I don't think Sansa is evil but I do think all the Starks are going to be tempted by the "dark side" in the upcoming books. The people they are training with don't seem too savory. Bloodraven and Bran (Jojen Paste??), Arya having to assassinate people, Sansa becoming a schemer, and Rickon is going wild. Also with Jon possibly being dead or gravely injured who knows what he will have to do to return to his previous state and what effect that will have on his overall personality.
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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
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I don't think Sansa is evil but I do think all the Starks are going to be tempted by the "dark side" in the upcoming books. The people they are training with don't seem too savory. Bloodraven and Bran (Jojen Paste??), Arya having to assassinate people, Sansa becoming a schemer, and Rickon is going wild. Also with Jon possibly being dead or gravely injured who knows what he will have to do to return to his previous state and what effect that will have on his overall personality.
Woah, thanks! This was really cool to scroll through. I always felt there was an air of mystery, spookiness, and foreboding in Theon's ADWD Winterfell chapters. Some of the analysis reaffirmed it has basis. It also cements the continuance of Theon's poetically tragic arc.
And yeah the guy has some repetitive chunks in there, but at least he was thorough. I'm convinced there is indeed a Northern Conspiracy going on, and it would seem to be a really gnarly one with lots to digest.
Zoso Achilles
Member
I've tried to read through that three times now but just can't. I mean, at one point he was trying to estimate how long the Boltons have been around. He ended up with them being around about as long as the Nightfort of the Nights Watch since "Dreadfort rhymes with Nightfort." I mean, really?
That and how every other line is a quote, some repeated multiple times. Like someone else said, most of that could all be explained in like a tenth of the length.
Forsaken82
Member
wow... wrong thread.. 
Actually, when there is a tendency to name thing similarly, then there might be a historical connection that might be used as a literary device. For instance, aside from the Dreadfort and the Nightfort he also mentions the Redfort in the Vale, and the Banefort in the Westerlands. As it were, the Redfort trace their descent from the First Men and predate the Andals. Hence they might all come from a time when it was common to name castles as forts, i.e. in the pre-andal era.
Personally I find his observation regarding the prevailing battle for dominance of Westeros between horses and ravens intriguing. From the children and the first men, all the way to the game of chess played between Bloodraven and Bittersteel.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I hope Victarion wins. Dude has the best chapters every time.
Zoso Achilles
Member
That would totally redeem the entire Essos storyline.
CitizenVectron
Member
Ending of the series:
"And so Victarion landed in Essos, and punched every bad dude in the face one by one, and won the war."
"And so Victarion landed in Essos, and punched every bad dude in the face one by one, and won the war."
CrashBandicoot
Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72265846]I hope Victarion wins. Dude has the best chapters every time.[/QUOTE]
He's so badass nobody even cares that he beat his wife to death. Jaime's cool and all, but even he took a while to recover from crippling Branflakes
He's so badass nobody even cares that he beat his wife to death. Jaime's cool and all, but even he took a while to recover from crippling Branflakes
That wasn't shown in the books and it's not really mentioned much, plus people love Bran so it's only natural they didn't like Jaime because he crippled someone who had a POV which allowed people to connect with Bran and then hate Jaime because of what he did.
Victarion is a badass and people just expect him to do things like that.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I don't get the Victarion love. He's just a stupid brute. Of course, he's meant to be, but he's not remotely likeable.
CrashBandicoot
Member
I suppose, but the brutality of it really stuck with me far more than Jaime's careless shove.
This probably makes more sense
but I never really was much of a Bran fan, I only warmed to him when there wasn't much choice left in Starks.I imagine if we read what actually happened we might be a bit more wary of him. Am I wrong in saying that Euron played some part in it, maybe indirectly?I suppose, but the brutality of it really stuck with me far more than Jaime's careless shove.
This probably makes more sense
I don't think people really like him as a character, it's more that they enjoy him actually having exciting chapters. The battles and the fact that his plot is actually moving forward makes people enjoy it, he's pretty much thick as shit. If we had him hanging around Euron in the way Areo Hotah does to Doran Martell I think people would like him a lot less.
CrashBandicoot
Member
Euron had sex with her, whether it was rape or not I'm not sure, but he wound him up saying she was "wet and willing". Then he just lost his shit, and kept hitting her, didn't even realise she was dead for a while I don't think.
I don't love him, but I'm interested in his arc. He's rolling into something
"God's Beard!"
Member
I love how ruthless and unrepentant he is. I can just imagine him striding up and down the boat slitting people's throats and knocking them into the ocean while dreaming of his future rape victim and dragon. Dude doesn't have a second thought about anything.
AND he's got the God Hand.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Pretty awesome, long Martin interview.
http://observationdeck.io9.com/george-r-r-martin-the-complete-unedited-interview-886117845
Including what I'm pretty sure is his first public acknowledgement of the AFFC/ADWD detractors.
Later on he makes a good comparison to Aragorn, at the end of ROTK. When I read that book as a kid I remember having the exact same thought.
Overall I agree with Martin's point, especially as I continue to re-read ADWD. I would simply point out that his first three books tended to feature a lot of exposition, history, talking...but every five or so POVs there would be an action or epic drama "hook" that blew you away. ADWD has plenty, such as that Davos chapter where Manderly reveals his plot. But there's also a lot of space where there is no hook, which is even more noticeable given how damn long many of the chapters are.
http://observationdeck.io9.com/george-r-r-martin-the-complete-unedited-interview-886117845
Including what I'm pretty sure is his first public acknowledgement of the AFFC/ADWD detractors.
Later on he makes a good comparison to Aragorn, at the end of ROTK. When I read that book as a kid I remember having the exact same thought.
Overall I agree with Martin's point, especially as I continue to re-read ADWD. I would simply point out that his first three books tended to feature a lot of exposition, history, talking...but every five or so POVs there would be an action or epic drama "hook" that blew you away. ADWD has plenty, such as that Davos chapter where Manderly reveals his plot. But there's also a lot of space where there is no hook, which is even more noticeable given how damn long many of the chapters are.
Basileus777
Member
It's a shame that he thinks the real criticism of those books is that nothing happened. He's mostly responding to a strawman there.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Uhh I would say the main gist of much of AFFC/ADWD criticism revolves around nothing allegedly happening. I can understand understand the argument with some stuff, like Brienne's chapters - which are somewhat of a double negative because not only does little happen, we know from the beginning that she won't complete her quest (to find Sansa). Maybe Quentyn falls into this too, although I don't think his chapters are "bad."
Hi all! Been lurking this thread a month or two waiting for my account to get approved. I just finished rereading the whole series this summer.
Y'all better get on the Victarion train, that guy's the fiercest fucker around. If nothing else, I like characters that are paragons of their people; he's just such a capital-I Ironborn.
Y'all better get on the Victarion train, that guy's the fiercest fucker around. If nothing else, I like characters that are paragons of their people; he's just such a capital-I Ironborn.
ToyMachine228
Member
One of the things that bothers me the most about Feast and Dance is that everyone is focused on marrying Dany or taking her dragons, or both. You might as well have called it A Song of Ice and Fire: The Bachelorette. I would have preferred if the Ironborn were just going to fuck everyone's shit up and rape and pillage rather than blow the dragon horn and try to command the dragons. It's not very fitting of them.
Cornballer
Member
That's a good read. Thanks for posting it.
Last Hearth
Member
While I loved AFFC/ADWD, I do have some complaints about it. And it's not that nothing happens, it's that not everything that happens we needed to see first hand in excruciating detail, like Quentyn's quest.
I think I'd have been okay with him just showing up in Mereen.
I think I'd have been okay with him just showing up in Mereen.
eot
Banned
I finished ADWD last night and my feelings on the whole series are complicated, it's going to take a while to digest.
To jump into the discussion, I think it's fair to say that not a lot happens in AFFC/ADWD, but the truth is that not a lot happens in any of the books. On the whole they're very thin on plot. I think not focusing on plot is totally valid though, you can still have a good story which is why I'll keep defending Mass Effect 2. Of course ASOIAF isn't completely without plot and the last two books failed to close on a strong plot point, unlike the first three books, they just set them up. I just don't think that's grounds to crucify them, if you were just reading for plot I suspect you were already frustrated with the books.
For me a bigger problem is that he (GRRM) fails to make the things he meanders on as interesting as in the earlier books. Arya and Brienne running around the countryside is equally irrelevant to the plot, but Arya is a much stronger character who develops more. Daenerys' character development also grinds to a halt in a comparatively underdeveloped setting. Meereen should've been another King's Landing to justify such a big part of the timeline but it isn't even close. I thought Tyrion started off fine because at least he gets to be himself a little, but the Penny stuff was just ugh. He didn't need to be more empathetic and that wasn't a good way of achieving it.
Jon's arc felt stretched, it's headed in the same way from the start and never diverges. I guess he really wanted to sell the ending. A few other arcs felt that way too. Cercei walks a fairly straight path to her demise that could've been sped up, and most of Jamie's character development actually happened in ASOS. Even though I didn't feel this way when reading it I have to say that the story of what happens in the North as well as in Dorne is what salavages the books in this timeline. That's where we get some character interactions that are actually interesting. I think one of the problems on the whole is that he wrote several of our favourite characters out of the story (temporarily at least), but he still wants to keep them around even though they don't have much to give.
Finally, I think one problem with the books is that they introduce yet more tension into the story without resolving any of it. That tension is almost entirely in the form of the separation of characters. At the outset none of the Stark kids know much or even anything about eachother's fates, Daenerys isn't in Westeros etc. and that doesn't change. Then even more tension is introduced by Brienne trying to find Sansa (good luck) and Tyrion trying to get to Daenerys. You could say that's just the lack of plot, but I don't think it's quite the same. I think that build up of tension is what people are actually frustrated by when they say that nothing happens, but resolving some of it wouldn't necessarily be a big plot point because most of those characters are more important to us (the readers) than to the fictional world they inhabit.
To jump into the discussion, I think it's fair to say that not a lot happens in AFFC/ADWD, but the truth is that not a lot happens in any of the books. On the whole they're very thin on plot. I think not focusing on plot is totally valid though, you can still have a good story which is why I'll keep defending Mass Effect 2. Of course ASOIAF isn't completely without plot and the last two books failed to close on a strong plot point, unlike the first three books, they just set them up. I just don't think that's grounds to crucify them, if you were just reading for plot I suspect you were already frustrated with the books.
For me a bigger problem is that he (GRRM) fails to make the things he meanders on as interesting as in the earlier books. Arya and Brienne running around the countryside is equally irrelevant to the plot, but Arya is a much stronger character who develops more. Daenerys' character development also grinds to a halt in a comparatively underdeveloped setting. Meereen should've been another King's Landing to justify such a big part of the timeline but it isn't even close. I thought Tyrion started off fine because at least he gets to be himself a little, but the Penny stuff was just ugh. He didn't need to be more empathetic and that wasn't a good way of achieving it.
Jon's arc felt stretched, it's headed in the same way from the start and never diverges. I guess he really wanted to sell the ending. A few other arcs felt that way too. Cercei walks a fairly straight path to her demise that could've been sped up, and most of Jamie's character development actually happened in ASOS. Even though I didn't feel this way when reading it I have to say that the story of what happens in the North as well as in Dorne is what salavages the books in this timeline. That's where we get some character interactions that are actually interesting. I think one of the problems on the whole is that he wrote several of our favourite characters out of the story (temporarily at least), but he still wants to keep them around even though they don't have much to give.
Finally, I think one problem with the books is that they introduce yet more tension into the story without resolving any of it. That tension is almost entirely in the form of the separation of characters. At the outset none of the Stark kids know much or even anything about eachother's fates, Daenerys isn't in Westeros etc. and that doesn't change. Then even more tension is introduced by Brienne trying to find Sansa (good luck) and Tyrion trying to get to Daenerys. You could say that's just the lack of plot, but I don't think it's quite the same. I think that build up of tension is what people are actually frustrated by when they say that nothing happens, but resolving some of it wouldn't necessarily be a big plot point because most of those characters are more important to us (the readers) than to the fictional world they inhabit.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Good observations. Lots of things happen, but little gets resolved.
Forsaken82
Member
I have come to expect that with any middle chapters, I won't likely see a satisfying conclusion so the loose ends of the last 2 books were fine with me. You can not expect all the books to end on the same level as ASOS. The biggest ending that could top that at this point is basically the end of the series in my opinion (however and whatever may happen) I would rather the pieces be set for that grandiose ending as opposed to an IV drip of closure.
That being said, if I do get some closure in those middle chapters, I am likewise indifferent to them... they are nice to have, but like i said, I set my expectations low enough so that when they more often than not do not appear, i am less disappointed.
Jack Scofield
Member
I don't get the Victarion love. I just can't find myself to care about a character introduced halfway through the series. If he was important he would have been there from the beginning. As it stands he's some sucker who Euron bosses around.
Pimpn Drop Bear
Neo Member
Sorry for a slight derail here but I'm hoping someone with the paperback of ADWD can help me, I've touched on this before, but now realise its a bit of a bigger problem. I previously borrowed the books including a hardcover of ADWD off a friend and finished them, now recently a friend has bought a set of the paperbacks which I bought from the same place in order to have a re-read. I learnt that my paperback copy of ADWD is missing the epilogue with ser kevan, but now I think its missing a fair bit more, specifically jon snows last chapter. The last chapter I have ends with tyrion and jorah realising they are about to be captured by a slave ship, anyone who has a paperback copy can you please see how much im missing as I want to know how much shes missing out on. Thanks
Sorry for a slight derail here but I'm hoping someone with the paperback of ADWD can help me, I've touched on this before, but now realise its a bit of a bigger problem. I previously borrowed the books including a hardcover of ADWD off a friend and finished them, now recently a friend has bought a set of the paperbacks which I bought from the same place in order to have a re-read. I learnt that my paperback copy of ADWD is missing the epilogue with ser kevan, but now I think its missing a fair bit more, specifically jon snows last chapter. The last chapter I have ends with tyrion and jorah realising they are about to be captured by a slave ship, anyone who has a paperback copy can you please see how much im missing as I want to know how much shes missing out on. Thanks
How many pages does it have till the last chapter? You are missing a lot of chapters actually, like 4 tyrion chapters IIRC, maybe Barristan and Daenerys chapters too it seems.
Pimpn Drop Bear
Neo Member
Thanks I'll check when I get home. Yeah that rings a bell, I think the entire part with tyrion meeting the other two dwarfs will be missing. Will check the page count tonight.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I don't think it's a fair assessment to say Dany's character development grinds to a halt in Mereen; not liking the plot or story doesn't justify that argument. Dany is a conqueror with a rather high moral code on certain issues (slavery); that's just who she is and has always been, and I'm not sure both of those things mix. Her problem in Mereen is that for the first time, her dragons don't bail her out. She frees a bunch of slaves, wrecks the continent's economy, and then refuses to acknowledge important cultural aspects of the country (slave pits) because they offend her sensibilities.
By the end of the book it's pretty clear that her experiment hasn't worked, and she's a poor ruler. I think her figuring out how to control Drogon at the end was her re-finding herself, and what she is. AFFC and ADWD are largely about ruling, specifically three rulers (Dany, Jon, and Cersei) all of whom fuck up in various ways due to who they are as people. Jon is honorable and surrounded by murderers and thieves. Cersei begins the descent to madness the very moment she finally wins the reins of power. And Dany is the embodiment of fire and blood, and refuses to realize she can never be a mother.
By the end of the book it's pretty clear that her experiment hasn't worked, and she's a poor ruler. I think her figuring out how to control Drogon at the end was her re-finding herself, and what she is. AFFC and ADWD are largely about ruling, specifically three rulers (Dany, Jon, and Cersei) all of whom fuck up in various ways due to who they are as people. Jon is honorable and surrounded by murderers and thieves. Cersei begins the descent to madness the very moment she finally wins the reins of power. And Dany is the embodiment of fire and blood, and refuses to realize she can never be a mother.
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
I don't know if the whole point of Mereen is to show that Daenerys isn't actually a good "peacetime" ruler, since its made very clear that she's ruling over a majority of people who hate her, even the shavepates may be doublecrossers.
I think taking that into account, It's just supposed to humble her and give her a loss to her so far incredible record of battle prowess and a fair bit of luck. She will realize she made a mistake and should've conquered Westeros, and then taken her fully grown dragons east to bring whatever peace she wants over there.
I can't even imagine how that story ends though. She clearly will do something to wrestle power over the khalasar she ran into, and give her the mounted force she desperately needs, possibly subduing the rest of Drogos old khalasars and re-form them into the same powerful threat from the first book. That and the Unsullied, whatever freedmen soldiers that comes with her from Mereen she'll have the biggest army with sights on Westeros, she won't even need Aegon. Her biggest problem will then be ships to get them there, I wonder where she can get a guy with ships?
But then that still leaves the three slave cities. Will she just take everyone who wants to go with her? How will she willingly leave the Gulf of Grief, since she's clearly never going to be able to stamp out slavery there for good.
I'm really curious about what we'll see when we go further North. I've always felt that the White Walkers might be misunderstood. What their goals are, they seem to have intelligence. They've been the biggest tease throughout the entire series. I just can't wait to see the impact they'll have on the war for the Iron Throne if they do cross the wall.
Why you asking us man, ask Howland Reed. Howland knows. He is the Knower.
They make zombies though. Agents that deprive people of free will are Bad Dudes and Babes.
eot
Banned
At one point Dany considers marching west instead of staying in Meereen, but decides against it because Valyrian roads, doom etc. Apparently though the Dothraki sea is just north of Meereen, and if a Khalasar can ride there why can't she march the opposite way?
edit: Also, why would the Golden Company support Aegon given their history and that they think he's a Targaryen? Ok so there is a contract, but the guy who signed it is dead. Even if they wanted to honour that contract you'd think there would be some complaints about it, or at least questions. They can't all know he's a Blackfyre, in fact I don't think any of them know.
edit: Also, why would the Golden Company support Aegon given their history and that they think he's a Targaryen? Ok so there is a contract, but the guy who signed it is dead. Even if they wanted to honour that contract you'd think there would be some complaints about it, or at least questions. They can't all know he's a Blackfyre, in fact I don't think any of them know.
CrashBandicoot
Member
I don't think I'd be nearly as upset as with some of the characters if Victarion happened to die, but he's still a beast. Love that pirate shit.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I don't think Valerian steel does anything to White Walkers. It's dragonglass that works on them.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
"Dragonsteel" is supposedly different from "dragonglass," and Sam and Jon believe it means Valyrian Steel when they see it as a means of fighting the Others in some book.
Yeah, Dany is boring in Dance, but I don't think it's due to lack of development. If anything, it seems to be building up to one of her bigger pivots as a character. The end in the desert where visions of Quaithe are telling her that she screwed up by locking away her dragons always read to me like Dany is being broken of her desire to be the good guy, and is turning to her more fire and blood side. I don't think it's a coincidence that the end of Dance is where we get those stories from Barristan about how Aerys was a pretty ok guy, too, up until his subjects defied him and took him hostage. The slavers defying Dany seems like the sort of thing that would break her of any desire for appeasement.
Also, Victarion is lame. Asha is the true savior of the Greyjoys.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I honestly think she's going to burn Mereen due to the pale mare plague, which seems to be spreading quickly. Assuming the two dragons in the city don't do it first, when Victarion blows the horn...
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
And Dragonsteel. If that means valaryian blades or a metaphor for a dragons weapon. I cant imagine calling fire steel though.
I didn't buy the Aegon is a blackfyre until I read they didn't join up with Viserys. There should be a good reason otherwise it's a big plot hole.
eot
Banned
Fair enough, after her dehydrated miscarriage fever dream she does seem to have gained some insight into herself, but it all happens in that one moment of self reflection. Yes, it's predicated on the chapters that came before, but in those chapters there was never a hint of that insight which is what made them frustrating to read. To make a comparison, I thought Jamie's character growth was handled better, it happened gradually and you could almost feel him resisting it.
Now I make it sound like having that "oh shit, I fucked up" moment isn't valid, it is, but it made for some painful chapters. I think that part of the story might have been better served with more perspectives that weren't Dany's, some acknowledgement of her naivety.
What do we know about Targaryen religion? Kinda figured all the fire and such put them in league somehow with R'hllorohlohgh? So this guy? Benerro?
...because um...???
Steelyuhas
Member
What if Cat was half Targ and every Stark kid is quarter Targ? They can morph together and become Super Mega Targ.
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