Unless, you know, not.
I'm really happy about this one, this is the double-stupidest theory yet.
God we need a new book.
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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
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Unless, you know, not.
I'm really happy about this one, this is the double-stupidest theory yet.
God we need a new book.
CornBurrito
Member
I don't think I understand how you are trying to use English here.
Everything we've seen from Arya's chapters suggests that Faceless Man training wouldn't be successful if you were going to use your talents to gain the Iron Throne and become a fucking king.
Can anyone give any evidence for Euron being a Faceless Man?
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
Probably....... but some people think it isn't just that.
Forsaken82
Member
Do You mind spoilering shit from Winds of Winter? I thought that was mentioned in the original post? If I am wrong about this tell me now and Ill get the fuck outta this thread.
I understand its not MUCH of a spoiler but I would rather NOT know who is associated in various chapters especially when
said characters are supposedly dead (even if I never believed it )
i just read a chapter and so far no spoilers about characters supposed to be dead .
theon's chapter....with Thon, Stannis, Asha...
Nice chapter actually; still amazes me the fact than Theon doesn't tell anyone the truth about Bran and Rickon 's false deaths or the truth about the false Arya Stark married to Ramsay.
Both things would redeem him a little a bit in front of the north. Maybe the tortures were too much for him and a Reek persona is more important than his old theon self...
Nice chapter actually; still amazes me the fact than Theon doesn't tell anyone the truth about Bran and Rickon 's false deaths or the truth about the false Arya Stark married to Ramsay.
Both things would redeem him a little a bit in front of the north. Maybe the tortures were too much for him and a Reek persona is more important than his old theon self...
ToyMachine228
Member
O SHIT
Because humans? You could learn all the skills and spells, go out into the world as a Faceless Man, change your mind about what they believe and still have what they know?
Fucking obviously Euron isn't a Faceless Man but why wouldn't a rogue Faceless Man be possible.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
I doubt that very much. At the end of ADWD Theon became Theon again.
Forsaken82
Member
As of aDwD Stannis is presumed dead
from the original post
A
A More Normal Bird
Unconfirmed Member
Chronologically, the released chapter takes place before the end of ADWD. Should probably still be spoilered, just letting you know.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
I don't believe for a second that Jon's dead.
If anything GRRM will do something insane and have his POV chapters be him as white walker. That'd be freaky.
Or Val saves him.
If anything GRRM will do something insane and have his POV chapters be him as white walker. That'd be freaky.
Or Val saves him.
Laurentius
Member
A white walker or a wight? As far as we know so far humans don't become white walkers...
A wight could be interesting, especially given the ones that Jon was keeping on the off chance there was still something of their old selves left in them. And we know it's possible for a wight to retain its sanity SOMEHOW, because of Coldhands. (Although I think I buy into the theory that he was a warg who was killed, then warged back into his own body.)
That would indeed be interesting if Jon became like Coldhands. Especially given all the theories about what he might become later in the series. 0.0
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
Wight then. I always get them confused. I just think it would be awesome to have that perspective; to really understand how wights operate and behave. Being like Coldhands would be awesome too.
Also, what theories? You can PM them to me if you don't want to post them here.
CornBurrito
Member
Because no evidence suggests it as possible.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
Agreed. They've hinted numerous times that you lose your entire being by becoming a Faceless Man, and if that's true, then every potential reason for leaving a person may have had before are now null and void. Those reasons don't exist.
That being said, I'm also theorizing that there's some serious brainwashing / sorcery that goes into making a person completely "lose themselves".
CornBurrito
Member
It is also pretty clearly stated that Euron has always been a hugely selfish and egotistical maniac. To get over that all, become a Faceless Man, and then go back to being selfish and egotistical seems unlikely.
Laurentius
Member
Well, if Jon really is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, he has a claim to the Iron Throne. Not to mention the fact that he should be the king in the north, if/when Robb's will shows up. Some people think he might be one head of "the three headed dragon", especially if he really is a Targaryen. Some people have even wondered if he's Azor Ahai.
I dunno if any of that will happen, but imagine if they did and John was a wight, like Coldhands. =O A wight trying to claim the Iron Throne. Or riding a dragon.
Man, I kind of hope that happens now. I'm definitely keen to the theory that Coldhands is a warg-wight. We know that at the very least wargs can live on in their animals -- so in all likelihood if Jon really was killed there would be part of him in Ghost. If his body then became a wight, he could potentially warg back in. Imagine the Watch's surprise if his dead body stands up, and begins talking to them, completely cognizant.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
Kind of a side note, but if there's one thing I want out of the next two books, it's to learn what happened to Syrio.
Laurentius
Member
Agreed! Although I'm fairly sure he's dead. =(
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
I hope not. But I'd at least like some closure.
I could see him being one of the heads of the dragon, but a big part of me feels like he's not Azor Ahai. A friend of mine believes it's Davos, which makes sense in regards to how ironic it would be. Maybe he's a secret bastard of Aerys or something. They never went into detail about his lineage, right?
As for him being King in the North, I could see it happening. It just seems...really predictable to me. George probably wouldn't go for it, and Jon would never abandon his brothers, even if they betrayed him. That's not really who he is.
I believe 100% that he is the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar though.
Laurentius
Member
Yeah, I don't think he's Azor Ahai either. (Personally, I don't think GRRM will ever come out and specifically name a character as AA. Either it's just a myth from the followers of R'hllor, or it will be left up to interpretation clear until the end and beyond.)
Haha, Davos would be awesome. If only because I love him as a character. I've also heard arguments towards Jaime (and pretty much any other character in the series).
I do feel like there's something very important coming up with him being the King in the North at least. Whether he'll accept it (or whether the people will accept him) is another question. But the scene where Robb writes him into the will seemed too important to just forget about. The Greatjon is still alive, right? I think he was there when Robb wrote the will. With how much he loved Robb, I could see him and the Umbers vehemently backing Jon as King in the North if he ever gets freed from the Freys.
Also, did anybody else feel bad for Kevan Lannister? He was basically killed because he was too competent. =\ I always liked him as a character, and wish we would have gotten more POV chapters with him.
CornBurrito
Member
Jon has no claim to the Iron Throne regardless of bloodline. He is a man of the Night's Watch. He gave up all lands and titles when he joined. He can no more claim the Throne than Maester Aemon, and nor would he unless his personality and beliefs radically changed.
Some people think he was secretly Ja'quen Haghaar.
Laurentius
Member
This is true, but it doesn't mean that can't change. Jon seems to be heading towards forgetting his vows by the end of ADWD. And that book made sure to repeatedly repeat the concept that vows are words and words are wind.
The Night's Watch seems to be crumbling, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was completely gone by the time the series is over (or at least drastically changed).
Stannis was going to essentially "excuse" Jon from his vows to become the warden of the North. That doesn't fall within the rules of the Night's Watch, but that doesn't stop something like that from happening. Words are wind.
There would be repercussions but I wouldn't rule out the possibility because of the vows.
I don't think he'll sit on the Iron Throne in the end, but I at least think the possibility is open. Regardless, I think whatever happens will surprise us (meaning it probably won't be any of the possibilities I mentioned).
CornBurrito
Member
Speaking of which, I hate the phrase "words are wind." I'm pretty sure it only appeared in book 5 (maybe book 4) and then suddenly spread across the world and is used by every fucking character at least once per chapter. -_-
And yes Stannis was going to make Jon the Lord of Winterfell, Jon rejected. Vows are only wind if broken. The phrase "words are wind" doesn't mean that words SHOULD be wind. Only that many people take vows lightly.
Anyway if Jon does make claim to the Iron Throne, hopefully Dany beds him and weds him. He's kind of a badass and she likes that in a man.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
That seems way too convenient, but at this point, anything's possible.
Laurentius
Member
Haha, agreed. Love how it became the favorite phrase in both Westeros and Essos almost instantaneously.
For sure, but it seemed to me that Jon was heading in the direction of breaking his vows by the end of ADWD. If I read it correctly he was basically planning on taking an army of wildlings to Winterfell to declare war on Ramsey. Taking part in the affairs of the kingdoms, and largely for a family member.
If that's not breaking the vows of the Night's Watch, I dunno what is. =\
At this point, if he surives, I don't think the Night's Watch in it's current form will want him anymore. In fact, it would certainly not be a good idea for his continued survival.
CornBurrito
Member
Laurentius
Member
Interesting, good point.
I can see it now. An undead Jon, leading an army of Wildlings against Winterfell. Dunno if Ned ever saw that happening when he sent Jon to the wall.
(That seems like the obvious thing to happen in my mind, so chances are it won't. I'm terrible at predicting things, especially things in ASOIAF.)
CornBurrito
Member
Ah I haven't gotten to that point of Jon's chapters yet.
Why am I reading this thread you ask? Spoilers increase my enjoyment.
There's plenty of evidence, the whole series is evidence. Kingsguard kill kings, Night's Watch desert and raise armies/kingdoms, Maesters and Septons bone up storms. Bannermen break guestright and murder their lords.
Faceless Men are humans and if there's one thing we haven't seen in the whole series is an ironclad oath.
Why are we even following Arya's training with them? So she can go off and assassinate people quietly Asshai beyond the Shadow? Naw, she's got shit to do in Westeros still. The indoctrination part of the training really isn't taking too powerfully to root with her.
CornBurrito
Member
Arya's not far into the training. Also the training needed to become a Faceless Man is significantly more... brainwashy... than the training required to become Kingsguard, NightsWatch, or a Maester. The latter only say vows. The former makes no vows, but undergoes training that seems to take a large amount of time. I mean fucking Jaquen said he would have to kill himself if Arya didn't take back her 3rd wish. That's pretty fucking insane dedication to the job when as far as I have seen they don't even have to take vows.
And Euron at the very least is never presented as someone who could become a Faceless Man. Everyone remembers him as being just as he is now, and always being that way. There's no evidence suggesting he went from egotistical prick, to Faceless Man, to back to egotistical prick.
lol yes Euron isn't a Faceless Man everyone agrees there. But to hold them up as unimpeachable is still totally silly. Jaquen sounded pretty committed to his job sure. Donal Noye was pretty fucking committed to his job. Doesn't make the Night King not exist.
They gave Arya a target, rewarded her with robes and advancement, but she's still got deep wolfish roots and Needle squirrelled away.
One way or the other we'll have a rogue Faceless Man by the Song's coda.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
It'll probably be Arya though, and I'm not sure that really counts.
Forsaken82
Member
Well that is good to know then.
CornBurrito
Member
I'm missing something. Isn't the Night King a myth? Perhaps you should have used Mance Rayder. But the Night's Watch takes some of the worst men ever, and then makes them say vows. Meanwhile the Faceless Men seem rather selective, can discern lies and true intent, and their training isn't vows, but lengthy indoctrination. None of which the Night's Watch has.
Arya has Needle for now. She may one day give it up. She's also 9, and the training the Faceless Men give seems to take a long time. I think maybe some people drop out of the training with considerable skill, but I don't think a genuine Faceless Man who serves the guild and completed their training would make claim to the Iron Throne.
Arya is also a warg, which might muck things up, because being a warg ties your identity to an animal. She can't be no one if Nymeria exists and she is intrinsically tied to her.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
Speaking of, I would love to see how she implements that ability in her assassinations if and when she goes back to Westeros.
A reunion with Nymeria would be nice too.
Is he? Is it Gran with the line about all the best myths are rooted in truth?
I know for damn sure it's Chekov with the line about the gun. The Rat King might just be an exaggeration about a cannibal in the North one winter, but a man of the Watch shacking up with an Other seems like too big a deal to mention if it doesn't mean or come to anything.
lol. It's funny about the show that one of the best parts is how badass Arya is, but playing her as teenage angst totally throws off how thuggin she is as a straight up kid in the books.
Can't wait for a Stark riding into some battle at the head of a literal wolf army.
Laurentius
Member
Some people think Coldhands might be the Night's King.
I dunno if that's the case, but it seems more likely then Benjen (as much as I want that to be true). The line from the COTF that says "they killed him long ago" seems to put to rest the Benjen theories. I think GRRM wanted most of us to think it was Benjen at first, but he put little hints that it's not.
I dunno if that's the case, but it seems more likely then Benjen (as much as I want that to be true). The line from the COTF that says "they killed him long ago" seems to put to rest the Benjen theories. I think GRRM wanted most of us to think it was Benjen at first, but he put little hints that it's not.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
MAKE IT HAPPEN, GEORGE!
iamshadowlark
Banned
Im pretty sure Robb is coming back as a wolf.
Hah I've always figured Jon would have too hard a time boning Dany as a wolf--and boning her is his destiny--but if he doesn't maintain/retake human form, Arya stabbing fools from wolf-Jon's back would be pretty glorious.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Robb was/is my favorite character in the series, so maybe I'm just half delusional lol. I would love for him to come back and get some kind of revenge and give me some closure over the Red Wedding but there's the question of who? Joffery and Tywin are long dead, I somewhat like Tyrion and Jaime, Cersei hit rock bottom, etc. I don't feel anything for the remaining Frey's so offing them would seem fruitless.
IDK where I would want George to take this and he's a cruel bastard so it would probably be some twisted shit. Maybe he comes back and murders Rickon or Bran.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
You're not half delusional. You're way past half and well into "fully".
GRRM even went so far as to kill the wolf and have it's head attached to Robb to make sure this would never even be a debate.
iamshadowlark
Banned
You're not half delusional. You're way past half and well into "fully".
A man can dream
That gives me even more reason to believe it. This gut could totally reek havok on a battlefield:
GRRM has also done a bit of what I think is foreshadowing with the whole "the young wolf was said to become a wolf and eat his enemies" narrative.
CornBurrito
Member
I hate this attitude of everything being foreshadowing. Why can't that line just be a line made up by the Freys so that the northern lords can't outright attack even if they know it is most likely a lie?
They killed his wolf. Wargs get a second life, usually in the first animal they skinchanged with. Did Robb even get to the point where he skinchanged in his sleep? Even if he did get his second life why would he now come back as some unrelated never before seen Direwolf or shitty little regular wolf?
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