Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I agree. Enough with the secret Targs already, lol.
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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
- Thread starter Pollux
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ToyMachine228
Member
For real. Martin has done enough to expand the Targaryen line already. Especially assuming Jon is one. I'm sick of everyone theorizing that everyone and their brother are secretly part Targaryen. If anything, I think he'll leave a lot of it ambiguous and just let people on the interwebs debate the theories.
But Tywin married a Lannister anyway, so even if Tywin isn't their father, they could all look like half-Lannisters.
Basileus777
Member
Tywin's children are all Lannisters because it'd be incredibly lame to have yet another secret Targ ou there. Don't do it GRRM.
Chuckie
Member
I totally agree with you.
Technically they would be Lannisters even if Aerys was the Father, since the Mother was Tywin's Cousin with the Lannister name.
Tyrion being a Targ would be one of the worst possible character developements though, but it wouldn't be to bad for Jaime/Cersei
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
As far as Jaime/Cersei being Targaryens, I really just like the idea that Jaime and Tyrion would have both killed their own fathers if that were the case.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
That would be nice if it weren't so likely that Jon is a Targaryen. If everyone is, it just gets silly. And Jamie is interesting enough without that. Rhaegar being Jon's father is the only interesting possibility with his lineage. If it was one of the women suspected of sleeping with Ned, it would be really, really boring.
Basileus777
Member
Hah, I read this as Rhaegar being Jaime's father. A 6 year old Rhaegar fathering Jaime is one theory I haven't heard yet.
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
The prince that promised he'd call.
I always took it the story of Aery possible raping Joanna in context that
a) simple, yet true story told to Dany to illustrate her father was not a nice man (He tries telling a similar story of Ned was a good guy, but she doesn't want to hear it
b) Just because the event happen, doesn't mean Joanna got pregnant from the one encounter. It is just one of the many insult dealt to Tywin over the course of year that lead Tywin to turn on Aerys.
I still think it is possible Tyrion is a head of the dragon. He doesn't need Targeran blood to do so.
a) simple, yet true story told to Dany to illustrate her father was not a nice man (He tries telling a similar story of Ned was a good guy, but she doesn't want to hear it
b) Just because the event happen, doesn't mean Joanna got pregnant from the one encounter. It is just one of the many insult dealt to Tywin over the course of year that lead Tywin to turn on Aerys.
I still think it is possible Tyrion is a head of the dragon. He doesn't need Targeran blood to do so.
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
Either Jon, Aegon, and Dany are the Prince(s) that were promised, Azor Ahai, three headed dragon, Messiah whatever you want to call them, or the whole prophecy thing is bunk and they will do everything they do because they are tough and awesome not because "it was prophecy and they were meant to".
I wouldn't mind either way if the prophecies are true or will come true or if they're just bullshit and Melisandre and Thoros and all the magic coming back are just stupid parlor tricks. On the one hand if the prophecies everyone spouts are true it likely means that Jon Aegon and Dany are the prince that was promised, and they will ride the three dragons and save the world. And Rheagar is somehow made even more awesome and heroic since he rode knowingly to his death having dreamt that his sons and sister would one day destroy the Others. On the other, if Jon, Dany, Aegon, Tyrion all save Westeros because they're just that badass, not because they were "meant to", that's cool too.
Other than that, If Aegon is a Blackfyre pretender and Tyrion is Danys brother, it would be incredibly lame and out of no where. GRRM already said Tyrion is his favorite character, and if he isnt dead in TWOW then I will think a little less of him.
Jaime is Azor Ahai. You have to think if the prophecy will come true, who is Nissa Nissa? No one else has a lover like Jaime and Cersei.
I wouldn't mind either way if the prophecies are true or will come true or if they're just bullshit and Melisandre and Thoros and all the magic coming back are just stupid parlor tricks. On the one hand if the prophecies everyone spouts are true it likely means that Jon Aegon and Dany are the prince that was promised, and they will ride the three dragons and save the world. And Rheagar is somehow made even more awesome and heroic since he rode knowingly to his death having dreamt that his sons and sister would one day destroy the Others. On the other, if Jon, Dany, Aegon, Tyrion all save Westeros because they're just that badass, not because they were "meant to", that's cool too.
Other than that, If Aegon is a Blackfyre pretender and Tyrion is Danys brother, it would be incredibly lame and out of no where. GRRM already said Tyrion is his favorite character, and if he isnt dead in TWOW then I will think a little less of him.
Jaime is Azor Ahai. You have to think if the prophecy will come true, who is Nissa Nissa? No one else has a lover like Jaime and Cersei.
The Albatross
Member
I forgot about the Aegon story.
Jesus. I'm worried for the TV show. I forgot how convoluted this is.
Jesus. I'm worried for the TV show. I forgot how convoluted this is.
Spider from Mars
tap that thorax
Just finished a slow re-read of the series over the past year or so and now there is a hole where a book series should be. I have never really given fantasy books much of a chance so I think I will give another series a go. I was thinking either Wheel of Time, which, from my understanding, lingers even more than AFFC and ADWD or The Gentlemen Bastard series, which I know very little about. Any recs. or insight from fellow ASOIAF bros?
Spider from Mars
tap that thorax
Has it been acknowledged that R'hllor is legit as fuck and all the other gods are garbage? #teamlordoflight
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
I'd argue the North's gods have powers as well given that they can use the trees in mythical ways. And there are certainly other powers in the North we don't know much about yet.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Whoa-- did the dragons die out because the only living ones were in Westeros, not their native land?
Were there other dragons still living in the East after Aegon the Conquerer went West?
Were there other dragons still living in the East after Aegon the Conquerer went West?
Spider from Mars
tap that thorax
Old Gods, aka, Creepers of the forest being voyeurs.
The Drowned God has only been shown to be effective at CPR.
The Seven are straight up false.
The Many Faced God is a convenient excuse to merk fools.
Lord of Light is right.
Light is right
Pollux
Member
We'll see...new religious order might give them an opportunity to do something
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
I'm predicting a bonafide miracle during the fight between Un-Gregor and St Sandor. Like Un-Gregor has him on the ropes and Sandor spontaneously casts Holy or Revive or something, killing him instantly.
Spider from Mars
tap that thorax
We will find out that Mr. Strong is a composition of Tywin, Oberyn and Gregor. He will sit the Iron Throne and rule for 2,345 years and father 9,650,000 sons.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
And bits of Robert.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Yes. This guy knows what he's talking about.
ToyMachine228
Member
Where does the notion that Sandor will be fighting in the trial come from? You're not the first person I've heard mention it. Did I miss something? I just finished aDwD about a week ago so let me know.
It's generally believed that in Brienne's chapter in AFFC when she's talking to Septon Merribald he makes it clear(ish) that Sandor isn't dead, just the Hound, later Brienne sees a Gravedigger who matches the size of Sandor, it appears he has taken a simple life of the faith.
People believe that he will be the Churches champion against Robert Strong (Most likely his undead brother).
I personally don't think he'll be the one to fight him unless he knows beforehand that it's his brother, I'd like to see Sandor have a nice easy rest of the series.
PhoenixDark
Banned
The Aegon thing didn't strike me as convoluted or forced considering it was foretold in the second book and the Septon Meribald dragon sign story in AFFC (which was originally ADWD). I remember folks at Westeros.org figuring out who Griff and Young Griff were a few months after those first Tyrion sample chapters were released. I also think it's pretty clear he's a Blackfyre.
Whereas the show has had no subtlety or hints at anything, from Jon's mother to Dany's HOTU visions. Which is unfortunate given how obsessive some of the non-book reader fans are. I had hoped the writers would kind of treat it like Lost, giving hardcore viewers a lot of hints and theories to play around with. It's going to be rather awkward when Aegon suddenly shows up, or when we learn who Jon's mom is - assuming the show doesn't start hinting at that stuff soon.
I was very surprised they didn't start the hints during ep 9 S3, when Dany was waiting with Barriston; it seemed like an exposition scene was coming, focusing on Rhaegar, but Barrison was oddly silent through the scene.
Whereas the show has had no subtlety or hints at anything, from Jon's mother to Dany's HOTU visions. Which is unfortunate given how obsessive some of the non-book reader fans are. I had hoped the writers would kind of treat it like Lost, giving hardcore viewers a lot of hints and theories to play around with. It's going to be rather awkward when Aegon suddenly shows up, or when we learn who Jon's mom is - assuming the show doesn't start hinting at that stuff soon.
I was very surprised they didn't start the hints during ep 9 S3, when Dany was waiting with Barriston; it seemed like an exposition scene was coming, focusing on Rhaegar, but Barrison was oddly silent through the scene.
bishopcruz
Member
Well, Dragons might also be alive in Asshai, or in hibernation there. Bran's vision in AGoT hinted at this. Dragons were tamed in Valyria, but they didn't originate there. There have been reports of dragons there as well. But it is far as fuck away.
ToyMachine228
Member
Yeah I know people think Sandor is now working for the church but I didn't get where the notion that he'd fight for the church came from. I kind of thought that it would be left open ended and for fans to decide if that was him and he'd just silently serve, or if he had died. We'll see though.
There is also this vision from Bran:
"There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."
People have always guess The Hound, Jaime, and The Mountain (though no one could guess why the Mountain had no head until the end of DwD- LOL.)
Many think the vision means there will be a show down between these knights- particular Sandor and Gregor due to their past. With his current displeasure toward Cersei, I think Jamie may team up with Sandor to take down The Mountain. Pure speculation.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I don't know if the old gods are truly real but there's obviously some supernatural power in the north through the weirwoods/Bloodraven. Maybe he's the "god" the north prays to unknowingly.
ToyMachine228
Member
Yeah, I think the "Old Gods" ARE the Childen of the Forest, Weirwoods, Bloodraven, all of that stuff. There is nothing that technically qualifies anything as a God, except for the beliefs of others in you. You can worship whatever you please so that makes these...Forces of the North the "Old Gods".
No, the North worships the same gods as the Children of the Forest. It would be weird for the Children of the Forest to be the Old Gods because they worshipped the Old Gods too. According to the Wiki the Old Gods are the nameless deities of stone and earth and tree.
PhoenixDark
Banned
True. I'm forgetting, but was there a "Bloodraven" before Bloodraven/Brynden Rivers?
badcrumble
Member
I think Season 4 will be the best time to start in on that, actually, for a number of reasons.
We'll likely get Tywin's description of his perspective on Robert's Rebellion (and how a lot of it was all about getting back at the Targaryens and Martells because Rhaegar didn't marry Cersei).
We'll get Oberyn Martell's description of what happened to Elia.
And yeah, I suspect there'll be more opportunity for some further exposition on the past from Maester Aemon, Barristan Selmy, and perhaps some other folks.
Too early to make Dany start thinking out about what really happened to her family and why. There is no information in the first five books for the Producers know how Dany would react her father being crazy.
As other said, there are other character that can give the view the exposition that won't change their character.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Actually Barriston reluctantly tells her that her father was considered mad in ASOS, and Dany says she thought it was just a lie from the usurpers/Robert; she even wonders whether she might go mad one day. He tells her a bunch of stuff about her father and brother in that book.
If Sandor does indeed fight Un-Gregor then that is going to be a little bit further into the book, he's got to have several chapters of him travelling down to Kings Landing and what he sees along the way 
I still can't see why it'd be him to fight, he'd fight Robert Strong but he wouldn't know it was his brother unless they realised it beforehand
I still can't see why it'd be him to fight, he'd fight Robert Strong but he wouldn't know it was his brother unless they realised it beforehand
If Sandor does indeed fight Un-Gregor then that is going to be a little bit further into the book, he's got to have several chapters of him travelling down to Kings Landing and what he sees along the way
I still can't see why it'd be him to fight, he'd fight Robert Strong but he wouldn't know it was his brother unless they realised it beforehand
It does seem clear from Bran's vision that they'll fight again though and the trial or the fallout from it seems like the best time for it to occur. It does seem likely at this point that the church is going to learn about Strong's origins if Sandor is going to be their champion.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Nah, I knew in AFFC, Qyburn kept talking about these mysterious experiments.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I'm not 100% sure Bran's vision is something from the future (that hasn't happened on page yet), specifically a battle between The Hound and Gregor. The rest of that part of the vision mentions events we're familiar with having seen: Ned pleading to save Lady, Sansa crying, and Arya hardening her heart. Perhaps he just saw Jaime, The Hound, and Gregor in King's Landing around the same time. To me the most interesting thing is that book one references Gregor's condition in ADWD.
Also from the same dream:
Dragons in Asshai? Martin has said we won't get to see Asshai through a POV, so I doubt Bran is seeing Dany's dragons. Jon, perhaps frozen within one of the Wall's cell; it mirrors Dany's dream about a blue rose growing in the Wall.
Interesting that there's a curtain of light to the North, while Asshai is said to be beneath a curtain of shadow. Quaith told Dany that in order to touch the light she must go through the Shadow. Going through Asshai to reach the Land of Always Winter? But Martin said no Asshai...so yeah.
Also from the same dream:
Dragons in Asshai? Martin has said we won't get to see Asshai through a POV, so I doubt Bran is seeing Dany's dragons. Jon, perhaps frozen within one of the Wall's cell; it mirrors Dany's dream about a blue rose growing in the Wall.
Interesting that there's a curtain of light to the North, while Asshai is said to be beneath a curtain of shadow. Quaith told Dany that in order to touch the light she must go through the Shadow. Going through Asshai to reach the Land of Always Winter? But Martin said no Asshai...so yeah.
When did he say that? Have you got a link or an idea where/when he said it? That's a shame if he did, sounds like one of the more interesting places Dany could have visited unlike boring Meereen
PhoenixDark
Banned
http://blog.indigo.ca/fiction/item/512-an-interview-with-george-r-r-martin-part-one.html
I thought he made a more absolute answer, but I can't find it now. It seems unlikely a POV will go there, given how far away it is.
edit:
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/2997/
It's from a Spanish site, and some have argued the question might have been "will we see Asshai in the next book [ADWD]" instead of "will we (ever) see Asshai"
I am corrected.
I have no idea then other that season 4 is still part of SoS.LOL corrected twice! Time for a reread!
I can never tell what happened when. I read all five books as one, so there are no interbook boundaries at all.
None of the gods are real. The only thing that is real is death.
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