CornBurrito
Member
Oh right.... yeah that's my bad. Will edit correct name in.
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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
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Oh right.... yeah that's my bad. Will edit correct name in.
timetokill
Banned
Meh, it's not even that it was just kinslaying, it was also kingslaying. The king in the north!
I say they're all guilty, the north remembers, a pox on their house, etc. I know you feel differently, but hey
CornBurrito
Member
Also if I understand the writer enough, Jon isn't dead. He was "killed" in the same way other "lol jk not really dead" characters have "died." (See Tyrion falling into the water). Oh and I am guessing Bolton is lying about killing Stannis.
timetokill
Banned
Yeah, nobody thinks Jon is permanently dead. The only way to surprise readers on that front is him actually being dead, and even then it would take several characters reiterating, "Yeah, wow, I can't believe he's forever dead, not even ______ could bring him back," debunking each theory one by one down the line.
Laurentius
Member
I can't say I agree with wholesale slaughter of all of the Frey's either...
In regards to Jon, I'm still thinking that the theory of him becoming a warg-wight (like Coldhands potentially is) is fairly possible. I mean, GRRM made sure to emphasize how many times he was stabbed. And given that there is likely to be a huge riot about to break out between the Night's Watch, the Wildlings, and the Queensmen...makes it hard for me to believe that he's going to make it out intact. I'd be really surprised if he was able to just be nursed back to health.
Or maybe Melisandre will pull a Beric Dondarrien on him?
But what do I know? If there's anything GRRM has taught me, it's that I'm horrid at predicting things.
In regards to Jon, I'm still thinking that the theory of him becoming a warg-wight (like Coldhands potentially is) is fairly possible. I mean, GRRM made sure to emphasize how many times he was stabbed. And given that there is likely to be a huge riot about to break out between the Night's Watch, the Wildlings, and the Queensmen...makes it hard for me to believe that he's going to make it out intact. I'd be really surprised if he was able to just be nursed back to health.
Or maybe Melisandre will pull a Beric Dondarrien on him?
But what do I know? If there's anything GRRM has taught me, it's that I'm horrid at predicting things.
SenseiJinx! You should come by the NS chat! Some of us are still there, believe it or not.
In terms of the discussion, there seems to be two threads which are getting mixed up. One is whether you agree with what they are doing and the second is whether you find it interesting to the narrative. Initially, we were discussing whether we found it interesting, but that seems very heavily tied to whether people agree with what they are doing.
I have avoided predictions altogether and I think I'm happier off for it. I'd prefer to discuss what's already happened rather than try to guess what's coming next. One naturally flows into the other, but sometimes I feel the focus is far too much on the future. Of course, if the novels came out in a more timely fashion, maybe that wouldn't happen as much.
CornBurrito
Member
He was stabbed like three times I think. The first a grazing blow, merely a flesh wound. The other two I think were in his gut. He can live through that.
Laurentius
Member
Cool, will do! I was actually just about to send you a message to say hi, after seeing you post in this topic! I'll stop by the chat and see how you all are doing. I disappeared off the face of the earth for a couple of years. I've checked out the forums a few times since coming back, and they've seemed fairly dead. =(
Ah, makes sense. I skimmed over a bunch of the discussion, so I think I missed the distinction. I'll definitely agree that it's certainly an interesting situation, regardless of its moral merits. (And actually, Breaking Bad taught me that getting into moral discussions about actions of fictional characters can get really messy, so I generally try to avoid doing so these days.)
It makes perfect sense that LS wants to see all of the Frey's hanged, and seeing the descent of the Brotherhood makes for good storytelling.
I have avoided predictions altogether and I think I'm happier off for it. I'd prefer to discuss what's already happened rather than try to guess what's coming next. One naturally flows into the other, but sometimes I feel the focus is far too much on the future. Of course, if the novels came out in a more timely fashion, maybe that wouldn't happen as much.
I like being able to think about what happens next, but I'll agree that there's probably too much emphasis on that. There's so many interesting things to talk about in regards to what has already occurred.
Speaking of, has anybody read this series of articles on the whole Meereen situation?
http://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/
I'll admit I was one of those readers that groaned inwardly every time I got to a Meereen chapter in ADWD. The situation was complex, and I seemed to be missing a lot of what was actually going on. It got more interesting to me as more and more connections with Westeros began to slowly show up (Victarion heading that way, Tyrion, Quenten, even if Quenten is the only one that's actually met Dany so far). But I still felt less connected to what was happening then I have been with Westeros.
I'm about halfway through the articles on that site, though, and the author has really opened my eyes in regards to the Meereen situation. It's a lot more interesting then I gave it credit for. I'm actually considering re-reading just the Meereen chapters now to see what I can pick up on that I missed before.
His argument that Skahaz mo Kandaq was the locust poisoner is very strong, and casts an entirely new light on a lot of the events. In particular, it casts an entirely new light on Barristan's choices, which are likely to make things much, much worse then they could have otherwise been.
Hm, sounds like I need to re-read that part. I think I just looked at the wiki [which isn't always the most dependable] the last time I wanted to double check my facts, and that just said something about "being stabbed repeatedly". Sounds much more plausible that he could survive that then what I had pictured in my mind.
CornBurrito
Member
Knife wound 1: "Wick, put that knife..." Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so that it barely grazed his skin. He cut me.
Wick attempts another stab but Jon catches his hand and twists until Wick drops the dagger.
Knife wound 2: Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.
Jon falls to his knees and pulls out the dagger.
Knife Wound 3: "Ghost" he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow.
Knife Wound 4: He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold...
So four knife wounds. One a grazing cut that probably didn't do real damage. One in the stomach, one between the shoulder blades, and one unknown.
edit: @ above: I also have serious doubts about Hizdahr being the culprit. Or at the very least he seems more a puppet than the actual mastermind. I'm not going to be shocked if Selmy can't produce any real evidence and Hizdahr ends up being innocent.
edit2: I know it isn't the case, but wouldn't it be funny if Robert Strong was actually the beheaded Eddard Stark instead of the beheaded Gregor Clegane? I'd laugh.
These are really good. I still don't 100% buy his case for Daario (that's a whole lot of time to spend dwelling on a symbol) but otherwise it's really solid. I had come to the same conclusion that he had, that Meereen was largely about breaking Dany of her desire to always be the good guy, but I hadn't picked up on the stuff he had about how close peace really was. That really changes the meaning of the whole thing - from being a sort of Machiavellian parable about how peace requires violence into a tragedy about cultural misunderstanding.
Also I had picked up a sort of racism in the Meereen plot in my reading, with all it's faceless foreigners conspiring sinisterly, but this makes a pretty strong case that the story is more about the consequences of Dany's own prejudices against the Meereenese, and that the Meereenese characters themselves are really pretty well-rendered and complex people just going about their own interests. I actually find Skahaz to be a pretty interesting character after that.
You are a hideous monster.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
So which level of hell did you crawl out of?
CornBurrito
Member
The seventh, obviously.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I haven't read the article yet but Hizdar is the one who tried to get Dany to eat the locusts. The Shavepate seemed the most loyal to Dany, and is one of the few characters who lost power after her disappearance.
CornBurrito
Member
And he might have actually thought them tasty but not been in the mood for them. There's no hard proof he did it, only circumstantial evidence. I won't be shocked of he did it, but I won't be surprised if he didn't.
Y'all, here's my hang up with all of Meereen everything. Is any of it at all consequential to the Song? I mean to say, we know Dany's bound for Westeros where the actual business of magic frost monsters goes down. Right her destiny is to get mixed up in some shit over there.
What I'm missing is this: to what extent are the Walkers an existential threat to mankind? Does Essos experience winter? Do the Walkers also exist in the northern reaches of Essos? If they overrun the wall, could the walkers also cross the narrow sea?
If yes to any of these things, then the struggle for the soul of Meereen is less than peanuts in the face of a clear and present danger. And it must be yes, mustn't it? Why did people even settle Westeros if it was the one chunk of land in all the world under yearly siege by soul-devouring monsters?
Dany gets a pass for not seeing the big picture because she can't see it, but we certainly can. And so can GRR. The Slavers' Bay political drama just always feels like a waste of time, like we're just indulging GRR wanting do some stories set on the fields of the Trojan War.
It'd all be cool if it were some allegory for Dany coming into her own, but Martin can't help but stack so many layers of subterfuge and intrigue on there that ultimately is just a side show? Feels like spinning wheels.
What I'm missing is this: to what extent are the Walkers an existential threat to mankind? Does Essos experience winter? Do the Walkers also exist in the northern reaches of Essos? If they overrun the wall, could the walkers also cross the narrow sea?
If yes to any of these things, then the struggle for the soul of Meereen is less than peanuts in the face of a clear and present danger. And it must be yes, mustn't it? Why did people even settle Westeros if it was the one chunk of land in all the world under yearly siege by soul-devouring monsters?
Dany gets a pass for not seeing the big picture because she can't see it, but we certainly can. And so can GRR. The Slavers' Bay political drama just always feels like a waste of time, like we're just indulging GRR wanting do some stories set on the fields of the Trojan War.
It'd all be cool if it were some allegory for Dany coming into her own, but Martin can't help but stack so many layers of subterfuge and intrigue on there that ultimately is just a side show? Feels like spinning wheels.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
Dany's experiences in Meereen are allowing her to develop as a young ruler and as a woman (I know that's cliche, but whatever). George won't send her there until she's ready and fully developed as a character, and frankly, I'm glad. It'll make the battles and conflicts to come that much more interesting.
Also now that's she's training with Drogon, everything that happens at the end will be that much cooler (I hope). I firmly believe that everything that happened in Meereen was build-up to her escape with Drogon, and things will only get better in terms of development from here.
CornBurrito
Member
Pizza dog raises a question I had as well. Is Essos even in danger of the White Walkers/Others? I have to imagine yes, if only because those of the faith of R'hllor talk about the coming of a night that will never end. They seem to prophesize the destruction of the entire world as a result of what goes on beyond the wall in Westeros. However, it is really hard to think of a reason for why Essos would suffer destruction due to Westeros getting overrun by undead.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
I don't really see the WW being a threat to Essos and I believe that the night that never ends references something else. Perhaps something will crawl out or Valyria; we don't really know what's there yet and everyone seems freaked out about it..
I assume that the WW originally targeted Westeros, since their point of origin is on that continent. Likely after overrunning Westeros they'll turn their gaze to the East, perhaps reforging the land bridge in Dorne or harnessing the technology they seize from those conquered to sail across the sea.
Essos might not experience the same level of winter as Westeros, but the WW can make them learn the meaning of cold.
Skahaz lost power when Dany married Hizdahr. He was fired and replaced by Hizdahr's cousin. His power increased after Dany's disappearance when he became an aide to Barristan and helped him remove Hizdahr from power. He was loyal to Dany because she presented him with an opportunity to advance his minor house versus the larger, older houses. That fell apart when Dany made peace with the larger houses and reintegrated them back into Meereenese society more or less at their previous levels of power. He had every reason to try and scuttle the peace.
Laurentius
Member
This is true, but it seems odd that the extent of him trying to feed her the locusts was just a suggestion to try them, and nothing else. After she said she didn't want any, he didn't try to convince her to try at least one, or anything of that sort. He just completely dropped it.
It also seems a very odd venue for him to kill her. As her husband you would think he would have much better opportunities to have her disposed of then during the biggest event in the city, with plenty of witnesses to attest to him offering the locusts to her.
If Skahaz had been behind the locusts being poisoned, Hizdar could easily be framed as his scapegoat, and it could still benefit him if Dany didn't eat the locusts. He seems to have so much more to gain from it then Hizdar would, in my opinion.
CornBurrito
Member
Except Melisandre definitely links the Great Other to the night that never ends...
Yup. Also the whole "he said to kill the dragon!" thing is really weird reasoning. I mean it is a fucking terrifying dragon. I'd definitely be shouting for my guards to kill it when it bursts into a crowded stadium and has already proven itself quite willing and able to cook and eat human flesh.
From the prophecy, it seems that they know that the whole world is at risk. (the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world)
I dont think that a sea would stop the others from advancing. At East Watch. dead things in the water are reported to be seen.
Azor Ahai legend seems quite rooted in the East as the legendary hero who pushed back the others. Maybe he was actually from Essos. The name of his wife Nissa Nissa does not really sound like a Westerosi Name.
Also there might be two fronts in the war against the Other, each corresponding to one extremity of the known world: Beyond the wall in the far North West and the Shadows near Asshai in the far South East.
Both places seems to have special properties that somehow enhances magic compared to other places, even more at the Wall as mentioned by Melissandre in her POV.
I also wonder what the Five Forts are for Definitely protecting the land from something (a type of Others?) coming from the Land of the Shrykes or further, whatever they might be.
lol that's funny because Stark is german for Strong
demosthenes
Member
lol that's funny because Stark is german for Strong
LOL
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
Oh, does she really? I must have missed that, oops.
Future PhaZe
Member
Finally finished the book.
Enjoyed it probably equally as much as Feast. Storm > Thrones > Clash > Feast = Dance
The tone of these books is changing rapidly due to the shift from Westeros as a focus. I think its a temporary necessity. The events will likely come off with a lot more energy in their show depictions and I suspect that Westeros will be the main focus in the second half of Book 6 and for the entirety of book 7.
I'm still not sure of what to make of the Jon Snow situation. After everything he's been through and given up Ramsays tauntings are what finally urge him to break his vow? It doesn't make sense.
In terms of Marsh and the nights watch's actions at the end of the book...are they so honor bound that they'll live with suicide? They can't possibly think that this won't bear a response from the wildlings, and they are heavily outnumbered.
It's clear that Jon will be revived by Melisandre at this point, but what choices they'll both make I'm not sure.
Absolutely hate the Connington/Aegon twist. Too much of a deus ex machina for me so I'm hoping that Aegon is just a pretender.
Enjoyed it probably equally as much as Feast. Storm > Thrones > Clash > Feast = Dance
The tone of these books is changing rapidly due to the shift from Westeros as a focus. I think its a temporary necessity. The events will likely come off with a lot more energy in their show depictions and I suspect that Westeros will be the main focus in the second half of Book 6 and for the entirety of book 7.
I'm still not sure of what to make of the Jon Snow situation. After everything he's been through and given up Ramsays tauntings are what finally urge him to break his vow? It doesn't make sense.
In terms of Marsh and the nights watch's actions at the end of the book...are they so honor bound that they'll live with suicide? They can't possibly think that this won't bear a response from the wildlings, and they are heavily outnumbered.
It's clear that Jon will be revived by Melisandre at this point, but what choices they'll both make I'm not sure.
Absolutely hate the Connington/Aegon twist. Too much of a deus ex machina for me so I'm hoping that Aegon is just a pretender.
You Know Nothing
Member
I think that's a given because of the "mummer's dragon" bit of Quaithe's prophecy. Dany also had a vision of a mummer's dragon in the House of the Undying. I mean, who else could it be referring to?
Future PhaZe
Member
I would think so, but would Connington be fooled so easily?
You Know Nothing
Member
Connington was infatuated with his "silver prince" Rhaegar. So I wouldn't put it past him to see what he wants to see. He would want to believe that some part of Rhaegar lived on and would feel a desire to protect it. Because of that, he most likely swallowed Varys' story whole.
This. Which is funny because obviously detest Varys and has expressed an desire to see him punished if Aegon ever gets the Iron Throne. Jon has no way of knowing if Varys actually smuggled the real Aegon out or not, and is willfully ignorant on the subject. While he may seem cunning, he really more proud and desperate and still infatuated by Rhaegar. Perfect tool for Varys,
PhoenixDark
Banned
I agree about Connington. Varys' tale saved him from a life of wandering drunkenness, it's the reason he still breathes.
On Jon's decision...I don't see it as breaking his vows. The Wall has no defenses to the south, therefore Ramsay's letter was an existential threat to the Watch. Jon could have turned himself in sure, but he would have no guarantee Ramsay wouldn't still destroy the Watch; does anyone think Ramsay would just be satisfied with executing Jon? The honorable thing to do was to attack the Boltons.
It would have been quite an interesting battle. The wildlings lack discipline could have potentially won with some type of ambush. Ramsay didn't know the Watch had let 5k wildlings through the Wall, so he just might have brought fewer men.
On Jon's decision...I don't see it as breaking his vows. The Wall has no defenses to the south, therefore Ramsay's letter was an existential threat to the Watch. Jon could have turned himself in sure, but he would have no guarantee Ramsay wouldn't still destroy the Watch; does anyone think Ramsay would just be satisfied with executing Jon? The honorable thing to do was to attack the Boltons.
It would have been quite an interesting battle. The wildlings lack discipline could have potentially won with some type of ambush. Ramsay didn't know the Watch had let 5k wildlings through the Wall, so he just might have brought fewer men.
Eh they don't actually swear an oath to self-preservation
Unless you want to take "I am the shield that guards the realms of men." as affirmative--that is to say they have a duty for self-preservation in so far as fulfilling their role as the shield requires them to be alive.
I dunno the Night's Watch has kind of a strict constructionist constitutional crisis on their hands pretty much constantly. Jon's trying to take up the spirit of the Watch as some kind of benevolent third party of Westeros. He's taking no glory/crowns/lands for himself or any of his men personally, but he's definitely interfering with the affairs of the realm.
"I shall live and die at my post." should really preclude you from riding off to fight the Boltons. You can't go putting your life at risk, you die in service of The Watch or not at all. You don't get to suspend your membership, that's called desertion.
Again, unless you want to take the bit about guarding the realms of men as applying to protecting the realm from threats south of the Wall as well as north of it.
Ultimately, their shit's kind of a mess and the order is being tested in ways unprecedented or long-since forgotten so Jon's kind of in unchartered waters trying to lead them. Seems like stabbing a fool mightn't have been the most empathetic way to address that though.
PhoenixDark
Banned
So if a Lannister army sent a letter saying they'd be there soon to execute the entire Watch for supporting Stannis...the Watch is supposed to lay down their weapons and do nothing? I don't think it works like that.
The NW protects the realm. Therefore a threat to them would be considered a threat to the realm. With that in mind, attacking the Boltons was perfectly legal in my eyes.
The NW protects the realm. Therefore a threat to them would be considered a threat to the realm. With that in mind, attacking the Boltons was perfectly legal in my eyes.
I'm saying it's sort of undefined. Protecting the realms of men obviously entails standing against Things That Are Not Men. They don't protect Westeros, but the "realms of men". That's generally been taken by them to mean not interfering in the business of the realm; they haven't ever claimed authority to protect Westeros from itself.
Like, I'm on Jon's team duh. But other people not is sort of understandable. As far as anyone knows at this point, Bolton only presents an existential risk to the Watch because of Jon anyway. If he turned himself over to Bolton that whole scenario is possibly averted.
Like, I'm on Jon's team duh. But other people not is sort of understandable. As far as anyone knows at this point, Bolton only presents an existential risk to the Watch because of Jon anyway. If he turned himself over to Bolton that whole scenario is possibly averted.
Yeah, by that logic any random lord with enough men to take on the Watch can now unilaterally end the Watch at any time. Plus, Ramsay's demands were a total catch-22 for Jon; the only way for him to have peace with Ramsay is to seize Selyse and Shireen to surrender them to the Boltons. Arresting the relatives of rebel leaders seems pretty far outside of the Watch's jurisdiction. There was no option available that didn't entangle him with the South in one way or another.
PhoenixDark
Banned
True, I think an argument could be made that Jon could have given himself up to protect the realm. I also believe it wouldn't be hard for Jon to argue that Ramsay had no intention of leaving the Watch alone regardless, and thus in order to protect themselves (and thus the realm) they had to defend themselves.
I also agree Marsh's views also had merit. He clearly thought Jon was destroying the Watch by allowing the wildlings through, so the Ramsay plot was essentially a final straw. I think Jon did a very poor job of explaining his reasoning, and an even worse job of surrounding himself with supporters. He literally sent all his trusted men away. I understand having to send Iron Emmet and others away - they were leaders, and were needed elsewhere on the Wall. But having Grenn and Pyp with him would have helped him keep in touch with what his men were saying behind his back.
I also agree Marsh's views also had merit. He clearly thought Jon was destroying the Watch by allowing the wildlings through, so the Ramsay plot was essentially a final straw. I think Jon did a very poor job of explaining his reasoning, and an even worse job of surrounding himself with supporters. He literally sent all his trusted men away. I understand having to send Iron Emmet and others away - they were leaders, and were needed elsewhere on the Wall. But having Grenn and Pyp with him would have helped him keep in touch with what his men were saying behind his back.
That's the real issue with Jon. He's all policy and no politics. Pretty much every major choice he made was a good one, but he's completely oblivious to the fact that he has to sell those ideas to skeptics. He sends away everyone who could defend him and pretty much refuses to explain himself to anyone else. He seems almost like he views the fact that people are unhappy with him as a good thing, like that's the surest sign that he's doing his job and making those hard choices, instead of as a problem that needs to be addressed.
CornBurrito
Member
More than just the wildlings, I think Marsh and the others thought Jon went a bit too far in his aid to Stannis. Which actually is true.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
I wish Ygritte was still alive. *sigh*
She's gone to the Land of the Eternal Lord's Kiss~
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
;____;
Her death scene is the most well-written scene in the entire series IMO. So hauntingly beautiful and tragic.
There's still no kind of anthology or collection right? I'm champing at the bit for those but for no good reason really need them all together.
CornBurrito
Member
You know nothing.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
I love how the other characters (like Val and Melisandre) start saying that to Jon.
"Shut the fuck up Jon. YOU KNOW NOTHINGGGGG."
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