squicken said:I think the Brothers forged the letter from the captain guy about the troubles at Hardhome. He's illiterate, and so the maester writes all his letters. Not too far a stretch that the maester could be in league with Marsh and Thorne.
Something I'm curious about is why Jon couldn't defend himself when getting stabbed. He successfully parried the first cut, but when he tried to grab his sword, he had trouble getting his hand to grab it.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:There are some theories that Melisandre wrote the letter. That she realized that Jon was Azor Ahai and forced him to do something like that, but I don't buy that.
He doesn't necessarily have to be resurrected to come back. Heck, there's no confirmation that he's even dead.Azrael said:I think Jon will return in the next book but I will be absolutely disgusted if he does. If GRRM resurrects him it will be the jump the shark moment for the series.
GRRM doesn't leave this kinda shit at cliffhangers often. If someone is dead, it'll say he's dead. If Jon was dead we'd probably get Melisandre talking about it since that's about the only other PoV at the wall.Azrael said:Mance Rayder proves that Melisandre uses deception to further her ends, as readers suspected for years was the case with the ritual with the leeches. I think she sent the letter to Jon to convince him to trust her. The letter was literally a self-fulfilling prophecy. She expected Jon to come running to her to heed her counsel, to abandon the mission to Hardhome and do whatever it is Mel thought he should do. She did not expect him to go to his men first and read the letter to them.
I think Jon will return in the next book but I will be absolutely disgusted if he does. If GRRM resurrects him it will be the jump the shark moment for the series.
Azrael said:Mance Rayder proves that Melisandre uses deception to further her ends, as readers suspected for years was the case with the ritual with the leeches. I think she sent the letter to Jon to convince him to trust her. The letter was literally a self-fulfilling prophecy. She expected Jon to come running to her to heed her counsel, to abandon the mission to Hardhome and do whatever it is Mel thought he should do. She did not expect him to go to his men first and read the letter to them.
I think Jon will return in the next book but I will be absolutely disgusted if he does. If GRRM resurrects him it will be the jump the shark moment for the series.
I think the "betrayal for love" will come about when Jorah finally meets up with Dany, and is spurned when he discovers Daario and Dany have basically been diddling like rabbitsbengraven said:Going back to her betrayels, I wonder if Dany's betrayel for love might be Daario?
I mean, that he actually loves her is up for debate and few of us think he actually cares about anything but power and sex, but what if he actually does love her and will betray her because she married someone else and he's hurt?
duckroll said:Btw, where could Rickon be? Considering the need for Davos, the fact that the location can be easily marked on a map, and how awful it's supposed to be... could he have been taken to Skargos?
Oh please, at this point Dany would be lucky to get by with even one dragon. Victarion is coming with his dragon binder horn and Drogon was scoping out Aegon all the way back in the Tyrion boat chapters with Griff.Puddles said:I've been thinking a lot about this. Here's the conclusion I came to.
The conflict in Westeros will be over pretty quickly once Dany lands with dragons.
Jenga said:Oh please, at this point Dany would be lucky to get by with even one dragon. Victarion is coming with his dragon binder horn and Drogon was scoping out Aegon all the way back in the Tyrion boat chapters with Griff.
Lirlond said:I thought Osha was taking him to the marshes? Wouldn't surprise me is she took him to Skagos though, but I distinctly remember her and Rickon heading south down the kingsroad whereas Bran/Jojeen/Meera all headed north.
Jenga said:Oh please, at this point Dany would be lucky to get by with even one dragon. Victarion is coming with his dragon binder horn and Drogon was scoping out Aegon all the way back in the Tyrion boat chapters with Griff.
Don't forget Melisandre's stone dragon.
Another thing, that one prophecy Dany got basically confirmed she'll run into Victarion, Jon Connington, Tyrion, and a bunch of others soon.
Jenga said:Fairly certain it was Ramsay who sent the letter. Who else knew that Theon was heading north with Jeyne? Who else knew that he has some sort of inane insecurity for bastards? Melisandre isn't that great with her visions.
duckroll said:Btw, I just thought of something regarding the situation in Winterfell. Kastark was supposed to betray Stannis. But Jon sent word to Deepwood by raven about the betrayal. If it arrived before the Braavosi banker reached Deepwood, then when he brings Theon and Jeyne to Stannis, his party would also be bringing word of that betrayal.
It doesn't seem likely that Stannis has actually fallen at Winterfell, or that Ramsey really has all he claims, but I do think the letter itself came from Ramsey. It's certainly a ploy to get Jon to leave the wall, but to what ends... remains to be seen I guess.
duckroll said:Btw, I just thought of something regarding the situation in Winterfell. Kastark was supposed to betray Stannis. But Jon sent word to Deepwood by raven about the betrayal. If it arrived before the Braavosi banker reached Deepwood, then when he brings Theon and Jeyne to Stannis, his party would also be bringing word of that betrayal.
It doesn't seem likely that Stannis has actually fallen at Winterfell, or that Ramsey really has all he claims, but I do think the letter itself came from Ramsey. It's certainly a ploy to get Jon to leave the wall, but to what ends... remains to be seen I guess.
Gonaria said:If it is from Ramsey, its probably just to goad him to come south so that he can capture and flay him. As for Rickon, I sure hope he and Osha went to greywater watch. I really don't have a whole lot of interet in seeing Skagos and would much much much rather finally see whats up with Howland Reed
duckroll said:Howland Reed will never be seen in the series until the epilogue of the final book. On his deathbed he starts to think back to the Tower of Joy. Just it seems like we will learn anything about the event, his heart gives out and his last thoughts are of how much of a waste it is that no one will never know the truth.
tino said:But the marking the winner of the iron throne is not ultimate plot of the series, the battle between the Others and Men/Children of Forest is. Even secrets of Lyanna/Ashara are more important than the iron throne.
There is no way this series can end in 2 books.
Azrael said:Mance Rayder proves that Melisandre uses deception to further her ends, as readers suspected for years was the case with the ritual with the leeches. I think she sent the letter to Jon to convince him to trust her. The letter was literally a self-fulfilling prophecy. She expected Jon to come running to her to heed her counsel, to abandon the mission to Hardhome and do whatever it is Mel thought he should do. She did not expect him to go to his men first and read the letter to them.
I think Jon will return in the next book but I will be absolutely disgusted if he does. If GRRM resurrects him it will be the jump the shark moment for the series.
He let me down with Brienne and Mereen chapters.ZephyrFate said:And when it does, everyone will eat crow.
I have faith Martin can pull it off. He hasn't let me down yet.
Eteric Rice said:Does anyone think that Jon dying, even temporarily, relieves him of his oath to the watch? I'm pretty sure Melis is going to revive him, but if he dies, even for a time, wouldn't his watch technically be done?
Would be a hell of a loop hole in that contract. Lol.
Gonaria said:I really don't have a whole lot of interet in seeing Skagos and would much much much rather finally see whats up with Howland Reed
That's your problem. Brienne's chapters were awesome (worldbuilding) and Meereen's were great (political catch-22s everywhere).tino said:He let me down with Brienne and Mereen chapters.
ZephyrFate said:That's your problem. Brienne's chapters were awesome (worldbuilding) and Meereen's were great (political catch-22s everywhere).
The funny part is that that's not even true. There are a lot of people who like Brienne's chapters, and people are realizing that there's cool stuff in the Meereen chapters as well.yacobod said:Opinions are funny things, but you seem to be in the minority that think Brienne POVs and Dany's royal fuckup of Mereen were awesome.
And the best part of GURM's solution to the Mereneese knot wasn't even a solution. It's like he made a bigger knot of it trying to untangle the mess he made.
ZephyrFate said:That's your problem. Brienne's chapters were awesome (worldbuilding) and Meereen's were great (political catch-22s everywhere).
I don't understand why readers just couldn't accept that Brienne, as a character, isn't the smartest tool in the shed and that she's basically walking dramatic irony (we knew she was going the wrong way). What she does provide is a travelogue of Westeros that populates the ground level with common folk, a perspective we literally NEVER see in the novels.Tacitus_ said:Knowing that she was pretty much on a fools quest sapped my enjoyment of Brienne's chapters. Dorne / Iron Islands (other than Damphair) chapters were enjoyably to me since there was actually something happening in the world.
It's valid. You (and I) just disagree with it. Knowing that Brienne is doomed to fail before ever setting off on her journey lessens the impact of the chapters for Tacitus_. We think the worldbuilding trumps that. Nothing wrong with either point of view.ZephyrFate said:Now see I don't see this as a valid complaint.
ZephyrFate said:I don't understand why readers just couldn't accept that Brienne, as a character, isn't the smartest tool in the shed and that she's basically walking dramatic irony (we knew she was going the wrong way). What she does provide is a travelogue of Westeros that populates the ground level with common folk, a perspective we literally NEVER see in the novels.
I think it sets up a hilarious scene in the next book with Jaime getting fucked over by Catelynflyover said:It's valid. You (and I) just disagree with it. Knowing that Brienne is doomed to fail before ever setting off on her journey lessens the impact of the chapters for Tacitus_. We think the worldbuilding trumps that. Nothing wrong with either point of view.
ZephyrFate said:I think it sets up a hilarious scene in the next book with Jaime getting fucked over by Catelyn
Yeah, it wasn't necessarily fun to read his chapters, but they were also my favorite parts of the book.CrunchyB said:Reek
The highpoint of the book is the absolute lowest point in Theon's life.
Patchface scares me, too.CrunchyB said:Patchface scares Melisandre?
This had to be the most annoying part of the whole situation there. The very first chapter had Dany and all discussing how to solve these problems. In open combat, they would crush them, but as long as they played shadow games. The Unsuilled were useless and most under he command had no experience with it. All while Dany flounder around about what she wanted to do.CrunchyB said:Tyrion in particular was wasted. It was painful how he remarked that poisoning the wells would kill off the siege within weeks. He probably would have made short work of the Meereenese schemers as well. Dany needed him badly, but he was busy jousting.
If GRRM cut out the Penny character entirely and use the space to write how Tyrion plot out a scheme to turn Second Son's cloak again to the Meereen side it would be awesome.yacobod said:Opinions are funny things, but you seem to be in the minority that think Brienne POVs and Dany's royal fuckup of Mereen were awesome.
And the best part of GURM's solution to the Mereneese knot wasn't even a solution. It's like he made a bigger knot of it trying to untangle the mess he made.
flyover said:Patchface scares me, too.
yacobod said:It was pretty funny that Strong Belwas ate all the poisoned locusts at the re-opening of the fighting pits.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:Ha, didn't think of that. I'm glad he lived. Him and Barristan (and Brown Ben Plumm) are the only interesting characters in Dany's storyline. Well, the Unsullied are kind of cool too.
Yeah but to be fair anyone could have been the Harpy, EVERYONE wanted to either kill her or fuck her and then kill her, everyone has a knife at her throat. I don't blame her.yacobod said:Or Dany being so oblivious to the fact that Hizdahr Loraq or the Green Grace was the fucking Harpy. So she marries him.
It was pretty funny that Strong Belwas ate all the poisoned locusts at the re-opening of the fighting pits.
Coldsnap said:Library just demanded back my copy of Game of Thrones since It was over due and people were on a waiting list. What sucks is I was just getting into it because classes ended. How is the kindle verison?
Coldsnap said:Library just demanded back my copy of Game of Thrones since It was over due and people were on a waiting list. What sucks is I was just getting into it because classes ended. How is the kindle verison?