Kindle version is good. But, yeah, you are in the unmarked spoilers thread. Beware! I mean, I guess you can just skip the books and stick around here to see what happens.Coldsnap said:Library just demanded back my copy of Game of Thrones since It was over due and people were on a waiting list. What sucks is I was just getting into it because classes ended. How is the kindle verison?
Did they ever elaborate just how much control melisandre had over mance?squicken said:Mance knew from Jon's time as a wilding. And Melly has control of Mance. Mance has been observing Ramsay for weeks as Abel, and could easily ape his tone in a letter. Or things have gone to hell at Winterfell and Mance has Ramsay as a captive.
I think Roose is a just a northern and slightly more harsher version of Tywin. Which, of course, is harsh as fuck, but he did say his own personal manner of rule is peace for his people.yacobod said:I think Roose is actually more similar to Tywin Lannister, a pragmatist of sorts. He would be more like lawful evil. He's a much more interesting villain than his bastard son. Ramsey on the other-hand would be chaotic evil. He's a complete psychopath. Ramsay is the vehicle and wish fulfillment of GURM's pedo rape torture fantasies.
flyover said:Patchface scares me, too.
jett said:So what's going on with Bran, is he going to become king of the big bad? And Coldhands is totally Benjen Stark, isn't he.
Coldhands is some kind of dead wight, I don't think revealing that he was Bran's zombie uncle would have removed the wariness and suspiciousness.yacobod said:I don't think Coldhands is Benjen Stark. If Coldhands was Benjen Stark, why would he conceal his identity to Bran? Bran & Co. were suspicious and wary of him, he could of eased their suspicions by revealing himself to be Bran's uncle.
well we did see some seven action in davostino said:The "Seven" is useless and even the drawn god works once in a while.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:I'd say it's the opposite. If he does die, it'll be the jump shark moment.
Mel has a vision of a man turning into a wolf and then back into a man again. I'm guessing Jon lives on in Ghost until Mel revives his body and he moves back.Azrael said:I think the prologue is there to tell us that Jon Snow is dead, but his spirit remains in Ghost. How a direwolf could be Azor Ahai I have no idea, but that's my belief. I'd guess in The Winds of Winter Ghost/Jon will be haunting Winterfell and slaughtering Ramsay's girls one by one.
Bran had the perfect number of chapters. I even would have preferred a few more, even if he's just glimpsing the past of Westeros through the Weirwoods. But I agree that you could have cut Tyrion's and Jon's chapters in half, threw out Quentyn's POVs, cut the Iron Islands POVs except for Asha and you could have easily cut the two books down to one.Ænima said:I really believe that Dance and Feast could have functioned as one book. There isn't a major character who's chapters could not have been cut in half.
I'm inclined to agree with you but the whole talk about Bran flying could be metaphorical as in he will be mastering his third eye and "fly" beyond the confines of his physical body.yacobod said:I don't think Coldhands is Benjen Stark. If Coldhands was Benjen Stark, why would he conceal his identity to Bran? Bran & Co. were suspicious and wary of him, he could of eased their suspicions by revealing himself to be Bran's uncle.
and I don't think Bloodraven or Bran's future is evil. He's going to become an all seeing eye that may be able to warg and influence situations. I still think Bran might end up warging into one of the 3 remaining dragons. Bloodraven/the 3 eyed crow said he was going to fly afterall, and warging into a raven or hawk seems anticlimactic to that prophecy/dream.
Azrael said:I revise what I said in my previous post, which I wrote immediately after reading the last Jon chapter and not having time to fully absorb it. I think if you read the book carefully it's clear what actually happened to Jon.
The big one is the prologue. When I first read the prologue, I thought it was a well-written and exciting chapter, but superfluous. All of the previous prologue chapters have had some significance. In AGoT it introduced the Others, ACoK Stannis' court and the return of magic to the world the birth of dragons heralded, in ASoS the Others and Night's Watch finally meet in battle, and AFfC ties in with the final Sam chapter. But the Varamyr chapter on the face of it didn't really tell us anything we didn't already know.
I think the prologue is there to tell us that Jon Snow is dead, but his spirit remains in Ghost. How a direwolf could be Azor Ahai I have no idea, but that's my belief. I'd guess in The Winds of Winter Ghost/Jon will be haunting Winterfell and slaughtering Ramsay's girls one by one.
suzu said:Connington is totally gay for Rhaegar.
Jenga said:well we did see some seven action in davos
On the blackwater?tino said:Really? Where?
Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:I'm figuring Jon won't be back until the very end the next book after a journey by Mel, Tormund, Val, Wun Wun and Jon/Ghost.
yacobod said:I don't see why they couldn't bring back Jon asap. He was killed at or near Castle Black, Melisandre was seen leaving that hall where he was giving the speech concerning Bolton at Winterfell. Ghost is nearby to warg into if need be, and he's surrounded by freemen allies. If GURM makes us slough through 800-900 pages before a Jon reveal in AWOW I'm going to be pissed.
Just like he'd never spend the entire length of adwd and not get us any closer to resolving mereen....yacobod said:I don't see why they couldn't bring back Jon asap. He was killed at or near Castle Black, Melisandre was seen leaving that hall where he was giving the speech concerning Bolton at Winterfell. Ghost is nearby to warg into if need be, and he's surrounded by freemen allies. If GURM makes us slough through 800-900 pages before a Jon reveal in AWOW I'm going to be pissed.
Basileus777 said:Mel has a vision of a man turning into a wolf and then back into a man again. I'm guessing Jon lives on in Ghost until Mel revives his body and he moves back.
Gonaria said:his body be going in the freezer. No other reason to mention that damn freezer so much
Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:Also kind of goes with the blue flower or whatever growing from a chink in the Wall from one of Dany's visions.
Gonaria said:His feces and bodily fluids are going to sprout blue flowers on the wall?
Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:Isn't that what usually happens when you put a body on ice?
How many chapter do you think will book 6 spend in Mereen? Tyrion hasn't even turn The Second Son to the Mereen side yet.ZephyrFate said:Are people really so bitter as to think TWOW won't have a lot of plot movement? Yeesh.
5 years agoZephyrFate said:Are people really so bitter as to think TWOW won't have a lot of plot movement? Yeesh.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:I feel (hope) that TWOW will start moving things along again. I also feel (hope) he has things planned out better and will write the book at a more timely pace. You can all proceed to laugh now.
Gonaria said:I agree with you. I think shit is going to go down soon in Westeros. Meereen will take a little longer, she will meet up with all of those peeps, have some actual interesting conversations with people, and then finally make her way over to Westeros when its a total shit fest ruin and then stuff will happen.
I knew ADWD was Feast Part 2 and thus did not expect much more plot movement.elrechazao said:5 years ago
"Are people really so bitter (about affc) as to think ADWD won't have a lot of plot movement? Yeesh."
Yet some of the plot points moved. Seems like retconning expectations to me rather than judging the book on its merits as a fifth of 7 in a series.ZephyrFate said:I knew ADWD was Feast Part 2 and thus did not expect much more plot movement.
Some of them moved, but it's not retconning anything when we knew these were two halves of one book. I didn't expect anything to radically change because the tone of both books is similar. And the fact that they occur at the same time makes ADWD more ASOIAF 4.5 and less ASOIAF 5.elrechazao said:Yet some of the plot points moved. Seems like retconning expectations to me rather than judging the book on its merits as a fifth of 7 in a series.
you honestly didn't expect any further plot progression for dany from mereen?ZephyrFate said:Some of them moved, but it's not retconning anything when we knew these were two halves of one book. I didn't expect anything to radically change because the tone of both books is similar. And the fact that they occur at the same time makes ADWD more ASOIAF 4.5 and less ASOIAF 5.
elrechazao said:Yet some of the plot points moved. Seems like retconning expectations to me rather than judging the book on its merits as a fifth of 7 in a series.
We got plot progression from her... it was just in the same city for awhile.elrechazao said:you honestly didn't expect any further plot progression for dany from mereen?
I've finished the book today and read over the thread, so here are my own thoughts on it.
Jon: For me, this is indisputably the best storyline in the book. It all seemed so hopeless at first, but Jon somehow swelled the watches numbers up to the thousands (even if fewer people actually joined the watch, they worked for them, which is good enough), rehabilitated the castles, found the funds to gain enough food for the winter. Yet all the while, his men grew more and more unhappy with him, and it ended in that shocking turn. (The Varamyr thing didn't tip me off. All I thought was that Jon would embrace his warg powers more ). I doubt that he is actually, fully dead, but we'll see. All the same, the end seriously depressed me. I had a hard time concentrating on the last few chapters because of this. Brilliant story arc.
Dany: I read most of the thread over before I decided to write this, but it shocks me how many people missed the point of the the story. "HURRR, THIS IS OUT OF CHARACTER, WHY DOESN'T SHE JUST BURN THE CITY TO THE GROUND" Yeah...does anyone else remember what happened to her at the end of ASOS? She just got news that her efforts for peace in Astapor and Yunkai, she realized that conquering a city and ruling it were two entirely different things. And that's the point, she didn't simply want to be a destroyer, someone who comes in fucks everything up. That's why she doesn't simply go and burn shit up with her dragons, because that's not why she's lingering in Meereen.
This is also why so much backstory on Essoss was necessary. As a diplomat, she needed to understand their customs and reach a compromise that would allow her people to live happily without destroying Meereen's economy and culture. In the end, it turns out to be fruitless. She fails and now realizees that she can only be a tool of destruction. I wonder if she even wants to rule Westeros anymore, with how she's sure she'll be inept in doing so. This is the way in which she grew, and anyone who says her chapters were meandering and filler or is filled with useless backstory on the Meereen is missing the point.
That said, while the people who are crying out that this was background filler or out of character are out of their minds, I understand the notion of people who simply find these boring. I didn't think they were bad, but they weren't on the level of the politics of the Red Keep. I think this is mainly an issue with familiarity. These were strange names with weird customs and we are all more concerned about whats happening at Westeros, because that's where the important stuff is. Like GRRM mentioned, Westeros is the star of the show and other lands are only important in so far as to reflect that. In this case, they are important as they are developing Dany's character and who she will be in Westeros once she gets there, and we know this, so the meereen chapters just feel like a drag. On top of this, we were given the impression that many storylines would all converge on Dany, which didn't happen, so many were a bit disappointed. Personally, I believe that when I reread this book, with the greater sense of who is who and what is what, I will enjoy these chapters far more.
Quentyn and Barristan: These 2, once Dany got on her dragon and left, were there to finish the story of Meereen. Quentyn was there because he wanted to get the dragons, and while that may have ended in failure, it wasn't meaningless as people have talked about as he did release Rhaegal and Viserion. And the fact that he burned for it is probably going to hurt relations between Aegon and Dorne. His journey failed, but that hardly means it was meaningless. Barristan's story though....I suppose the jury's still out on that one. Dany's time in Meereen is done, or is about to be. As such, there is little point in his power play at the end there, but this strange alliance with Dorne may prove to be useful. It's like his last few chapters were Dany's own epilogues. But I feel, for the most part, it was set up.
Tyrion:His chapters were probably the most disappointing of the lot. Well written, to be sure, but I wanted to see him talk to Dany, to ride dragons. You going with Griff and the boys, LOL NOPE. Your actually going with Jorah Mormont EXCEPT NOT, YOUR GONNA BE SENT THERE AS A SLAVE LMAO
grrmtroll.jpg
Like Dany, his story is hardly wasted space. He needed something to kick him out his depressed stupor and get back on his feet to accomplish something. It's a shame that something is with the Second Son's, and by the time he gets Casterly Rock, everyone will have probably used up the gold anyway. I don't foresee a happy ending for our favorite little midget. Progress was made and it will be good to see where his story leads him.
However, I didn't enjoy his chapters as much as I should have, because I dislike characters with no real freedom. It's the same problem I had with Davos of ACOK, he was just there to do as he was told. Here, Tyrion is first at the mercy of Illyrio, then gets companionship with Griff's crew, then is captive by Jorah, then by the slavers. It's only at the end where he gets his freedom back and promises to get back into the game of thrones.
Theon: ...shit. I have to say that these were some of the most harrowing chapters I've ever read. Just holy shit levels of horror. Really well written stuff. And his struggle to return to the character he was was great. No complaints here.
Bran & Arya & Davos & Victarion & Cersei & Jaime : Their chapters were all absolutely fantastic, but why so few? While Bran, I can understand somewhat, he needs to fit into the timeline correctly while not revealing too much about his powers, I don't understand why Arya's 2 chapters couldn't be in a Feast For Crows. And Davos' didn't really lead anywhere either, which I find silly. i can't see why Cersei's and Jaime's chapters could not have been in the first few chapters of Winds of Winter. Also, why is Victarion a better guy than Euron again? There's just way too few of them, and while they're great, they don't add much to the overall story.
Asha: Her's weren't too bad, but I don't know if they were particularly remarkable in any way either. They were a window to show us what stannis was doing, basically, which is fine, because...shit is fucked up in the North, goddamn.
Overall thoughts: Even though I can't really fault any of it, right now it leaves somewhat of a disappointed taste in my mouth. Perhaps, like Feast, I had expected too much of a rush, like ASoS was. Which is fine, all that means is that I will enjoy it all the more when I reread it a year down the line or so. It had some truly great moments, and Jon's storyline was fucking awesome. But it feels fragmented, particularly in the case of the characters who only got a few chapters to their name. To make them fully awesome, they need to have full, complete storylines, not just these bits and pieces.
If this doesn't happen I'll be surprisedtino said:What kind of plot twist do you guys think GRRM has in store for the last 2/3 books? I don't mean the R+L kind you can see a mile away, I mean the Red Wedding, Joffre Wedding kind of major reversal of plot directions.
I will start:
* Aegon's saleswords will be able to win him the Iron Throne, but just before he is crowned, Little Finger will steal the throne from under him.
* Prince Aegon turns out to be a false king and true son of Illyrio
* Dany will gather her armies and major characters in Mereen, but she will not be able to bring her Unsullied army and Khalasha army to westeros. By the time she reach Westeros, she most like will only has her dragons and Tyrion. Why? This is just the way GRRM writes.
* The wall will fall
Retro said:Pretty sure Sam has the Horn of Joramun, the one Jon found at the Fist. Not confirmed but it definitely makes sense.
Very true. And as much as I love Feast/Dance, Storm is pretty much the best fucking fantasy book ever written. I don't know if it'll ever reach those levels again, but I expect the conclusion to have us reeling.Puddles said:Thinking about it more, I'm pretty sure a lot of people are disappointed because nobody expected a "calm before the storm" that would take up two books - two of the middle books in the series no less.
Game of Thrones started off a little slow, but quickly put some big pieces in play. By the end of the book you were certain that a truly epic struggle for the ages was about to unfold. Clash and Storm kept building this up - sure, Dany didn't cross the ocean to join the fray, but the action in Westeros only got more intense.
Then Feast happened. A quarter of the book is Brienne running around Westeros on a fruitless mission, another quarter is Sam traveling south with an old man and a chick who won't stop crying, and most of the other half is Cersei losing her shit.
People said "Oh, that's alright, it's only to be expected. The first three books were all about building up the War of the Five Kings. Now that that's over, this is the book that sets up all the pieces for the next huge series of events. Dance will finish getting those set up and then unleash the fury; just wait, it's gonna be awesome."
Then Dance came, and the entire book was about setting up pieces that still aren't in place yet.
I think people were hoping for at least 2 1/2 books of unrestrained, ferocious awesomeness. Instead, we'll be lucky to get 1 1/2 if this series stays at seven books. There's a very real possibility that this series may NEVER reach the frenetic level of action of Storm again, and I think a lot of fans were hoping that most of Dance and all of Winds and Dream would be at that level.