Yeah, there's a google doc floating with the collected transcripts. GRRM doesn't like it, so I'm not sure if it's kosher to link it here.
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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
- Thread starter Pollux
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Yeah, there's a google doc floating with the collected transcripts. GRRM doesn't like it, so I'm not sure if it's kosher to link it here.
Basileus777
Member
If it's not illegal, why do we care what GRRM likes?
Its been posted in this thread already.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4uB5dqTYBLwOVFZS19RLTFFbDA/edit
http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/18o32j/spoilers_twow_new_twow_chapters_read_at_boskone/
Just a collection of transcripts, summaries and of course, the chapters released on GRRM official website. Obviously, its all subject to change etc.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4uB5dqTYBLwOVFZS19RLTFFbDA/edit
http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/18o32j/spoilers_twow_new_twow_chapters_read_at_boskone/
Just a collection of transcripts, summaries and of course, the chapters released on GRRM official website. Obviously, its all subject to change etc.
Well he hasn't authorized them, and I'm not about to dance on a mods toes about an IP issue just after coming back from a ban.
CrashBandicoot
Member
PhoenixDark
Banned
I've been re-reading ADWD for the first time, about 340 pages through. The book starts quite strong with a host of great moments and revelations. But I've been thinking about Dany's chapters mainly, and what went wrong. IMO she starts off ADWD well enough: the child's bones being presented to her, then Missandei's brother being murdered.
My question though: how would you guys have changed the Essos chapters to make them more interesting? General rule is that you can't change the end of Dany's arc; it still ends with the assassination attempt, controlling Drogo, and finding the dothraki.
So far the biggest thing I've noticed on the re-read is that a lot of awesome shit happens in Essos....but we don't see any of it on page. The Astapor king attacks the Yunkai army, Dany's envoys are killed, Dany's few ships are taken out as the river is blocked, etc. Some of that wouldn't be able to be seen on page due to a lack of POVs (ie Dany's envoys dying in cities we haven't seen yet), but others could have been done. We see the aftermath of the Astapor battle, and Quentyn recollects a lot of it...but it would have been far better to show the actual battle in a chapter. The chapter could end after the battle, with Quentyn seeing the dead body of Cleon with worms coming out of it (then in the next chapter explain that he had been dead for weeks, but the slaves had put armor on him and tied him to a horse to rally the troops).
Another thing: Dany tells Hizdahr that that if the city doesn't see a murder in 90 days and 90 nights she'll marry him. Instead of having him deliver his end of the bargain, I would have preferred if the city became even more violent, culminating a full on revolt. Shown from Barriston's POV, it would be an awesome look at guerrilla warfare. I'd have Hizdahr included in the battle, fighting alongside Barriston effectively; during this time he'd convince Barriston that he was trustworthy. After defeating the revolt, Dany would agree to marry him. Then you have the gladiator pit scene/assassination attempt, and Hizdahr showing his true colors. IMO that would be a far better way to get Dany and readers to trust him, than having him negotiate 90 days of peace; anyone would realize he had some type of involvement with the harpy....well except Dany apparently. It could also serve as another point of shame for Barriston, as he wondered whether his bad advice on Hizdahr led to him letting his guard down at the pit.
My question though: how would you guys have changed the Essos chapters to make them more interesting? General rule is that you can't change the end of Dany's arc; it still ends with the assassination attempt, controlling Drogo, and finding the dothraki.
So far the biggest thing I've noticed on the re-read is that a lot of awesome shit happens in Essos....but we don't see any of it on page. The Astapor king attacks the Yunkai army, Dany's envoys are killed, Dany's few ships are taken out as the river is blocked, etc. Some of that wouldn't be able to be seen on page due to a lack of POVs (ie Dany's envoys dying in cities we haven't seen yet), but others could have been done. We see the aftermath of the Astapor battle, and Quentyn recollects a lot of it...but it would have been far better to show the actual battle in a chapter. The chapter could end after the battle, with Quentyn seeing the dead body of Cleon with worms coming out of it (then in the next chapter explain that he had been dead for weeks, but the slaves had put armor on him and tied him to a horse to rally the troops).
Another thing: Dany tells Hizdahr that that if the city doesn't see a murder in 90 days and 90 nights she'll marry him. Instead of having him deliver his end of the bargain, I would have preferred if the city became even more violent, culminating a full on revolt. Shown from Barriston's POV, it would be an awesome look at guerrilla warfare. I'd have Hizdahr included in the battle, fighting alongside Barriston effectively; during this time he'd convince Barriston that he was trustworthy. After defeating the revolt, Dany would agree to marry him. Then you have the gladiator pit scene/assassination attempt, and Hizdahr showing his true colors. IMO that would be a far better way to get Dany and readers to trust him, than having him negotiate 90 days of peace; anyone would realize he had some type of involvement with the harpy....well except Dany apparently. It could also serve as another point of shame for Barriston, as he wondered whether his bad advice on Hizdahr led to him letting his guard down at the pit.
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
That's actually a pretty good point. What it boils down to in the Ed is that the Dany chapters just needed less Dany. The Astapor battle would've also given Quentyn a chance to not be as boring and pointless as he in fact ended up being.
Basileus777
Member
The Essos chapters just needed to be less words. That's a good solution for most of GRRM's problems post-ASOS. Events happening off-screen is fine, more things needed to happen that way. You don't need to spruce up Dany's chapters, you need to get through them more quickly and efficiently.
KiwiLannister
Member
The Essos chapters did need to be much briefer definitely. I also think the Essos part of ADWD suffered far more from having its climax moved into TWOW than the northern story. I think GRRM should've either made AFFC/ADWD completely chronological, or alternatively, split the events up further into a few smaller books, like one for the north, one for essos, one for the south. We would get the books quicker (ha, yeah right) and each book would have its climax inside it. What we have now is pretty much the worst possible way he could've split up the material.
The Albatross
Member
IMO, the problem with Dany is that she's going on these book-long journeys that bring her back to where she started. I believe that ADWD ends with her being effectively in exile facing Drogo's former horselords who are a threat to her. This is exactly where we were near the end of Game of Thrones.
Sure, she's gotten dragons since then and they've been a game changer for her int he East but have had no practical relevance to the story of Westeros -- which I still consider the "main" story of the books. Further, all of the escepades in one city to the next never truly give her anything: she gets a massive army to see a lot of it die, she gets ships and sells them for something, she has suitor after suitor.
The problem with her -- IMO -- is that she's generally in the same position she was in 5000 pages ago, except we're 5000 pages later.
I love them too. It's everything you like from ASoIaF -- great characters, plot twists, and a ton of world history -- but without as much drab carrying on.
Sure, she's gotten dragons since then and they've been a game changer for her int he East but have had no practical relevance to the story of Westeros -- which I still consider the "main" story of the books. Further, all of the escepades in one city to the next never truly give her anything: she gets a massive army to see a lot of it die, she gets ships and sells them for something, she has suitor after suitor.
The problem with her -- IMO -- is that she's generally in the same position she was in 5000 pages ago, except we're 5000 pages later.
I love them too. It's everything you like from ASoIaF -- great characters, plot twists, and a ton of world history -- but without as much drab carrying on.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I agree that ultimately, the moving of the climax (Mereen) battle harmed the story, but the negative impact of that editing decision could have been softened if the arc included at least a couple extra great moments. I doubt many of us would complain about Essos if Barriston's two TWOW chapters were in Dance, plus the subsequent Victarion/Tyrion chapters.
I've said this before, but I fear Dany will start TWOW spending a lot of time with the dothraki. I'd love for her to burn the khal, take his khalasar, and return to Mereen...but I just don't see that happening. She'll go back to that mountain to meet/free/whatever the crones, as prophesied. While her city gets fucked up.
I've said this before, but I fear Dany will start TWOW spending a lot of time with the dothraki. I'd love for her to burn the khal, take his khalasar, and return to Mereen...but I just don't see that happening. She'll go back to that mountain to meet/free/whatever the crones, as prophesied. While her city gets fucked up.
Speaking of are these available anywhere online? I've only seen sample chapters for Arianne and Theon.
PhoenixDark
Banned
He read both chapters, but here's a very good description:
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/81338-twow-spoilers-barristan/#entry4122024
ToyMachine228
Member
I just finished all the Winds of Winter sample chapters. I was considering listening to the books on tape of the whole series for my second "read" through. What is everyone's opinion of the books on tape?
Haven't listened to them myself but I've asked on here before about them and the consensus is that they're pretty good. At least, that's the impression I got, there was some sort of annoyance with the Roy Doltrice accents if I remember.
"To go north, you must journey south, to reach the west you must go east. To go forward you must go back and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."
The Albatross
Member
Yeah, but prophecy doesn't necessarily mean good story telling.
I don't think GRRM fully knew what the fuck that entailed when he wrote it way back when.
Also, the Winterfell Huis Clos page is actually making me respect Walder Frey just a tiny bit for looking out for his fam before the shitstorm following his death engulfs the Twins. Still barely scratched the surface of it though. Jesus, it's long.
Also, the Winterfell Huis Clos page is actually making me respect Walder Frey just a tiny bit for looking out for his fam before the shitstorm following his death engulfs the Twins. Still barely scratched the surface of it though. Jesus, it's long.
Chuckie
Member
What's the Winterfell Huis Clos?
http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Contents.html
Enjoy!
As a side note, reading this really makes me appreciate the Westerosi politics of ASoIAF that much more, and makes the Dany chapters seem like a story from a more generic fantasy series by comparison. Hell, all of Essos is pretty much fantasyland. GRRM, you orientalist fuck. There's a reason why Dany's stuff on the show resembles a SyFy original more than an HBO one.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Good to see more people reading the Winterfell article. It blew my mind. I always believed something odd was happening but not to that level.
I don't believe the entire north knows about Robb's letter, but I definitely think many northern lords are starting to realize Rickon is alive.
I don't believe the entire north knows about Robb's letter, but I definitely think many northern lords are starting to realize Rickon is alive.
Chuckie
Member
Holy crap...that is a lot. What is it exactly (before I read) A fanfic? Or a theory on something? Should I just read it top-to-bottom?
PhoenixDark
Banned
It's an analysis of the northern chapters in ADWD that argues a large conspiracy is brewing against the Boltons. Manderly is known to be plotting to bring Rickon back, but the article argues multiple houses are in cahoots in some form or fashion, and they might know Jon is (allegedly) Robb's heir.
It also speculates on who wrote the Pink Letter, who the Hooded Man is, and why Theon is a kinslayer.
Chuckie
Member
A sweet! Thanks. I shall be going to read it now!
Huis Clos is a very interesting read indeed. His eyes for noticing all those details and literary devices are definitely impressive and moreover, it made me appreciate GRRM's writing even more.
Though I did find some of the articles a bit repetitive since he keeps bringing up the same quotes over and over, often followed by points he has already made. Of course, I realize he needs to clarify things for himself and those reading the articles by reminding us of what is going on, but still.
Definitely worth reading though.
Though I did find some of the articles a bit repetitive since he keeps bringing up the same quotes over and over, often followed by points he has already made. Of course, I realize he needs to clarify things for himself and those reading the articles by reminding us of what is going on, but still.
Definitely worth reading though.
Basileus777
Member
That's the biggest problem with that. It's not a particularly complicated theory, he doesn't need to pad it so much. Honestly, the whole thing could be detailed in a few paragraphs, reading that whole thing was a waste of time.
Cornballer
Member
- Etsy project via Slate.com: The Periodic Table of Thrones (BOOK SPOILERS)
The way George works I think there could be a grand northern conspiracy, the "good" northmen retake Winterfell, and they declare Jon the King in the North. Howland Reed shows up and tells everyone Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar and right when everyone is about to party, White Walkers enter Winterfell and all the people who know the truth end up dying.
Well, yeah, details from the Theon sample chapter is frequently discussed, so if you are planning to read the article I suggest you read that sample chapter first, at least.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Definitely read Theon's chapter. It seems to occur before Jon receives the letter.
platypotamus
Member
Can you do that then? I don't want to read the whole thing, but I'm curious about the implications
Nah that's not cruel enough. Jon being killed by assassin Arya and then the blood wake up Arya from the spell and grief for the rest of her life is the proper way to do it. Also Sansa turning evil. That's a given. She lost her wolf, she is not a Stark anymore.
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
I want to know what its gonna be like when Petyr and Sansa run into Lady Stoneheart. How weird is that gonna be.
Jorah = Targaryen = mind blown. His mother then I guess?
PhoenixDark
Banned
I thought the Faceless Men couldn't be contracted to kill someone they knew?
Chuckie
Member
Why does it say Benjen Stark: Surviving. Shouldn't it be: Unknown
True, I guess. Maester Aemon should also be listed as deceased, rather than unknown. I guess they will fix this since they have been told that their chart contains errors.
Archaeopteryx
Member
It also has Lysa twice. Once as Lysa Arryn (Deceased) and once as Lysa Tully (Surviving)
Doesn't seem like a well thought out chart.
Archaeopteryx
Member
One of my favourite little moments in the book. The way Stannis just nods to Jon afterwards is awesome.
Exactly! I actually had the event spoiled for me accidentally, but that made it an immensely powerful scene.
Telling how Theon and Rob had to swing multiple times. Kill the boy.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
That might be my favorite chapter in the series.
Enosh
Member
what they have done with him on the show is nothing short of criminal
To be fair, neither of them was wielding Valyrian steel
They should have casted Lucius Vorenus to play him!
Archaeopteryx
Member
It's a shame, because I really like who they have playing him.
ToyMachine228
Member
I was going to say this. Jon wields a legendary. He has also likely had ten times the training that either Jon and Theon have had since joining the Night's Watch. They may have been trained together in Winterfell, but after they left, Jon trained daily.
And additionally, while GRRM may have meant for the three's beheadings to play off of one another, I'd also note they're symbolic of their emotional states. Robb was carrying out justice despite knowing that it was something that he did not want to do. It was "hard" for him to do, not just physically but emotionally because of the ties between the houses. Theon was way off the path and knew inside that he was cooked. He was weak but going through with it to try to prove he was strong. Jon was doing it to display his power and because the guy had disobeyed orders. The oath a man of the Night's Watch takes is a bit stronger than just swearing your fealty to a house. Jon had to do what he did or risk losing control.
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