material is an advantage in that it makes me more conscious of the choices that the TV show is making, and the effect they're trying to create through these choices.

Being shocked by an unexpected development is nice, but it isn't that great a testament to the enduring quality of the work, and knowing what's going to happen doesn't mean you can't get invested in the experience. Psycho isn't a great movie because OMG PLOT TWIST, it's a great movie because Hitchcock is a master at building suspense. One of the problems I have with the show is that it relies too much on those SHOCKING MOMENTS (RW, Ned's execution), and in retrospect the rest of the episode feels like a way of marking time until we get to the next big shock.

Why do I think it's pretty far out there to compare Game of Thrones to the top TV shows? That's kind of hard to say without going too much into detail about the strengths of the shows I like better. One of Game of Thrones' problems is that it's a mostly faithful adaptation of a series of fantasy novels, so the show doesn't have the freedom to go its own path because it needs to stay in shouting distance of the plot of the novels. All of the (in my opinion) best television series use the format to great effect, while GOT is constantly trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Those other shows are also better acted and better paced and don't routinely feature sex scenes ripped straight out of a soft-core porno and don't make me roll my eyes nearly as often and don't feature Peter Dinklage's atrocious accent.

 

[Samyy]

None of the Kings have been POV's to this point. I think it was very intentional to place POVs very close to Kings, but not have any King POVs themselves, observing how Kings act, how others see them, and influencing them. Doesn't mean they aren't a major character.

Still, three of them died (Robb, Joff, Renly), odds are stacked against Stannis! Sure but it means that they wont end up on the iron throne at the end game at least, which means something happens to them along the way, doesn't have to be death.

 

[DrForester]

I don't put it past Stannis throwing in with Danny at some point. She's not rally an usurper to his throne. I don't think she's ever been mentioned or discussed to him, and I wonder if he knows about her at all.

 

[Apath]

Still, three of them died (Robb, Joff, Renly), odds are stacked against Stannis! Sure but it means that they wont end up on the iron throne at the end game at least, which means something happens to them along the way, doesn't have to be death.

Four. So I guess that makes Stannis the winner of the War of the Five Kings by elimination?

 

[apana]

Stannis is gonna make some stupid decision down the line that'll turn everyone against him, and he'll end up being burned alive by Dany or Aegon.

Now that I've said it, it actually sounds quite realistic.

Part of me can't shake the feeling that Stannis will die in Winds of Winter, losing to Ramsay is likely what no book reader wants or is expecting and so maybe George will go in that direction. My gut tells me that everything falls apart in the final two books, especially for the North. I don't quite remember Stannis's plan. He plans to win Winterfell, the North, and then march on the South? It would make more sense to prepare Winterfell as a stronghold guarding against the arrival of the Others. Winter has arrived and no way can the North muster up the strength to march on the South again.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I can't wait for the ten page description of Manderly eating Ramsay.

LOL. Would read!

 

[Unlucky]

I don't put it past Stannis throwing in with Danny at some point. She's not rally an usurper to his throne.

What? Stannis was a major player in the taking of the Targaryen throne. During the siege of Storm's End he would rather have starved than yielded, and would have if not for Davos Seaworth. They were almost at the point of eating their own dead.

 

[CitizenVectron]

Personally I think Stannis will end up giving up his claim to the throne and will instead become the de-facto Warden of the North and defend against the White Walkers. He will lose, and will die as a hero to the kingdom. The reason I think he will give up his claim is that he will finally complete his character progression and realize that the kingdom itself is more important that his claim, and that duty demands he save it rather than rule it.

 

[Samyy]

Four. So I guess that makes Stannis the winner of the War of the Five Kings by elimination?

I guess technically yes if we count Tommen as a new player and not as just the same piece as Joffrey, but I don't think we can do that.

Its was always essentially Lannister vs. the others and still remains that way.

 

[freddy]

If you've read the books, you aren't in any position to judge the quality of the TV show. The twists, turns and tension just aren't there for you in the same way as they are for show watchers.

Sorry.

There are quite a few people who watched a season or two of the show and then read the books.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Elio was on the Podcast Of Ice and Fire a couple weeks ago and made a couple interesting comments. First, he talked about the meeting Martin had with the HBO show runners a couple weeks ago in NM. According to his sources Benioff, Weiss, and HBO's execs are quite confident in Martin's progress. He's been making good progress with The Winds of Winter.

Also he confirmed that the World of Ice and Fire will reveal where Ned Stark's mom was from. This started after one of the hosts told Elio the theory about Ned's mom being from Skagos.

 

[Dresden]

If you've read the books, you aren't in any position to judge the quality of the TV show. The twists, turns and tension just aren't there for you in the same way as they are for show watchers.

Sorry.

That's a rather silly thing to say, considering that a show shouldn't just be about the shock factor. And outside of these twists, Game of Thrones is lacking as a production.

 

[desh]

Question: Did Bran warg into Summer and Shaggydog at the same time in the Red Wedding episode? If this is the case, is this how it happened in the books?

I was under the impression that he warged only into Summer, and that Shaggydog just followed Summer's lead.

Does Bloodraven skinchange into all those ravens at once?

 

[TestOfTide]

Personally I think Stannis will end up giving up his claim to the throne and will instead become the de-facto Warden of the North and defend against the White Walkers. He will lose, and will die as a hero to the kingdom. The reason I think he will give up his claim is that he will finally complete his character progression and realize that the kingdom itself is more important that his claim, and that duty demands he save it rather than rule it.

You forgot that Stannis is iron.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Elio was on the Podcast Of Ice and Fire a couple weeks ago and made a couple interesting comments. First, he talked about the meeting Martin had with the HBO show runners a couple weeks ago in NM. According to his sources Benioff, Weiss, and HBO's execs are quite confident in Martin's progress. He's been making good progress with The Winds of Winter.

Those are fantastic news.

Also he confirmed that the World of Ice and Fire will reveal where Ned Stark's mom was from. This started after one of the hosts told Elio the theory about Ned's mom being from Skagos.

Wait what?? Much as that World book sounds awesome, I want the novels to reveal this....? :S

Edit: oh, it'll reveal "where" she's from, not "who"... still uh, Lyanna's from Winterfell so.... hmm....

Edit: Derp, I totally read that as "Jon's mom" instead of "Ned's mom". *facepalm*

 

[Dresden]

You forgot that Stannis is iron.

He was, but the North has served as a sort of crucible for him.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Those are fantastic news.


Wait what?? Much as that World book sounds awesome, I want the novels to reveal this....? :S

Edit: oh, it'll reveal "where" she's from, not "who"... still uh, Lyanna's from Winterfell so.... hmm....

"Where" as in the House, I guess. I say that because there's a chance she's not from a northern house. If she was a Bolton, as many people believe, I feel we would have heard about it by now; same applies to Manderly, Umber, etc. But if she's from some tribe or "house" on Skagos...yeah.

The idea is that Skagos was in open rebellion against the Starks for some time, and perhaps after the conflict ended they formed a marriage union.

 

[Basileus777]

Ned's mother is not important, didn't GRRM outright state that many years ago? If it was important it wouldn't be revealed first in the world book.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

There are quite a few people who watched a season or two of the show and then read the books.

I'm among them. I LOVED the first season like a fat kid loves cake. I still do. I went in knowing nothing about the series and marathoned them over the course of two days.

Season 2 I didn't enjoy nearly as much, mostly because I knew how it would end, and the payoff (Blackwater) wasn't near as grand as what I'd pictured in my head.

It's the weight of expectation that the show can't live up to.

That's a rather silly thing to say, considering that a show shouldn't just be about the shock factor. And outside of these twists, Game of Thrones is lacking as a production.

It isn't about the shock factor, but that is one part of it. Teasing out the motivations of characters and trying to predict what would happen next in the intertwined political situation was half the fun of watching the first season for me. Knowing how it is supposed to go and having an interpretation in your head for how a character acts or what drives them, for instance, means that you experience disappointment when the same character on the show defies those expectations. See also: Weasel Soup.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Ned's mother is not important, didn't GRRM outright state that many years ago? If it was important it wouldn't be revealed first in the world book.

A fan asked him about it years ago and he refused to reveal her identity, so that pretty much made it "a thing" in the eyes of some fans. I don't think her identity will be truly important by any means but it could impact the story. For instance if his mom was from Skagos then Rickon's presence there would take on a different meaning. Everyone on the island would certainly recognize he was a Stark regardless, but if it's his grandmother's "house" then perhaps he might receive more support from the tribesman. Who knows.

But I definitely believe that we would know who she was if she was from some great northern house.

 

[Joni]

Still, three of them died (Robb, Joff, Renly), odds are stacked against Stannis! Sure but it means that they wont end up on the iron throne at the end game at least, which means something happens to them along the way, doesn't have to be death.

And Balon. Stannis is the only surviving king of the War of Five Kings.

 

[bone_and_sinew]

A fan asked him about it years ago and he refused to reveal her identity, so that pretty much made it "a thing" in the eyes of some fans. I don't think her identity will be truly important by any means but it could impact the story. For instance if his mom was from Skagos then Rickon's presence there would take on a different meaning. Everyone on the island would certainly recognize he was a Stark regardless, but if it's his grandmother's "house" then perhaps he might receive more support from the tribesman. Who knows.

But I definitely believe that we know who she was if she was from some great northern house.

Good point. Skagos sounds like a complete shithole from the Davos POV chapter in Dance. Osha is rather knowledgeable about northern territory, it didn't make sense to me for them to go to an allegedly really dangerous place; they'd be going from one nasty situation to another. But if he has kin there, then it's the safest place he could be until the turmoil in The North is resolved.

 

[A More Normal Bird]

Good point. Skagos sounds like a complete shithole from the Davos POV chapter in Dance. Osha is rather knowledgeable about northern territory, it didn't make sense to me for them to go to an allegedly really dangerous place; they'd be going from one nasty situation to another. But if he has kin there, then it's the safest place he could be until the turmoil in The North is resolved.

It's pretty weird how an island that big (assuming the wall is 300 miles long, Skagos is almost as long/wide as Ireland) can be that isolated/mysterious. It has unicorns and cannibals but apparently it's also got houses and lords and all that. It'll be interesting to see if we get a POV there in the next book or if GRRM decides to keep as much of that mystery as he can.

 

[Moff]

Wait what?? Much as that World book sounds awesome, I want the novels to reveal this....? :S

Edit: oh, it'll reveal "where" she's from, not "who"... still uh, Lyanna's from Winterfell so.... hmm....

lyanna? the world book will reveal neds mother, not jons mother

 

[Trojita]

Tommen is the Valonqar. He is the younger brother.

I'd lol if that was the case. Tommen being naive does something that causes Cersei to get killed.

 

[Dysun]

Tommen executes her for treason when Ser Pounce turns up dead

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

A fan asked him about it years ago and he refused to reveal her identity, so that pretty much made it "a thing" in the eyes of some fans. I don't think her identity will be truly important by any means but it could impact the story. For instance if his mom was from Skagos then Rickon's presence there would take on a different meaning. Everyone on the island would certainly recognize he was a Stark regardless, but if it's his grandmother's "house" then perhaps he might receive more support from the tribesman. Who knows.

But I definitely believe that we know who she was if she was from some great northern house.

I think Martin had usually said some variation of "Lady Stark. She died" and commented that he didn't even understand why people cared who Ned's mother was. I don't think there's any real importance to her, and the World book is a good place to reveal the Stark ancestry and get people to shut up about this once and for all.

 

[apana]

Does anyone else wish that some of this stuff has no explanation? For example I would hate it if there was an explanation for the direwolves and why they showed up. It is just supposed to be a sublime moment in the story. I remember George talking about it once and saying that the scene with the wolves just popped into his head one day out of nowhere and that is when he started writing this series

 

[CitizenVectron]

Guys, I found a leak from The World of Ice and Fire book. Here's the first entry:

1. Magic - People can use magic because of the midichlorians in their blood, which are intelligent microorganism symbiotes which live inside the blood of all living things.

 

[Fuu]

Finally caught up with all the books, I feel so liberated.

Terrible mistake to read 5 right after 4 though. Not that they aren't quality books, but these fuckers are massive and I didn't want to stop to start reading something else because I'd risk forgetting about too many details/characters, and there are too many being mentioned all the time.

 

[ToyMachine228]

Does anyone else wish that some of this stuff has no explanation? For example I would hate it if there was an explanation for the direwolves and why they showed up. It is just supposed to be a sublime moment in the story. I remember George talking about it once and saying that the scene with the wolves just popped into his head one day out of nowhere and that is when he started writing this series

There are certainly elements of the story that don't need to be explained and just left for the reader to fill in the blank. Not everything needs some deeper meaning or purpose.

 

[PhoenixDark]

It's pretty weird how an island that big (assuming the wall is 300 miles long, Skagos is almost as long/wide as Ireland) can be that isolated/mysterious. It has unicorns and cannibals but apparently it's also got houses and lords and all that. It'll be interesting to see if we get a POV there in the next book or if GRRM decides to keep as much of that mystery as he can.

I don't believe it's as fucked up as Davos made it sound. They have ports and thus trade, so there must be some type of social infrastructure there. The cannibalism thing could just be a rumor (similar to the "savage" rumors about Northerners). Or perhaps there are cannibals on the island alongside 'regular" northmen tribesman.

 

[Reyne]

I don't believe it's as fucked up as Davos made it sound. They have ports and thus trade, so there must be some type of social infrastructure there. The cannibalism thing could just be a rumor (similar to the "savage" rumors about Northerners). Or perhaps there are cannibals on the island alongside 'regular" northmen tribesman.

I agree with this. Basically, I think they are very insular, even though there is some activity on the isle, which is why nasty rumors are so easily spread about them. Some may be true, but they are probably way exaggerated, because you know, people loves trash-talking.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

lyanna? the world book will reveal neds mother, not jons mother

Yeah, I totally misread that post, haha. I should have known it wouldn't make sense.

Ned's mother is not important, didn't GRRM outright state that many years ago? If it was important it wouldn't be revealed first in the world book.

Yeah, when asked he'd just say, "Lady Stark. She died.". I guess revealing who Ned's mom is is a fun trivia/factoid but it's probably not relevant to the story at all. Although it's odd to see how some family trees get so detailed, yet the Stark's is so bareboned...

 

[bone_and_sinew]

I agree with this. Basically, I think they are very insular, even though there is some activity on the isle, which is why nasty rumors are so easily spread about them. Some may be true, but they are probably way exaggerated, because you know, people loves trash-talking.

For all we know they could be spreading the rumors themselves as a means of discouraging people from visting the island in order to maintain their insularity.

 

[Reyne]

Yeah, when asked he'd just say, "Lady Stark. She died.". I guess revealing who Ned's mom is is a fun trivia/factoid but it's probably not relevant to the story at all. Although it's odd to see how some family trees get so detailed, yet the Stark's is so bareboned...

Not to mention that every generation of Stark seem to have at least one prominent Bran the Something, making the history of new and ancient Starks even muddier because they all have the same name... more or less.

For all we know they could be spreading the rumors themselves as a means of discouraging people from visting the island in order to maintain their insularity.

Well, they don't seem a friendly lot at any rate. I hope we get to see more of Davos storyline in winter.

 

[Supermanisdead]

These early Tyrion chapters in dance are so godamn boring. Eating and drinking and eating and drinking. Zzzzzzzz.

 

[Randdalf]

Good point. Skagos sounds like a complete shithole from the Davos POV chapter in Dance. Osha is rather knowledgeable about northern territory, it didn't make sense to me for them to go to an allegedly really dangerous place; they'd be going from one nasty situation to another. But if he has kin there, then it's the safest place he could be until the turmoil in The North is resolved.

Maybe Davos and Rickon will arrive on a unicorn during the battle of Winterfell, as the Skagosi overrun the Bolton men.

 

[Jack Scofield]

It's pretty weird how an island that big (assuming the wall is 300 miles long, Skagos is almost as long/wide as Ireland) can be that isolated/mysterious. It has unicorns and cannibals but apparently it's also got houses and lords and all that. It'll be interesting to see if we get a POV there in the next book or if GRRM decides to keep as much of that mystery as he can.

Stuff like this is why I think the size descriptors of Westeros and it's land masses are completely screwed up. The continent is supposedly pretty massive, but you wouldn't guess by the amount of time it takes people to travel it. Characters seem to have no trouble traversing literally thousands of miles on horseback.

In my mind I imagine Westeros being about the size of California. Mabe that's way too small, but it makes much more sense in the context of the story. Like you said, Skagos is about the size of Ireland. I think that's pretty ridiculous, to tell the truth.