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[bengraven]

Westeros has some damn good theories on Aegon.

Including that he might be the son of Illyrio with his wife, a Targ apparently, Serra.

Kind of out there, I know, but it would make sense as to what I and V are up to.

Edit:

Inside was a painted likeness of a woman with big blue eyes and pale golden hair streaked by silver. “Serra. I found her in a Lysene pillow house and brought her home to warm my bed, but in the end I wed her.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Connington wouldn't know if Aegon was fake, and while he mistrusted Varys I think he would have jumped at the idea of taking care of his best friend's son; it gave him a purpose in life.

The Darkstar also has Targ traits, as does Aurane Waters.

 

[Amir0x]

Okay, here's another question and another theory:

Question: will we see more dragons? The dragon beneath Winterfell or the dragon beneath Dragonstone, both of which were hinted at? Or others, maybe in Asshai?

I think it's pretty clear that's the direction we are going.

My theory is that it is burrowing Dragons (Firewyrms) which destroyed Old Valyria; it is an Ice Dragon - or many Ice Dragons - that has to do with the lands of always winter up north. And the destruction of that one town Hardhome is clearly dragon-related.

There are definitely more dragons. The point is why are they coming back now? Is it the rise of Dany and her use of magic which brought back her three dragon children?

 

[elrechazado]

Connington wouldn't know if Aegon was fake, and while he mistrusted Varys I think he would have jumped at the idea of taking care of his best friend's son; it gave him a purpose in life.

The Darkstar also has Targ traits, as does Aurane Waters.

Yeah, the list of people with targ traits is immeasurable really at this point in the books.

 

[gburgess10]

there are such huge events in Dance with Dragons. After finishing it it's all the more amazing to me people think it's all just running in place. Catastrophic character events occur. I don't even need to mention Jon's story.

Yes catastrophic character events occur. Retarded character events.

Dany:

1. "Saved" Mirri Maz Dur
2. MMD betrayed savior
3. Learns lesson to trust less people
4. "Betrayed" by Jorah and Barristan
5. Trusts even less

What does she do?

6. "If I look back I am lost"- How about learn form the past? How about you remember what you've learned? Shit I forgot GRRM needs to contrive some story. I'm sorry, do some more retarded shit plz.
7. Saves the slaves in Mereen= freedmen.
8. Rules the Mereeneese.
9. Trusts too many of the Mereenese. Especially this Green Grace bitch. What did she learn from 1-5? Wait I forgot her new philosophy from 6. Please become more retarded, Your Grace.
10. Marries Hizdhar at the suggestion of the Mother of the Sons of the Harpy, this Green Grace. K you are certifiably retarded. Or maybe GRRM needs to make you deaf dumb and blind so that when Tyrion shows up, he can act like a genius and clean up her shit.

11. Locks up all the dragons except the one that likely ate the child. Refuses to train them. So what, they are just gonna follow her to Westeros and fight in her battles? Lololololololol.

12. Starts to love Daario. Jesus. The guy's a disgusting creep and she knows it.

13. Wants peace too much.

14. Ends up killing MUCH more people through her desire for peace (massacre at Astapor, pale mare, encroaching war, the deaths in the pits (result of her "peace-keeping" marriage)), than what some little heavy handedness in rule would have ended up killing.


That was just all of the retarded character events I saw in Dany.


Can you point me to some positive (unretarded and non character devolving) events so I can find something I can appreciate in what (IMO) is a lot of contrived stupidity development in characters?

 

[bengraven]

I think it's pretty clear that's the direction we are going.

My theory is that it is burrowing Dragons (Firewyrms) which destroyed Old Valyria; it is an Ice Dragon - or many Ice Dragons - that has to do with the lands of always winter up north. And the destruction of that one town Hardhome is clearly dragon-related.

There are definitely more dragons. The point is why are they coming back now? Is it the rise of Dany and her use of magic which brought back her three dragon children?

And who has control of them or can they be controlled?

You might have a point about the Ice Dragon. I always thought Bran and Jon's references to Nan's story about the Ice Dragon ("it was cold, like the breath of the Ice Dragon from Old Nan's stories") was a reference to Martin's story of the same name. But maybe it was foreshadowing.

With the new knowledge that the dragons of Dany's are living fire under their skin, then since the title of the series is Ice and Fire then there needs to be a counter to Dany's.

So the dragons might actually have six heads. 3 v 3.

Edit: ah, yeah, you said that earlier, I get what you mean now.

Connington wouldn't know if Aegon was fake, and while he mistrusted Varys I think he would have jumped at the idea of taking care of his best friend's son; it gave him a purpose in life.

The Darkstar also has Targ traits, as does Aurane Waters.

Yeah, that's what makes it difficult, there are lots of people even in Westeros that have "Targ" colorations.


For the record, that Westeros thread I was talking about was http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/53304-adwd-spoilers-young-griff/. There is a second one after that was locked that's referenced.

Good stuff, you can always count on Westeros.

 

[Dresden]

re: Dany

She's a young girl still. Barristan points this out. Tyrion's POV when he meets Brown Ben is also a little commentary on this as well. She's still learning, but she's also young.

 

[ItAintEasyBeinCheesy]

This seemed pretty good an explanation

1) The Valyrian Empire DID try to conquer Westeros before Aegon the Conqueror came. Six hundred years ago, in fact. They landed forces north of the Wall, thinking that this would be the perfect way to begin an assault: the wildlings are spread out and disorganized, they have no proper towns, and the kingdoms below the Wall don't really have information about what goes on north of the Wall, relying on the (even-then) undermanned Watch. The plan was to land at Hardhome, the only proper town (thus, the only possible threat), overwhelm it, and use it as a base of operations for the landing of more forces. When everything was in order, dragons would destroy the Watch, dragonriders would open the gates, and an army would pour south of the Wall, seemingly from nowhere, surprising and overwhelming the Stark's kingdom. The Valyrian dragonriders would consolidate their forces, land more at White Harbor and along the coast, and then pour south into the Riverlands and beyond (again, using the North's natural landmarks--Moat Cailin and the Neck--to shield themselves from detection from the southern kings, until it was too late).

3) An exploratory force lands at Hardhome. Skinchanger meets dragonrider, and the struggle for control of the dragons---a struggle the Valyrians were completely unprepared for---leads to the mini-Doom, the destruction of Hardhome. The surviving dragons end up in caves, and die quickly in the snow--not many were brought for the first assault, in any case, and since not all skinchangers have Bran-level skill, maybe they were unable to fully warg the dragons, lost control for some reason, or there were fewer skinchangers than dragons (since skinchanging is not a common skill). In any case, Valyria abandons its plans to take Westeros, since the idea of sorcerers who can steal their dragons terrifies them.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/53616-adwd-spoilers-hardhome/

Some cool theories there.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I think it's pretty clear that's the direction we are going.

My theory is that it is burrowing Dragons (Firewyrms) which destroyed Old Valyria; it is an Ice Dragon - or many Ice Dragons - that has to do with the lands of always winter up north. And the destruction of that one town Hardhome is clearly dragon-related.

There are definitely more dragons. The point is why are they coming back now? Is it the rise of Dany and her use of magic which brought back her three dragon children?

I've kind of wondered if greyscale has a role in the dragons, namely in the possibility of birthing. There could truly be a stone dragon on Dragonstone sure, but what if it means it's really Shareen? Stannis didn't forge Lightbringer with a loved one. What if forging it truly through Shareen is what's required to not only make the sword legit, but hatch something inside her?

Crazy perhaps but still..

 

[bengraven]

This seemed pretty good an explanation



http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/53616-adwd-spoilers-hardhome/

Some cool theories there.

God damn, to be honest the whole business up North with Hardhome was something I kind of glossed over because at the point I wanted more meat. I guess the meat was that there were major events going on up there that I wasn't paying attention to.

I've kind of wondered if greyscale has a role in the dragons, namely in the possibility of birthing. There could truly be a stone dragon on Dragonstone sure, but what if it means it's really Shareen? Stannis didn't forge Lightbringer with a loved one. What if forging it truly through Shareen is what's required to not only make the sword legit, but hatch something inside her?

Crazy perhaps but still..

Like Stannis would have to stab his own daughter?

Yes.

Very much so. And Stannis could do it, if he meant he could be Azzor. His role has been set up since the beginning to be the man who does what's right even if it doesn't make him happy.

 

[gburgess10]

re: Dany

She's a young girl still. Barristan points this out. Tyrion's POV when he meets Brown Ben is also a little commentary on this as well. She's still learning, but she's also young.

She learned from MMD that she can't trust those she "saves". She brought ethical civilization to Mereen by forcefully abolishing its slavery and killing a bunch of its leaders in a protracted crucifying torture visible to all.

Then she marries one of them.

Maybe MMD taught her nothing.

Or maybe GRRM wants to contrive the story to setup for later events.

My vote goes to the latter theory.

 

[Amir0x]

People forget because Dany unleashed some fucking dragons on slavers that they think she is grown and makes intelligent decision.

It's fucking easy to unleash dragons. Any retard can do that. But it's immensely difficult to control dragons... just as It is difficult to rule - and Dany is finding that out. I found every last one of the plot points extremely enlightening as to the character of Dany. She is a child - having sex and having dragons burn people does not make you an adult who understands the intricacies of ruling a completely foreign culture.

Daario was just her stupid passions as a kid. It's like a high school crush. A simple analogy is that Daario was the bad boy, and we all know how much girls love the bad boy.

Again, this just highlights how finnicky the readers of this series are. They want some bs where everything is magical and she is super competent. She isn't. She is a kid. She literally knows NOTHING of the world. She was sold off by her brother, fucked by a man coldly and her one claim to power is bringing the Dragons back in her grief.

And even that has fallen apart - she is scared of the Dragons and their power. They're monsters.



This is evident in the themes of this entire series. Dragons are only tamed at your own danger. They have killed their tamers many times. And in my opinion, they are directly responsible for the Doom of Valyria and the reason the land of always winter is the way it is. Ice Dragons and Fire Dragons are not the playthings of rulers. It takes an immensely strong will to subjugate one of them, as Dany finally showed as she whipped Drogon into submission, and she only gained the courage to do that when there was no other choice to her.


Your readings are farcical at best.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Well, I just finished ADWD, finally.

I'm not sure what to think right now. I really liked the book overall, and I think it felt more like the earlier entries than AFFC did, but I really grew to dislike Daenerys. The indecision, shunning of her dragons, and fawning over that Daario goon just frustrated me. I realize it was supposed to illustrate her personal struggle of being a kind person, but having to be a ruthless ruler at the same time, but damn if it didn't irritate me. I liked her final chapter a lot, though. I think she's finally understanding things and will get back on track now.

While I liked most of Tyrion's chapters, it felt like he was being used as a catalyst for George to show us the events outside of Westeros and Mereen. That's probably fine, but a lot of that stuff felt a bit forced.

I'm really happy about the Aegon and Griff plot. I liked all the characters, and rejoiced when they landed and started kicking ass in Westeros. I really wish them nothing but success, but I have a terrible feeling that Aegon is going to die if he leads the attack on Storm's End. Hopefully GRRM knows how predictable this would be and doesn't have him die there.

I loved pretty much all of the chapters in the north, as well as Arya's (Braavos counts as the north, I suppose). Theon's chapters in particular were surprisingly entertaining to read.

I'm sure Jon isn't actually dead, but I hope he isn't simply resurrected by Melisandre. I've red a lot of stuff about him being Azor Ahai reborn, but I thought that prophecy already applied to Daenerys's rebirth? Then again, if the theory that Jon is a Targaryen is correct, and I suspect it may be (his blood did smoke!), maybe the prophecy can apply to him as well. I just hope he doesn't end up as a zombie like Berric Dondarion, or simply lives on inside Ghost.

Varys returning in the epilogue was awesome! I'm glad to see that he isn't just going to let the Lannister's get their way.

Overall, the book felt like more stage setting, which is fine, but it sucks that we are almost certainly going to have wait a long time for the next book. It's going to be an amazing book, though. Even if Daenerys gets stuck playing with the lame-ass Dothraki for most of the book, there's enough stuff going on in Westeros at this point that there are bound to be some explosions.

 

[elrechazado]

It's altogether possible to be dissatisfied with the dany character progression and not require that she be all wise at the same time.

 

[Basileus777]

This seemed pretty good an explanation





http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/53616-adwd-spoilers-hardhome/

Some cool theories there.

The Valyrians invading Westeros via North of the Wall makes absolutely no sense. The Narrow Sea is incredibly narrow, they don't need a "base of operations" thousands of miles to the north. When you control Dragonstone and the Narrow Sea, why would you try to attack in a method that would be a logistical nightmare?

 

[bengraven]

People forget because Dany unleashed some fucking dragons on slavers that they think she is grown and makes intelligent decision.


Your readings are farcical at best.

Right, her whole arc has been about learning how to be a queen.

And she's learning life is hard and being a queen is harder.

 

[Salazar]

And even that has fallen apart - she is scared of the Dragons and their power. They're monsters.

Quentyn getting fried was well written. Raises the whip, all confident, and notices it's burning. Then notices he is burning. Why ? Because fuck you in dragon-speak, that's why.

 

[Pollux]

I said it earlier in other thread.

Varys - mummer
Aegon - dragon

Varys is protecting Aegon and putting him on the throne. It's not a fake dragon, it's a dragon protected by a mummer.

Well that makes sense. I haven't really been on in the last month or so. I missed pretty much any discussions from earlier.

My B, I should probably skim through them.

 

[bengraven]

No apologies man, we cool.

Quentyn getting fried was well written. Raises the whip, all confident, and notices it's burning. Then notices he is burning. Why ? Because fuck you in dragon-speak, that's why.

And he even says that the dragon is standing in front of him open mouthed, breathing on him. Then he realizes "oh, dragon breath is hot cuz you know, it's fire".

 

[gburgess10]

People forget because Dany unleashed some fucking dragons on slavers that they think she is grown and makes intelligent decision.

It's fucking easy to unleash dragons. Any retard can do that. But it's immensely difficult to control dragons... just as It is difficult to rule - and Dany is finding that out. I found every last one of the plot points extremely enlightening as to the character of Dany. She is a child - having sex and having dragons burn people does not make you an adult who understands the intricacies of ruling a completely foreign culture.

Daario was just her stupid passions as a kid. It's like a high school crush. A simple analogy is that Daario was the bad boy, and we all know how much girls love the bad boy.

Again, this just highlights how finnicky the readers of this series are. They want some bs where everything is magical and she is super competent. She isn't. She is a kid. She literally knows NOTHING of the world. She was sold off by her brother, fucked by a man coldly and her one claim to power is bringing the Dragons back in her grief.

And even that has fallen apart - she is scared of the Dragons and their power. They're monsters.



This is evident in the themes of this entire series. Dragons are only tamed at your own danger. They have killed their tamers many times. And in my opinion, they are directly responsible for the Doom of Valyria and the reason the land of always winter is the way it is. Ice Dragons and Fire Dragons are not the playthings of rulers. It takes an immensely strong will to subjugate one of them, as Dany finally showed as she whipped Drogon into submission, and she only gained the courage to do that when there was no other choice to her.


Your readings are farcical at best.

No I thought that the MMD betrayal had taught her not to trust the people she "saves."

I can reasonably believe that she grew afraid of her dragons and locked them up. After all she knows nothing of them. And she definitely does not know as much as we do about the Doom Of Valyria.

But marrying Hizdhar?

As to her taming Drogon, how did she have no other choice? Barristan chased after her to stop her from jumping into the pit and confronting her dragon. She willingly went into the pit, with no idea why or what she was doing. Only that her dragon had returned.

She didn't jump into the pit because she was concerned about how Drogon was hurting the fighters- she went because she was afraid they might hurt him. The only reason he didn't burn her was because he wasn't made overly vicious like his siblings by closed imprisonment. I doubt anyone else will be cowing a dragon by whiplash.

And finally, she didn't control the dragon, not even in the end. She nearly died on her trek because she can't get him to do what she wants.

Her rule in Mereen barely involved the dragons, the major point in your post.

She may be a child, but she cannot forget losing her first child through treachery, and only someone willfully ignorant (after having that experience) can trust anyone from a city whose leaders she crucified.

Hence my assertion that GRRM has fallen to contrivances in his storytelling (Ghost's confinement as well is another example).

How are my readings classified as farcical simply because I don't ascribe deeper meanings to events in the novel? I chose to cynically read the novel as soon as I saw the unreasonable choices Dany made- she might be a child, but she ignores sage advice when she should take it. She made bad choices, ok. But she made too many of them, and she made them too often.

 

[ItAintEasyBeinCheesy]

Yes catastrophic character events occur. Retarded character events.

Dany:

1. "Saved" Mirri Maz Dur
2. MMD betrayed savior
3. Learns lesson to trust less people
4. "Betrayed" by Jorah and Barristan
5. Trusts even less

What does she do?

6. "If I look back I am lost"- How about learn form the past? How about you remember what you've learned? Shit I forgot GRRM needs to contrive some story. I'm sorry, do some more retarded shit plz.
7. Saves the slaves in Mereen= freedmen.
8. Rules the Mereeneese.
9. Trusts too many of the Mereenese. Especially this Green Grace bitch. What did she learn from 1-5? Wait I forgot her new philosophy from 6. Please become more retarded, Your Grace.
10. Marries Hizdhar at the suggestion of the Mother of the Sons of the Harpy, this Green Grace. K you are certifiably retarded. Or maybe GRRM needs to make you deaf dumb and blind so that when Tyrion shows up, he can act like a genius and clean up her shit.

11. Locks up all the dragons except the one that likely ate the child. Refuses to train them. So what, they are just gonna follow her to Westeros and fight in her battles? Lololololololol.

12. Starts to love Daario. Jesus. The guy's a disgusting creep and she knows it.

13. Wants peace too much.

14. Ends up killing MUCH more people through her desire for peace (massacre at Astapor, pale mare, encroaching war, the deaths in the pits (result of her "peace-keeping" marriage)), than what some little heavy handedness in rule would have ended up killing.


That was just all of the retarded character events I saw in Dany.


Can you point me to some positive (unretarded and non character devolving) events so I can find something I can appreciate in what (IMO) is a lot of contrived stupidity development in characters?

They tried to capture Drogon 2-3 times but he escaped and never came back to Mereen. She cant train or properly control the dragons, the Red Priest on Victarion Greyjoy's boat read the Valyrian glyphs on the horn that said the dragons had to be bound with blood and the horn.

 

[gburgess10]

They tried to capture Drogon 2-3 times but he escaped and never came back to Mereen. She cant train or properly control the dragons, the Red Priest on Victarion Greyjoy's boat read the Valyrian glyphs on the horn that said the dragons had to be bound with blood and the horn.

I know and remember this.

Its not just the fact that she doesn't know how to train the dragons, but she doesn't attempt to learn how.

There are lion handlers in Mereen from the pits; she could have asked them for advice. Surely they could have told her something useful in training them to eat only certain food (especially considering how intelligent they are).

The horn is not the only way that the Dragons can be somewhat tamed.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Anyone got an official tally on how many times "words are wind" was said?

I just did a search on my Kindle for Windows software and it counted 13 occurrences. Seemed like there were more to me--it really started to stick out after the fifth occurrence or so. I wouldn't have had a problem with it if it were just one or two characters' tag line, but it's just odd that so many people in the book decided to adopt the words.

 

[Dresden]

Lion tamers, really?

Her fault was that she never trained them properly when they were young.

 

[Salazar]

Lion tamers, really?

Same shit, bigger tools.

 

[elrechazado]

Lion tamers, really?

Her fault was that she never trained them properly when they were young.

She needs tyrion. Good thing they finally got together in this book. Oh...

 

[Pollux]

No apologies man, we cool.



And he even says that the dragon is standing in front of him open mouthed, breathing on him. Then he realizes "oh, dragon breath is hot cuz you know, it's fire".

Quentyn was a moron the entire book, this is just his crowning moment of idiocy.

Lion tamers, really?

Her fault was that she never trained them properly when they were young.

Let's be real here, the old Targs who had dragons knew how to train them, they were taught by those who came before them. Dany is a scared girl who doesn't know any different. She needs to do this to learn....now she's figuring it out with Drogon. We'll see how it goes in the next book.

 

[gburgess10]

Lion tamers, really?

Her fault was that she never trained them properly when they were young.

Anything is better than nothing.

Also I called them "handlers" because, really, can you tame a lion?

Nope, but you can handle them. And they could have possible taught her how to at least get a handle on her dragons.

 

[Amir0x]

No I thought that the MMD betrayal had taught her not to trust the people she "saves."

But marrying Hizdhar?

She doesn't know who to trust. She is constantly going back and forth in her head about almost all the people she has besides her due to her prophecy. But she has to trust SOME people, and as a child she keeps making the wrong choices. This is logical. She is a child and completely ignorant of the world.

As to her taming Drogon, how did she have no other choice? Barristan chased after her to stop her from jumping into the pit and confronting her dragon. She willingly went into the pit, with no idea why or what she was doing. Only that her dragon had returned.

She didn't jump into the pit because she was concerned about how Drogon was hurting the fighters- she went because she was afraid they might hurt him. The only reason he didn't burn her was because he wasn't made overly vicious like his siblings by closed imprisonment. I doubt anyone else will be cowing a dragon by whiplash.

Like I said, she had no other choice. The choice between letting Drogon die and letting Drogon not die = NO CHOICE.

And you're wrong, gburgess10. He DID burn her. We have Barristan's own account that she had flames licking on her skin. She just remained unburnt because, as we know, fire doesn't cause her physical damage like so many others. She is the blood of the dragon.

And even above and beyond your theory is wrong. Drogon is consistently described as the most wild of her three dragons. In fact, the only reason he is free is because unlike the other two he was unable to be locked up.

So not only did she scold her wildest and most dangerous dragon; not only did she ride her largest dragon; not only did she do this while having his flames lick her face; she did it by dominating him with her whip.

It took immense strength of will to be able to even ride him and, again, demonstrates you pretty much have a farcical reading of the book. You were either skimming or you simply do not pay close attention to detail.

And finally, she didn't control the dragon, not even in the end. She nearly died on her trek because she can't get him to do what she wants.

Of course. That's the point... This is not Harry Potter. In this grim reality, there are real consequences when you deal with things you do not understand. Dany ignorantly thinks that these are her children. Yet they are monsters who eat children and kill people beyond command. Taming them is immensely difficult, and we have accounts of dragons who killed their riders and tamers.

All your complaints are just comical screeds that are meant for some other books. So far, everything is -exactly- in keeping with the world GRRM has made. If you liked it before, you should like it after. If you didn't like these aspects before, you won't like it now.

 

[sazabirules]

I agree. Anything would have been better than leaving them locked up to rot away. I hope GRRM clarifies what Targaryens are immune to since some have died from sickness.

 

[ItAintEasyBeinCheesy]

I know and remember this.

Its not just the fact that she doesn't know how to train the dragons, but she doesn't attempt to learn how.

There are lion handlers in Mereen from the pits; she could have asked them for advice. Surely they could have told her something useful in training them to eat only certain food (especially considering how intelligent they are).

The horn is not the only way that the Dragons can be somewhat tamed.

Nah, that would take away any sort of power etc they have if they could just be controlled like dogs.

 

[Pollux]

She doesn't know who to trust. She is constantly going back and forth in her head about almost all the people she has besides her due to her prophecy. But she has to trust SOME people, and as a child she keeps making the wrong choices. This is logical. She is a child and completely ignorant of the world.




Like I said, she had no other choice. The choice between letting Drogon die and letting Drogon not die = NO CHOICE.

And you're wrong, gburgess10. He DID burn her. We have Barristan's own account that she had flames licking on her skin. She just remained unburnt because, as we know, fire doesn't cause her physical damage like so many others. She is the blood of the dragon.

And even above and beyond your theory is wrong. Drogon is consistently described as the most wild of her three dragons. In fact, the only reason he is free is because unlike the other two he was unable to be locked up.

So not only did she scold her wildest and most dangerous dragon; not only did she ride her largest dragon; not only did she do this while having his flames lick her face; she did it by dominating him with her whip.

It took immense strength of will to be able to even ride him and, again, demonstrates you pretty much have a farcical reading of the book. You were either skimming or you simply do not pay close attention to detail.



Of course. That's the point... This is not Harry Potter. In this grim reality, there are real consequences when you deal with things you do not understand. Dany ignorantly thinks that these are her children. Yet they are monsters who eat children and kill people beyond command. Taming them is immensely difficult, and we have accounts of dragons who killed their riders and tamers.

All your complaints are just comical screeds that are meant for some other books. So far, everything is -exactly- in keeping with the world GRRM has made. If you liked it before, you should like it after. If you didn't like these aspects before, you won't like it now.

Wasn't this a one time thing?

 

[Amir0x]

I agree. Anything would have been better than leaving them locked up to rot away. I hope GRRM clarifies what Targaryens are immune to since some have died from sickness.

It's worth noting that just because you're a Targaryen doesn't necessarily mean you are imbued with all the Targaryen specialization. You may be Targ, but it doesn't mean you'll be especially immune to some diseases or that fire won't burn you.

 

[Pollux]

It's worth noting that just because you're a Targaryen doesn't necessarily mean you are imbued with all the Targaryen specialization. You may be Targ, but it doesn't mean you'll be especially immune to some diseases or that fire won't burn you.

Like some ultra recessive trait? If we're saying its all genetic then that makes sense.

 

[elrechazado]

Like some ultra recessive trait? If we're saying its all genetic then that makes sense.

More like a wizard did it for plot convenience.

 

[ZephyrFate]

Wasn't this a one time thing?

GRRM stated it was, but as we've seen before he goes back on his words a lot.

Words are wind, indeed.

 

[Amir0x]

Like some ultra recessive trait? If we're saying its all genetic then that makes sense.

Well it has to be genetic, right? I mean I doubt they'll say genetics in the series - they don't know about genetics in that manner - but we know, for example, Viserys wasn't immune to fire.

So far Dany has withstood the flames multiple times now... maybe though this only happens when she exerts a certain force of will. A personal magic of some sort.

And if you consider the show with GRRM approval, she was unburnt by the seering hot bath too and the hot dragon eggs

Kind of hard to say

 

[Veelk]

Well it has to be genetic, right? I mean I doubt they'll say genetics in the series - they don't know about genetics in that manner - but we know, for example, Viserys wasn't immune to fire.

So far Dany has withstood the flames multiple times now... maybe though this only happens when she exerts a certain force of will. A personal magic of some sort.

Kind of hard to say

The only times she withstood fire is during Drogo's funeral pyre and Drogon fireblast at her. GRRM said the former was a special occasion, and that she could be burned normally. I think that the fact that drogon couldn't burn her is because he was given birth from the same fire that refused to burn her. Unless she was burned in some other way that I am not remembering?

 

[Amir0x]

The only times she withstood fire is during Drogo's funeral pyre and Drogon fireblast at her. GRRM said the former was a special occasion, and that she could be burned normally. I think that the fact that drogon couldn't burn her is because he was given birth from the same fire that refused to burn her. Unless she was burned in some other way that I am not remembering?

how can it be a special occasion? We now have two canon sources which state she was unburned by fire. And the show added two more.

I think maybe at one GRRM meant it that way, but it has changed. As always, GRRM's journey evolves as he writes. He knows the destination, not necessarily how he is going to get there.

 

[Pollux]

Well it has to be genetic, right? I mean I doubt they'll say genetics in the series - they don't know about genetics in that manner - but we know, for example, Viserys wasn't immune to fire.

So far Dany has withstood the flames multiple times now... maybe though this only happens when she exerts a certain force of will. A personal magic of some sort.

And if you consider the show with GRRM approval, she was unburnt by the seering hot bath too and the hot dragon eggs

Kind of hard to say

No, I know they won't go into genetics in the series, but the series is realistic enough for us to be able to come to these kind of conclusions. This shit isn't Harry Potter. There are seemingly random events that occur, but we KNOW that they happen for a reason.

Thats one of the reasons I like these books.

 

[Basileus777]

I hope GRRM clarifies what Targaryens are immune to since some have died from sickness.

Who says any are really immune to sickness? We don't have any reliable source for this in the books. The Great Spring Sickness wiped out half the line of succession.

how can it be a special occasion? We now have two canon sources which state she was unburned by fire. And the show added two more.

The show shouldn't really count, they are going to simply stuff there for the TV audience.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

GRRM stated it was, but as we've seen before he goes back on his words a lot.

Words are wind, indeed.

This is a good thing, in my opinion. He's done a great job making shit up as he's come along so far, and I don't think that skill will fade any time soon. Hell, he started the series with just the first dire wolf chapter, without any of the seven kingdoms, or anything else. He's done a great job flying by the seat of his pants without making anything seem too contrived.

 

[sazabirules]

Who says any are really immune to sickness? We don't have any reliable source for this in the books. The Great Spring Sickness wiped out half the line of succession.

I just brought it up because I thought I read people were speculating Tyrion was a Targ earlier in this thread and used him not getting greyscale to back the immunity theory.

 

[Veelk]

how can it be a special occasion? We now have two canon sources which state she was unburned by fire. And the show added two more.

I think maybe at one GRRM meant it that way, but it has changed. As always, GRRM's journey evolves as he writes. He knows the destination, not necessarily how he is going to get there.

The way it can be a special occasion is that it's magic. It's fire that took life from MMD, Dany's unborn child and Drogo and placed it into the dragons. Dragons are creatures of magic, and they have very strong ties with the Targaryens. It doesn't seem to be unreasonable to me that the magic fire that dragons use (and how could their fire be anything but magic?) would be similarly harmless to a Targaryen like Dany is, but normal fire would be...well, normal fire, and would burn her like any other.

 

[Basileus777]

I just brought it up because I thought I read people were speculating Tyrion was a Targ earlier in this thread and used him not getting greyscale to reinforce the immunity theory.

That's a bit of circular logic though. You can't say Tyrion is a Targ because he didn't get greyscale and Targs are immune to disease because Tyrion didn't get infected.

 

[ItAintEasyBeinCheesy]

how can it be a special occasion? We now have two canon sources which state she was unburned by fire. And the show added two more.

I think maybe at one GRRM meant it that way, but it has changed. As always, GRRM's journey evolves as he writes. He knows the destination, not necessarily how he is going to get there.

She was burned by Drogon's flames, like the first time her hair burned away again. At the start of her last chapter it says

"Her skin was pink and tender, and a pale milky fluid was leaking from her cracked palms, but her burns were healing."

Might be dragon flames or she got Drogon's blood on her.

 

[sazabirules]

That's a bit of circular logic though. You can't say Tyrion is a Targ because he didn't get greyscale and Targs are immune to disease because Tyrion didn't get infected.

I'm not saying I actually believe either of those. I thought they were worth discussing and both had been mentioned before in the thread.

 

[Pollux]

I'm not saying I actually believe either of those. I thought they were worth discussing.

Didn't a lot of Targs die of a plague or am i just remembering wrong?

 

[Basileus777]

I'm not saying I actually believe either of those. I thought they were worth discussing.

Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as combative. It is worth discussing.

Didn't a lot of Targs die of a plague or am i just remembering wrong?

Yes. Between the Hedge Knight and the Sworn Sword, a bunch of Targs die from a disease called the Great Spring Sickness. If there is an immunity to disease, it must apply to a select group of Targs.

 

[gburgess10]

She doesn't know who to trust. She is constantly going back and forth in her head about almost all the people she has besides her due to her prophecy. But she has to trust SOME people, and as a child she keeps making the wrong choices. This is logical. She is a child and completely ignorant of the world.




Like I said, she had no other choice. The choice between letting Drogon die and letting Drogon not die = NO CHOICE.

And you're wrong, gburgess10. He DID burn her. We have Barristan's own account that she had flames licking on her skin. She just remained unburnt because, as we know, fire doesn't cause her physical damage like so many others. She is the blood of the dragon.

And even above and beyond your theory is wrong. Drogon is consistently described as the most wild of her three dragons. In fact, the only reason he is free is because unlike the other two he was unable to be locked up.

So not only did she scold her wildest and most dangerous dragon; not only did she ride her largest dragon; not only did she do this while having his flames lick her face; she did it by dominating him with her whip.

It took immense strength of will to be able to even ride him and, again, demonstrates you pretty much have a farcical reading of the book. You were either skimming or you simply do not pay close attention to detail.



Of course. That's the point... This is not Harry Potter. In this grim reality, there are real consequences when you deal with things you do not understand. Dany ignorantly thinks that these are her children. Yet they are monsters who eat children and kill people beyond command. Taming them is immensely difficult, and we have accounts of dragons who killed their riders and tamers.

All your complaints are just comical screeds that are meant for some other books. So far, everything is -exactly- in keeping with the world GRRM has made. If you liked it before, you should like it after. If you didn't like these aspects before, you won't like it now.

Dany's immunity to heat/fire is only active in certain situations. Throughout the novel she complains of the heat of Mereen, and sweats as well- she can likely be burned with fire. Throughout the fighting pits chapter she complains of the unbearable heat.


She again complains of heat in the final chapter on her trek along the river.

In fact, she is afraid of being burned when she confronts Drogon:

If I run from him, he will burn me and devour me.

She is afraid he can burn her and kill her.

He shot fire at her, but she ducked under it and dodged it- And in the final chapter she mentions all it did was burn her hair- and touch her no where else, since she ducked under it.


If she had taken a full on blast like Quentyn, I'm sure she would be roast Dany.


Otherwise, we will have to agree to disagree.


Just remember to read a bit cynically when Tyrion steps in and conveniently solves everything for her, as apparently only especially intelligent people can handle the game of thrones even moderately well.