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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

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bengraven said:
"I said I'd never take advice from fans, but my God these are long books and this pizza won't eat itself. I need help where I can get it."




In all seriousness though, I'm pretty worried about the "bittersweet ending". I mean, he mentions LOTR and with Frodo's wound and going off to the undying lands and the Scouring of the shire...other than Frodo going off, nothing was that bitter sweet. The scouring was nothing. It actually was the first chance the hobbits had to fight on their own and they won and they later cleaned up the shire and became heroes in their own right.

But I know Martin is going to murder nearly everyone major. The bloody score at the end of book 7 of HP was nothing compared to what he's going to do.

LOTR was hugely bittersweet. The elves spent their last power to help destroy the One ring and in doing so destroyed the last thing holding their highest civilization and independent kingdoms in place. Everything that isn't man fades into myth after the final victory, hobbits, dwarves, elves, wizards, ents, wild-men all become shades and fantasy stories. The western kingdoms of men re-emerge, but compare their current world with what might have been possible if different decisions were made during all of Arda's long history. They're victory might be that they are alive but can never reach what was possible during Illuvatar's song of creation.
 
bengraven said:
"I said I'd never take advice from fans, but my God these are long books and this pizza won't eat itself. I need help where I can get it."




In all seriousness though, I'm pretty worried about the "bittersweet ending". I mean, he mentions LOTR and with Frodo's wound and going off to the undying lands and the Scouring of the shire...other than Frodo going off, nothing was that bitter sweet. The scouring was nothing. It actually was the first chance the hobbits had to fight on their own and they won and they later cleaned up the shire and became heroes in their own right.

But I know Martin is going to murder nearly everyone major. The bloody score at the end of book 7 of HP was nothing compared to what he's going to do.

Yeah there will few left standing. I'm positive Arya's going to die. Either Jon or Dany will die, assuming the 99% chance that Jon is still alive. Tyrion will get a somewhat happy ending though, he's suffered enough. Jaime and Cersei will die and so will poor Tommen and Myrcella. Jorah's definitely fucked. Sansa will live, and Bran will live as a face in a tree. I could go on, but yeah most everyone will die.
 

Piecake

Member
bengraven said:
"I said I'd never take advice from fans, but my God these are long books and this pizza won't eat itself. I need help where I can get it."




In all seriousness though, I'm pretty worried about the "bittersweet ending". I mean, he mentions LOTR and with Frodo's wound and going off to the undying lands and the Scouring of the shire...other than Frodo going off, nothing was that bitter sweet. The scouring was nothing. It actually was the first chance the hobbits had to fight on their own and they won and they later cleaned up the shire and became heroes in their own right.

But I know Martin is going to murder nearly everyone major. The bloody score at the end of book 7 of HP was nothing compared to what he's going to do.

The Long Price Quartet's ending was bittersweet. If he can end it with evoking similar emotions I'd be thrilled
 
I'd be disappointed if Bran remains a tree. I had hoped he'd become a badass druid or some shit, show up on the wall with a giant bag of dragonglass and start wrecking Others left and right :(
 

Piecake

Member
PhoenixDark said:
I'd be disappointed if Bran remains a tree. I had hoped he'd become a badass druid or some shit, show up on the wall with a giant bag of dragonglass and start wrecking Others left and right :(

Oh, He'll do that. He'll just be in the body of a gigantic polar bear
 

tokkun

Member
bengraven said:
But I know Martin is going to murder nearly everyone major. The bloody score at the end of book 7 of HP was nothing compared to what he's going to do.

I don't know. He likes to play up the "no one is safe" stuff, but when it comes to major characters we get a lot more death fakeouts than actual deaths. How many POV characters who have had POVs in more than one book have died? The only one who comes to mind is Catelyn, and she didn't even stay dead.

On the other hand, he has 'fake killed' the POVs: Arya, Asha, Theon, Davos, Dany, Tyrion, (probably) Brienne, (probably) Jon.

We will have to wait and see if Stannis is really dead (I'm predicting that will be fake). If so, the most established character to die in ADWD was Pycelle.
 
tokkun said:
I don't know. He likes to play up the "no one is safe" stuff, but when it comes to major characters we get a lot more death fakeouts than actual deaths. How many POV characters who have had POVs in more than one book have died? The only one who comes to mind is Catelyn, and she didn't even stay dead.

On the other hand, he has 'fake killed' the POVs: Arya, Asha, Theon, Davos, Dany, Tyrion, (probably) Brienne, (probably) Jon.

We will have to wait and see if Stannis is really dead (I'm predicting that will be fake). If so, the most established character to die in ADWD was Pycelle.

He's mentioned more than once that if he wrote LOTR he would have left Gandalf dead, but his own series suggests otherwise. Death has almost been meaningless since ASOS
 

Veelk

Banned
velvet_nitemare said:
The phrase used the most in the book has to be "Reek. Reek, it rhymes with ...ek"

Someone should count.
20 times.

In a 1000~ page book, I actually find it odd that it felt so repetitive.
 
Sorry if this is a nub question but should I know who Vary's serves at this point? That epilogue just confused me even more. I've read all 5 books in a row so some things are running together for me at this point.
 

Thai

Bane was better.
Generic said:
20 times.

In a 1000~ page book, I actually find it odd that it felt so repetitive.



using kindle search:

"words are wind" 13 times
"much and more" 30 times

what else do you guys want to count? I've seen "many and more" and "little and less" a few times too.
 

Thai

Bane was better.
Harry Potter said:
Sorry if this is a nub question but should I know who Vary's serves at this point? That epilogue just confused me even more. I've read all 5 books in a row so some things are running together for me at this point.


"at this point" twice.
 

Piecake

Member
Harry Potter said:
Sorry if this is a nub question but should I know who Vary's serves at this point? That epilogue just confused me even more. I've read all 5 books in a row so some things are running together for me at this point.

he wants Dany and/or Aegon in Westeros with an army messing shit up. Why does he want that? Well, I am not totally sure, but id guess he wants one or both on the throne, as to that reason why, who knows
 

duckroll

Member
Thai said:
using kindle search:

"words are wind" 13 times
"much and more" 30 times

what else do you guys want to count? I've seen "many and more" and "little and less" a few times too.

How about "He was not wrong"?
 
Gonaria said:
he wants Dany and/or Aegon in Westeros with an army messing shit up. Why does he want that? Well, I am not totally sure, but id guess he wants one or both on the throne, as to that reason why, who knows
Thanks
 

Veelk

Banned
Thai said:
Serious? weird that we get different results. I'm using the kindle...you?
It was worded differently at times. "Selhorys may be where whores go." "He did not know where whores go" "Where ever you find whores. Is that what father meant? IS that where whores go?"

Search for the words "where whores go" and you should get the same result.


duckroll said:
How about "He was not wrong"?
14


Thai said:
"was/are/is/were not wrong" combined give me 29.


But he throws in some "not all wrong", "not so wrong", "had not been wrong"s in there that I didnt count.


When I searched, it gave me a bunch of answers that didn't even include 'He's not wrong", like "This is where you're wrong" and "He had smiled at the wrong man." You should go through and count the "He's not wrong" and variants.
 

Thai

Bane was better.
duckroll said:
How about "He was not wrong"?


"was/are/is/were not wrong" combined give me 29.


But he throws in some "not all wrong", "not so wrong", "had not been wrong"s in there that I didnt count.
 

duckroll

Member
Thai said:
"was/are/is/were not wrong" combined give me 29.


But he throws in some "not all wrong", "not so wrong", "had not been wrong"s in there that I didnt count.

Lol. Thanks. That puts it up head to head with "much and more" as the most repetitive general phrase not associated with any chapter/character! :D
 
Thai said:
using kindle search:

"words are wind" 13 times
"much and more" 30 times

what else do you guys want to count? I've seen "many and more" and "little and less" a few times too.
How bout "if I look back I'm lost"?
 

Thai

Bane was better.
Generic said:
It was worded differently at times. "Selhorys may be where whores go." "He did not know where whores go" "Where ever you find whores. Is that what father meant? IS that where whores go?"

Search for the words "where whores go" and you should get the same result.



14


k, got it.

"much and more" winning so far!
 

duckroll

Member
Btw, I think another good comparison would be to take those phrases which are isolated to certain characters, and compare the phrase count against how many chapters/pages that character actually has.

For example, how many Tyrion chapters are there in total compared to the number of Theon chapters?
 

Azrael

Member
Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:
Yeah there will few left standing. I'm positive Arya's going to die. Either Jon or Dany will die, assuming the 99% chance that Jon is still alive. Tyrion will get a somewhat happy ending though, he's suffered enough. Jaime and Cersei will die and so will poor Tommen and Myrcella. Jorah's definitely fucked. Sansa will live, and Bran will live as a face in a tree. I could go on, but yeah most everyone will die.

By the end of the series the only ones left standing will be Hodor and Patchface, and they will face off in the ultimate battle of good versus evil.
 

Thai

Bane was better.
Thai said:
using kindle search:

"words are wind" 13 times
"much and more" 30 times

what else do you guys want to count? I've seen "many and more" and "little and less" a few times too.


"little and less" 11
"many and more" 8


funny how so relatively few times these phrases are used in a 1100 page book still manage to stick out.
 

duckroll

Member
Basileus777 said:
Probably a joke based on that Tyrion chapter on the Rhoyne. Martin has a paragraph describing like 20 types of turtles.

Yes, I know, but why is there a jump in SoS as well? I really don't remember.
 

Thai

Bane was better.
Basileus777 said:
Probably a joke based on that Tyrion chapter on the Rhoyne. Martin has a paragraph describing like 20 types of turtles.


what the hell? SoS has so many instances of Turtles, too!
 

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
Thai said:
"little and less" 11
"many and more" 8


funny how so relatively few times these phrases are used in a 1100 page book still manage to stick out.
How come the book keeps jumping in size? Starts on page 3, ends on 959.

Second, some of these are solely used in character chapters.
 

Ikael

Member
Finished it! Some toughts:

- This is AFFC part II, period. Yet another novel whose only purpouse is to bridge what originally was going to be two trilogies separated by one 5 year gap, and one does have to question if it wouldn't have been better to go with the original plan.

- Also, it confirms two things:
1) That the decision of separating westerosi and meerense POVs was one of the worst things ever. I will gladly pay more money for a properly "director's cut" version when said chapters are properly arranged.
2) The picking of which chapters goes into one book or another seems to be atrociously bad. Have the Cersei chapters would have been on AFFC, said book would have become one bajillion times more awesome (shame! shame on the sinnner!), while I cannot believe how they cut Ayra chapters ("had to restain myself in order to do not write more of these"... WTF Martin?) and the whole Winterfell siege resolution so we can have more of Meerense non - decision taking and Tyrion getting drunk. Jesus.

- That being said, it is true that the whole Meerense knot is a royal plot pain in the arse to resolve. In the end, Martin decided to solve it by adding more elements instead of trimming them. Also, it is kind of disappoining to see that even if he arranges every element necessary in to solve the Meerense knot (Dany taming her dragons, Victarion and the iron fleet conveniently arriving to slaver's bay, the pale mare creeping treatening both sides of the conflict, the historic precedence of the Nymeria mass migration, etc), he decides to postpone its final resolution.

- I cannot belive how the hell they introduce another Tagaryen heir on the 5th book. Is true that it was prophesized, that it is not a last minute deus ex machina, but damn son. So instead of a Targ (Dany) VS Targ (Jon R+L theory) final conflict we might have an Azor Azahi VS Dany VS Gryffyn? Still, that shows that for all the naysayers blabbling about soap operas and Lost comparations, Martin does have a plan. And seeing how the plot kickstarts once he solves the tedious "homework" of Meeren, it seems that glory awaits on the Winds of Winter.

The good:

- I found it pretty great how the two conflicts starts to merge. Albeit Westeros is the main star of the show here, to see how the free cities and Braavos will also joing the fry just adds more epicness to an already inmense scope.

- One does no simply walk out of slavery so eas... well I guess that Tyrion just did it, bitches. Like a boss.

- The whole Royne backstory and exposition. It was incredibly poetic and evocative

- How Bran and Davos went from shunned characters to stars of the show. Their following chapters are going to be freaking awesome (and we might even see what the hell happened to Rickon and Osha).

- Arya being awesomesauce and outmaneovering the faceless men. I wonder which important figure of Westeros she will have to kill *wink* *wink*

- The whole alliance forging between wildling and northmen shows quite a lot of acumen.

- To see how hilariously brutal the Ironmen are. They are my most despised faction on the game of thrones and a bunch of utter Mary Sues, but I enjoyed the, hum, "clash of cultures" at the slaver bay quite a lot.

-Everything Manderly - related.

The bad:

- How they included a full Valyria map yet they told nothing about the Valyrian doom other than what we already know (lots of fire 'n stuff n' shit). I thought that a great way to force a mass runaway towards westeros was to start seeing the signs of the Valyria doom appearing into Meeren, but now I am wonder if Martin even considere

- How Jon does every single thing right, while Dany screws every ruling decision, yet in the end is Jon the one who gets the end of the shaft.

- Only one character showing Dany's inhability to properly rule Meeren would have suficed, thank you very much.

- Even if the east is way more fleshed out, the Meerense culture is still painted as in no single virtue could be founded within, I expected more grey, to be honest.

- Penny is a great character, but man did I hate her. I was so, so glad when Tyrion literally slapped sense into her.

- No Howland Reed yet :(

The future

- It is kind of obvious that Jon is Azor Azai, and that he will probably be reborn, all things considered. But until then, the north is going to be badly fucked up and at the mercy of the Boltons.

- As much as they will try to avoid it, whoever gets in charge of the Night's Watch is going to be involved in Westerosi politics.

- I do think that the whole Quentin's plot existed in order to create enemity between Dany and the Martells, and that it will eventually lead to an split between the two Tagaryen factions instead of a marriage.

- I don't believe that Stannnis is dead, even if his army is destroyed. I find it hard that such a pivotal character would be killed off - screen.

- Braavos will surely be dragged into the fight thenk to the interests of the Iron Bank, while the free cities will get involved as well thanks to the multiple sellswords companies that will intervene on the wars.

- As much as Varys is interested in Cersei getting power so she weakens the kingdom even more, I think that in the end it will get it out of hand (shot of like the US giving support to the Talibans and then backfiring).

Wew, I think that it's all :D
 

Amir0x

Banned
re: Doom of Valyria

I noted in this book specific mention of Firewyrms that supposedly were burrowing under old Valyria. Dragons in the Earth, essentially. Given that the cataclysm seems fire-based in nature, volcanic even, i am throwing out there that the Firewyrms are involved.

I think the Firewyrms were burrowing to some extent, maybe even spurred on by the rulers of Valyria to some end, and they accidentally triggered a volcanic cataclysm. We know, for example, since the dragons have come back that the power of magic/fire has dramatically increased.

It stands to reason that in a place we KNOW is Volcanically active, the increased activity around magma chambers via Firewyrms might trigger a reaction.

*shrug*
 

duckroll

Member
Amir0x said:
I noted in this book specific mention of Firewyrms that supposedly were burrowing under old Valyria. Dragons in the Earth, essentially. Given that the cataclysm seems fire-based in nature, volcanic even, i am throwing out there that the Firewyrms are involved.

Is that where whores go?
 

bengraven

Member
Gonaria said:
Oh, He'll do that. He'll just be in the body of a gigantic polar bear

I laughed.

tokkun said:
I don't know. He likes to play up the "no one is safe" stuff, but when it comes to major characters we get a lot more death fakeouts than actual deaths. How many POV characters who have had POVs in more than one book have died? The only one who comes to mind is Catelyn, and she didn't even stay dead.

On the other hand, he has 'fake killed' the POVs: Arya, Asha, Theon, Davos, Dany, Tyrion, (probably) Brienne, (probably) Jon.

We will have to wait and see if Stannis is really dead (I'm predicting that will be fake). If so, the most established character to die in ADWD was Pycelle.

I think the only reason the big characters are getting "outs" is that after GOT he wanted to do a trilogy and then 7 books. Had this been a shorter series, we would have had much more frequent major deaths.

He has said that he has the endings figured out for the main characters and most of the secondary ones, but I think these endings all figure into his end-game. As such, he still has a long way to go until end-game, so we have to wait until the end of Wolves or for the mass genocide that is Dream of Spring for more major deaths.

With Ned's death he decided he was going to go a more realistic route of killing major characters whenever, but back then he didn't realize he would have 7 books to fill.

Amir0x said:
re: Doom of Valyria

I noted in this book specific mention of Firewyrms that supposedly were burrowing under old Valyria. Dragons in the Earth, essentially. Given that the cataclysm seems fire-based in nature, volcanic even, i am throwing out there that the Firewyrms are involved.

I think the Firewyrms were burrowing to some extent, maybe even spurred on by the rulers of Valyria to some end, and they accidentally triggered a volcanic cataclysm. We know, for example, since the dragons have come back that the power of magic/fire has dramatically increased.

It stands to reason that in a place we KNOW is Volcanically active, the increased activity around magma chambers via Firewyrms might trigger a reaction.

*shrug*

I had a theory that was very similar. I think GRRM is going a "Deathwing" route and that there could have been one or multiple massive dragons that destroyed the island from within, that eventually the Valyrians had "dug too deep" and that the firewyrms were a hint at bigger things. I was thinking that because the three places that symbolize loss and destruction all could be related to dragons: Summerhall, Harrehal, and Valyria.
 

ItAintEasyBeinCheesy

it's 4th of July in my asshole
Amir0x said:
re: Doom of Valyria

I noted in this book specific mention of Firewyrms that supposedly were burrowing under old Valyria. Dragons in the Earth, essentially. Given that the cataclysm seems fire-based in nature, volcanic even, i am throwing out there that the Firewyrms are involved.

I think the Firewyrms were burrowing to some extent, maybe even spurred on by the rulers of Valyria to some end, and they accidentally triggered a volcanic cataclysm. We know, for example, since the dragons have come back that the power of magic/fire has dramatically increased.

It stands to reason that in a place we KNOW is Volcanically active, the increased activity around magma chambers via Firewyrms might trigger a reaction.

*shrug*

Possibly involves the Dragon Horn which Euron claims to have found in Valyria........ could stretch it and say it calls the wyrms as well as controls Dragons. Would help in the plot if they want to somehow get them from Valyria to some other place.... though they did already blow it once on the Iron Islands.
 

Amir0x

Banned
bengraven said:
I had a theory that was very similar. I think GRRM is going a "Deathwing" route and that there could have been one or multiple massive dragons that destroyed the island from within, that eventually the Valyrians had "dug too deep" and that the firewyrms were a hint at bigger things. I was thinking that because the three places that symbolize loss and destruction all could be related to dragons: Summerhall, Harrehal, and Valyria.

Song of Ice and Fire.

The growing Winter must be related to Ice Dragons. They said there is a magical element to the seasons. So, up north, it's a barely hospitable frozen wasteland. In Essos, Old Valyria was destroyed in a fire-based cataclysm - related to a mighty fire dragon, possibly, and the Firewyrms. And that entire place is now a firey wasteland.
 

Piecake

Member
Ikael said:
The bad:


- How Jon does every single thing right, while Dany screws every ruling decision, yet in the end is Jon the one who gets the end of the shaft.

Completely disagree on this. His last act was utter foolishness. He knows that many people, and a lot of important people in the Night's Watch disagree with his prudent, long-term, and correct decision with the Wildings. How he figured that those people would sit by and watch The Lord Commander take a horde of wildings down to winterfell to attack the Boltons and rescue Mance and his sister is beyond me.

He must have spent too much time around Ned, was too young and thought himself invincible, or also thought he had plot armor
 

tokkun

Member
Ikael said:
- It is kind of obvious that Jon is Azor Azai, and that he will probably be reborn, all things considered.

What makes this "obvious"?

bengraven said:
I think the only reason the big characters are getting "outs" is that after GOT he wanted to do a trilogy and then 7 books. Had this been a shorter series, we would have had much more frequent major deaths.

That doesn't particularly excuse his practice of faking a character's death by having a POV chapter end with them about to die and "everything turned red/black" or by having their death reported in another POV. And I guess I forgot to include Bran in my list, as his death is also faked in this manner.
 
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