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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

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W

WhereAreMahDragonz

Banned
Angry Grimace said:
Relation-shipping.

"Shippers" are people who are concerned most of all with putting characters together, vocally and often without any textual support for the pairing. An example of that would be someone who ships Jon Snow-Daenerys, despite the fact they've never met, or Arya-Gendry, despite the fact that Arya is supposed to be, what, 10? 12?
Click to expand...

There's a difference. Crack-shipping is like when you pair two characters who have absolutely no relation to each other so far (such as Jon and Dany, or like Asha and Grey Worm). The ship is pretty weird when a crack ship happens. Regular shipping is when you pair two characters who actually have interacted with each other in some capacity and there's an actual chance they'll end up together.

Themoreyouknow.jpg
 
P

pizza dog

Banned
timetokill said:
Wow, is that really offensive? Maybe "preoccupied" is the wrong word. Maybe "interested in?"

I thought it was well known that the vast majority of fanfic authors are women. I don't have a problem with it. More than a couple of women in my life take part themselves.
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I wasn't offended, it's just silly to gender it. This whole fun of this thread is basically speculation and exegesis, we're all taking part in it together. Sometimes it's who-isn't-dead, sometimes who'll-be-king, sometimes who'll-smooch-eachother. Why invoke the stereotype of women gossiping about pairings? What does it add but to marginalize dudes doing the same? No harm no foul, just pushing back a little. Even though we aren't there yet I think it's best to behave as if we do live in a post-gender society.

Also you jokers keep talking about Dany/Jon like it isn't totally inevitable.

A) They're the two most important players on the Prince That Was Promised/Azor Ahai prophecy stage.
B) Jon is definitely one of the three heads of the dragon.
C) There's no way we don't have a dragon-Other showdown. It's the damn Song of Ice and Fire, how do we not bring the fire to the ice?
D) They're both totally irresistible hot babes so when they do cross paths what choice will they have?

It'll be seriously astounding to me if they don't have a big time encounter. Maybe it'll be as lovers, King and Queen bringing salvation to Westeros. Or maybe one of a million other possibilities, but there's zero chance they never meet.

CornBurrito said:
I was talking to some dude about the series today, and it became apparent to me that he was talking about the show version. I asked him if he read the series, and he said "No, because I don't want to read hundreds of shitty pages of filler about nothing but food." His better-than-thou tone made me so fucking tempted to spoil everything for him. The fucker didn't even bother trying to read the books, but just assumed they were about nothing but food because of some third hand internet source.
Click to expand...

Lol. That's such a funny fantasy book trope. Redwall, Harry Potter, people just can't resist setting out a medieval tourney feast.
 
R

Reyne

Member
Wherearemahdragonz said:
There's a difference. Crack-shipping is like when you pair two characters who have absolutely no relation to each other so far (such as Jon and Dany, or like Asha and Grey Worm). The ship is pretty weird when a crack ship happens. Regular shipping is when you pair two characters who actually have interacted with each other in some capacity and there's an actual chance they'll end up together.

Themoreyouknow.jpg
Click to expand...

Now, I am by no means a shipper of any pair, likely or unlikely, but it must be said that thematically speaking, Jon and Daenerys has far more going for them Asha and Grey Worm. I could see how pairing one minor character with another even more minor ( whom is also castrated I might add ) could come across as stretching it. But Jon and Daenerys is tied by more than simply sharing a universe, imo ( and they are also of a similar age and other factors which would make them interesting match ), though I doubt they actually will end up "together", I do not think they are ill-suited to each other... except for the potential aunt/nephew relationship. ;) Not that its worse than many other pairings in this series.
 
W

WhereAreMahDragonz

Banned
Reyne said:
Now, I am by no means a shipper of any pair, likely or unlikely, but it must be said that thematically speaking, Jon and Daenerys has far more going for them Asha and Grey Worm. I could see how pairing one minor character with another even more minor ( whom is also castrated I might add ) could come across as stretching it. But Jon and Daenerys is tied by more than simply sharing a universe, imo ( and they are also of a similar age and other factors which would make them interesting match ), though I doubt they actually will end up "together", I do not think they are ill-suited to each other... except for the potential aunt/nephew relationship. ;) Not that its worse than many other pairings in this series.
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Asha and Grey Worm was simply an example. I didn't mean it as if it's actually possible.

Jon and Dany is probable, yes.
 
C

CornBurrito

Member
Angry Grimace said:
Relation-shipping.

"Shippers" are people who are concerned most of all with putting characters together, vocally and often without any textual support for the pairing. An example of that would be someone who ships Jon Snow-Daenerys, despite the fact they've never met, or Arya-Gendry, despite the fact that Arya is supposed to be, what, 10? 12?
Click to expand...

Shipping doesn't necessitate putting crack pairings together. If it did there would be no such concept as a ship tease, which is where the author of a work deliberately has characters in the same scene with varying degrees of romantic subtext to whip everyone who ships the pair into a frenzy.
 
L

Laurentius

Member
RE: Jon and Dany: it would be even more interesting if the theories about him becoming a warg-wight come true. If that's indeed what Coldhands is (which I think is very likely) I could see that happening. Ice and Fire indeed.
 
P

pizza dog

Banned
SenseiJinx said:
RE: Jon and Dany: it would be even more interesting if the theories about him becoming a warg-wight come true. If that's indeed what Coldhands is (which I think is very likely) I could see that happening. Ice and Fire indeed.
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That Coldhands was a warg who transferred into a wight makes sense.

Though wouldn't any warg be a warg wight? Wargs can take humans, they just usually don't or find it difficult. Taking a wight should be easier than taking an animal even? I guess their zombish nature isn't totally clear. I mean with animals and people wargs sort of push their soul or Essence or whatever out of the way. If wightness means not having that, any warg would find it easy I'd think?
 
C

CornBurrito

Member
SenseiJinx said:
RE: Jon and Dany: it would be even more interesting if the theories about him becoming a warg-wight come true. If that's indeed what Coldhands is (which I think is very likely) I could see that happening. Ice and Fire indeed.
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Didn't Dany have a vision of being fucked by an ice cold cock?
 
L

Laurentius

Member
pizza dog said:
That Coldhands was a warg who transferred into a wight makes sense.

Though wouldn't any warg be a warg wight? Wargs can take humans, they just usually don't or find it difficult. Taking a wight should be easier than taking an animal even? I guess their zombish nature isn't totally clear. I mean with animals and people wargs sort of push their soul or Essence or whatever out of the way. If wightness means not having that, any warg would find it easy I'd think?
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Well, I think the theory goes that Coldhands was killed, and he automatically warged into some animal nearby. He sees his body becoming a wight and essentially thinks "I wonder..." and attempts to warg back into his own body. Now he has control of his body again! Albeit dead...

The more I think about it, the more I think that Jon is really dead, but has/will warg into Ghost. That would partially explain why GRRM included the chapter at the beginning of ADWD with the wildling warg who talks about warging into an animal when his human body dies. It just makes sense to me that he would warg into Ghost, and if his body then became a wight before the watch burns it, he could warg back into it.

Didn't Dany have a vision of being fucked by an ice cold cock?
Click to expand...

Can't say I remember anything like that...
 
C

CornBurrito

Member
PhoenixPause said:
...well, she dreamed of a blue rose frozen in a wall of ice.
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I thought she dreamt of making love to soemone but his touch was cold. I could have sworn....

also do we know who the ghost of winterfell is? The one that kills a bunch of southtrons in the theon chapters? If the wildling women are to be believed, it wasn't them. I assume it is some Manderly swordsman.
 
W

WhereAreMahDragonz

Banned
CornBurrito said:
I thought she dreamt of making love to soemone but his touch was cold. I could have sworn....

also do we know who the ghost of winterfell is? The one that kills a bunch of southtrons in the theon chapters? If the wildling women are to be believed, it wasn't them. I assume it is some Manderly swordsman.
Click to expand...

We never find out, no. I'm assuming its one of Roose's men.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
CornBurrito said:
I thought she dreamt of making love to soemone but his touch was cold. I could have sworn...
Click to expand...
ohhh that was Loraq, when she was in bed with Daario and wondering about marrying him for peace.

CornBurrito said:
also do we know who the ghost of winterfell is? The one that kills a bunch of southtrons in the theon chapters? If the wildling women are to be believed, it wasn't them. I assume it is some Manderly swordsman.
Click to expand...

I've posted it before but this really goes deep into that question: http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/HuisClos.html

I think most people, even those who don't like ADWD, tend to agree the northern chapters were damn good. Especially the Winterfell chapters.

And for another "oh sheeeeiit" candidate for the Hooded Man...
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.ph...yle-is-the-hooded-man-in-wf-theon-i-spoilers/
 
C

CornBurrito

Member
PhoenixPause said:
ohhh that was Loraq, when she was in bed with Daario and wondering about marrying him for peace.



I've posted it before but this really goes deep into that question: http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/HuisClos.html

I think most people, even those who don't like ADWD, tend to agree the northern chapters were damn good. Especially the Winterfell chapters.

And for another "oh sheeeeiit" candidate for the Hooded Man...
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.ph...yle-is-the-hooded-man-in-wf-theon-i-spoilers/
Click to expand...

What is the hooded man? I don't recall there being a character like that...
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
CornBurrito said:
What is the hooded man? I don't recall there being a character like that...
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Technically is the "ghost of Winterfell" considering it was the name of his POV. "The Hooded Man" refers to this:
“Farther on, he came upon a man striding in the opposite direction, a hooded cloak flapping behind him. When they found themselves face-to-face their eyes met briefly. The man put a hand on his dagger. “Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer.”

“I’m not. I never … I was ironborn.”

“False is all you were. How is it you still breathe?”

“The gods are not done with me,” Theon answered, wondering if this could be the killer, the night walker who had stuffed Yellow Dick’s cock into his mouth and pushed Roger Ryswell’s groom off the battlements.

Oddly, he was not afraid. He pulled the glove from his left hand. “Lord Ramsay is not done with me.”

The man looked, and laughed. “I leave you to him, then.”
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It's theorized he is the one killing Frey/Bolton men, at least the ones the Spearwives didn't kill. He's someone who hasn't seen Theon in awhile apparently, yet managed to recognize him instantly.
 
T

timetokill

Banned
Wherearemahdragonz said:
It's quite a big generalization. Plus your response just sounded really negative and condescending. I don't have a problem with what you said but the tone made it sound rude.
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Sorry if the tone came across that way. I didn't mean to be condescending.


pizza dog said:
I wasn't offended, it's just silly to gender it. This whole fun of this thread is basically speculation and exegesis, we're all taking part in it together. Sometimes it's who-isn't-dead, sometimes who'll-be-king, sometimes who'll-smooch-eachother. Why invoke the stereotype of women gossiping about pairings? What does it add but to marginalize dudes doing the same? No harm no foul, just pushing back a little. Even though we aren't there yet I think it's best to behave as if we do live in a post-gender society.
Click to expand...

I see. I wasn't trying to invoke a stereotype, I was just trying to give a bit of information about the background of it to the person who wasn't familiar with it. Whether it's a "stereotype" or not, it's fact that the vast, vast majority of fanfic authors are women, and fanfic is like 95% about shipping characters.

I don't think it has to be a negative if something is a thing that women are primarily interested in. Or, the relative lack of men's interest doesn't have to be a negative.
 
W

WhereAreMahDragonz

Banned
L

Laurentius

Member
Oh wow, I feel silly. For this entire page I've thought that timetokill's avatar was Astroboy. And then in his last post I realized it's actually Earthworm Jim.

*facepalm*

It doesn't even look anything like Astroboy, but my brain just interpreted it as him in my peripheral vision. The hole Jim is coming out of was his hair, and his wound up body was Astroboy's face. He was diving towards the earth.

Silly brain.

Anyway, carry on.
 
T

timetokill

Banned
Wherearemahdragonz said:
Now if only half the characters in this series knew those three words..
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It'd be a short series, that's for sure!


SenseiJinx said:
Oh wow, I feel silly. For this entire page I've thought that timetokill's avatar was Astroboy. And then in his last post I realized it's actually Earthworm Jim.

*facepalm*

It doesn't even look anything like Astroboy, but my brain just interpreted it as him in my peripheral vision. The hole Jim is coming out of was his hair, and his wound up body was Astroboy's face. He was diving towards the earth.

Silly brain.

Anyway, carry on.
Click to expand...

hahaha, wow

My wife says she can see it but I'm at a loss myself... I probably can't separate the image in my head :p Pretty funny though.
 
L

Laurentius

Member
timetokill said:
My wife says she can see it but I'm at a loss myself... I probably can't separate the image in my head :p Pretty funny though.
Click to expand...

I can still kind of see it when not looking directly at it, but my brain has figured things out I guess, so it's not the same as it was. Funny how that happens...

Sorry for the aside, everyone. Carry on with ASOIAF.

Oh, here's a subject I'm actually kinda interested in. Who are some of people's favorite minor characters? (Minor preferably meaning they are in maybe 2 or 3 chapters max.)

I'm quite fond of Septon Meribald myself. He really gave us a glimpse into what the common person experiences during these wars, which we don't often get to see in ASOIAF. He had some of the best quotes in the series, and seems to be the most charitable religious person we meet. And he was also one of the only to (supposedly) try and understand and help the Hound. I think most of us have something of a soft spot for Sandor, so hopefully he finds a bit of happiness on Quiet Isle, thanks to Meribald.
 
P

pizza dog

Banned
HOWLAND GODSDAMNED REED. He's only appeared "on camera" through Jojen's stories or off-hand mentions by Ned. I love the little story about the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

He was a POV character so definitely not minor, but I really liked our Kingsguard in Dorne arc. Pretty low-key, largely self-contained story. Really a beautiful death. Such blustering impotence. Hotah's similarly awesome. I'd be kind of surprised if we saw him again, but he rocks such quiet assured competence and perfect duty.

Also that captain's sister (? Or lover? I forget) who prodded Sam and Gilly into boning was cool. That ship being our only real access to the Summer Islanders.

Friends. I don't want to alarm anyone but there are a shit-ton of characters in this series. I could post for days about little dudes and babes I who are cool.
 
M

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
^ IMO Arys Oakheart and Areo Hotah are minor characters despite being POV, they have very little development and page time.

SenseiJinx said:
Oh, here's a subject I'm actually kinda interested in. Who are some of people's favorite minor characters? (Minor preferably meaning they are in maybe 2 or 3 chapters max.)
Click to expand...
That would cover fan favourites such as Qhorin Halfhand, Syrio Forel and Oberyn Martell (well, the Red Viper might be in a few more chapters but surprisingly few). Re-reading AGoT I was surprised to see how few chapters Syrio and Qhorin were in. GRRM sure writes memorable characters, even those with little page time. Maybe their memorable deaths/last stands help.
 
R

Reyne

Member
PhoenixPause said:
Some people do believe Theon is the one killing people, but doesn't realize it. Seems far fetched considering he can barely grip a dagger...
Click to expand...

Perhaps. It really comes down to how much of a unreliable narrator Theon is. I mean, the POV usually reflects the state of mind of the characters. Sansa for instance, sincerely seemed to believe that the hound kissed her ( speaking of which, Sansa/Sandor is pretty popular among the shippers ). Theon is probably the least stable ( post-torture ) POV and therefore probably the most unreliable narrator in the whole series.

But I agree with you, I don't think Theon had it in him, physically or mentally, to kill anyone at that time. Though there is obviously a lot of information withheld from us regarding the Theon chapters ( such as the identity of the hooded man and other characters ) , simply because he is so much in a daze, wandering around Winterfell while reminiscing. It would be interesting if the hooded man was just a part of his imagination, though.
 
T

timetokill

Banned
SenseiJinx said:
Oh, here's a subject I'm actually kinda interested in. Who are some of people's favorite minor characters? (Minor preferably meaning they are in maybe 2 or 3 chapters max.)
Click to expand...
All of the Martells and Sand Snakes. I don't think Arianne will end up being much of a minor character moving forward though, or at least I hope not.


Reyne said:
speaking of which, Sansa/Sandor is pretty popular among the shippers
Click to expand...
It's called "SanSan" get it right
 
L

Laurentius

Member
pizza dog said:
HOWLAND GODSDAMNED REED. He's only appeared "on camera" through Jojen's stories or off-hand mentions by Ned. I love the little story about the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

He was a POV character so definitely not minor, but I really liked our Kingsguard in Dorne arc. Pretty low-key, largely self-contained story. Really a beautiful death. Such blustering impotence. Hotah's similarly awesome. I'd be kind of surprised if we saw him again, but he rocks such quiet assured competence and perfect duty.

Also that captain's sister (? Or lover? I forget) who prodded Sam and Gilly into boning was cool. That ship being our only real access to the Summer Islanders.

Friends. I don't want to alarm anyone but there are a shit-ton of characters in this series. I could post for days about little dudes and babes I who are cool.
Click to expand...

I barely remember anything that was said about Howland Reed...part of the problem of listening to the audio book for a lot of the series. (I read about half of the series and listened to the other half.) Sometimes there are things distracting me while listening and I miss parts here and there. (Although I do love me some audio books, and Roy Dotrice is great.) Really need to go back and refresh my memory on the little that was said about Reed.

And good point about the Summer Islanders that Sam and Gilly travelled with. Great characters.

Morrigan Targaryen said:
That would cover fan favourites such as Qhorin Halfhand, Syrio Forel and Oberyn Martell (well, the Red Viper might be in a few more chapters but surprisingly few). Re-reading AGoT I was surprised to see how few chapters Syrio and Qhorin were in. GRRM sure writes memorable characters, even those with little page time. Maybe their memorable deaths/last stands help.
Click to expand...

Qhorin was a great character. (I was sad about how poorly they handled his arc in the show. The pivotal moment between him and Jon was all but lost on most viewers because of how they handled it, which leads to a lot of confusion about Jon's motives for joining the Wildlings.)


I suppose Benjen could also count as a "minor" character in the series. He disappears so early in the first book. Hopefully we find out what happened to him someday...I can't see that we won't, given how often he was mentioned during the next four books. I don't think that he is Coldhands, but I do think we'll either see him again or find out what really happened to him.
 
C

CornBurrito

Member
PhoenixPause said:
Some people do believe Theon is the one killing people, but doesn't realize it. Seems far fetched considering he can barely grip a dagger...
Click to expand...

I don't believe that at all. I just thought the Hooded Man was a representation of his conscience, that Theon mistook for an actual person. Him thinking "I wonder if this guy is the killer" to me wasn't him admitting he did the killings. But him mistaking his conscience as an actual person while being in a state of delirium.

Also if Benjen is Cold Hands I'll be pissed. That Child of the Forest girl told Bran that Cold Hands died "long ago" and frequently mentions how she is at least 200+ years old and how little a period of time a human life is compared to her race's lifespan.
 
L

Laurentius

Member
CornBurrito said:
Also if Benjen is Cold Hands I'll be pissed. That Child of the Forest girl told Bran that Cold Hands died "long ago" and frequently mentions how she is at least 200+ years old and how little a period of time a human life is compared to her race's lifespan.
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Yeah, I definitely doubt that Coldhands is Benjen for that very reason.

Maybe he was taken captive by the Others? Could be a way of finally giving us a glimpse into who/what they are.

Or maybe he's just dead and we'll never see or hear from him again.
 
C

CornBurrito

Member
SenseiJinx said:
Yeah, I definitely doubt that Coldhands is Benjen for that very reason.

Maybe he was taken captive by the Others? Could be a way of finally giving us a glimpse into who/what they are.

Or maybe he's just dead and we'll never see or hear from him again.
Click to expand...

I'm taking bets that Benjen is/was a Warg and died, but managed to possess Mormont's raven.
Something is definitely possessing that raven. Maybe it is the Last Greenseer though.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
If Benjen is alive, where is he? Bran and company BARELY survived in the far north, I don't think Benjen would do much better. I love the idea of him trying to find out who/what the Others are but the idea of him reaching the Land of Always Winter seems too fantastical for the series.

Maybe he's in a cave as well, who knows.
 
L

Laurentius

Member
CornBurrito said:
I'm taking bets that Benjen is/was a Warg and died, but managed to possess Mormont's raven.
Something is definitely possessing that raven. Maybe it is the Last Greenseer though.
Click to expand...

Hm, interesting theory on the Raven. The Greenseer seems more likely to me, but I suppose it could be Benjen. Never thought of that before.

PhoenixPause said:
If Benjen is alive, where is he? Bran and company BARELY survived in the far north, I don't think Benjen would do much better. I love the idea of him trying to find out who/what the Others are but the idea of him reaching the Land of Always Winter seems too fantastical for the series.

Maybe he's in a cave as well, who knows.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it definitely seems like a stretch that Benjen would have been able to survive out there for all that time. Unless the Others were specifically keeping him alive for something...which also seems like a stretch.

If he does show back up, it does seem the more likely that it'll be as an animal that he warged into as he died, then that he's hanging out in the Land of Always Winter or a captive of the Others.
 
W

WhereAreMahDragonz

Banned
Dawg said:
Just finished the books.

Hai.
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Welcome to the Promised Land.

SenseiJinx said:
Oh, here's a subject I'm actually kinda interested in. Who are some of people's favorite minor characters? (Minor preferably meaning they are in maybe 2 or 3 chapters max.)
Click to expand...

I second Howland Reed! If we were talking about just non-POV characters though I'd say Ygritte, no question.

That being said, I also love all of the wildling commanders like Harma and Tormund. I think their wild culture is really interesting and I find myself just feeling for them whenever something bad happens.

Edit: I totally forgot the Sand Snakes but I think they're awesome and just as great as the wildlings.
 
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