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[Pollux]

Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as combative. It is worth discussing.


Yes. Between the Hedge Knight and the Sworn Sword, a bunch of Targs die from a disease called the Great Spring Sickness.

Ok, so we can assume that the resistance to disease would be a recessive trait, much like immunity to fire, or ability to train dragons (potential ability). So if possible Tyrion could have that recessive trait, we know nothing about his immunity of fire. Dany may not have that immunity do to her potentially having disease at the end of ADWD.

 

[gburgess10]

Ok, so we can assume that the resistance to disease would be a recessive trait, much like immunity to fire, or ability to train dragons (potential ability). So if possible Tyrion could have that recessive trait, we know nothing about his immunity of fire. Dany may not have that immunity do to her potentially having disease at the end of ADWD.

Tyrion's Targaryen heritage is far from confirmed yet. It could be GRRM screwing with us with a red herring, like Jon's mother being from The Sisters.

 

[Pollux]

Tyrion's Targaryen heritage is far from confirmed yet. It could be GRRM screwing with us with a red herring, like Jon's mother being from The Sisters.

Oh I know, I'm just saying that IF he were then....see above. But I agree I doubt he's a Targ, but with the Aerys/Joanna all but confirmed it is a possible.

 

[Veelk]

Ok, so we can assume that the resistance to disease would be a recessive trait, much like immunity to fire, or ability to train dragons (potential ability). So if possible Tyrion could have that recessive trait, we know nothing about his immunity of fire. Dany may not have that immunity do to her potentially having disease at the end of ADWD.

I do not see the point in applying realistic genetics when the genetic trait in question is something like immunity to fire. I'm sure there is a reason why some Targaryens have these traits or not, but I'd think it has to do with more of ones mindset or actions than anything else. They knew Viserys was no dragon long before the entire fire ordeal, for example.

He shot fire at her, but she ducked under it and dodged it- And in the final chapter she mentions all it did was burn her hair- and touch her no where else, since she ducked under it.

If the fire is close enough to burn the hair off her head, then it's more than close enough to burn her. Yet she wasn't, so she's immune to it. Again, I think it has to do with more actions and mindset than genetic ability. The dragon doesn't run. If she ran, she would not have been the blood of the dragon, and she would have been roasted. But she didn't, so she's immune.

 

[cubicle47b]

Dany tried to avoid war and actions like deceiving/murdering all the masters in the city or their children. She wanted her nice peaceful city to rule justly and made sacrifices including getting in bed with people she didn't trust to do it. Daario was pure escapism. For what she was trying to do, she didn't make horrible decisions but they obviously weren't the right decisions (fire and blood).

edit: I think Barristan actually does a good job of what Dany is trying to do in his chapters. He's not willing to do what the Shavepate suggests (who has ideas similar to Tywins) but realizes he has to get his hands dirty.

Dany's dragons are monsters but she does have a link with them (Viserion looking for her when Quentyn tried to tame one comes to mind and Drogon coming when called at the end). It seemed in the last chapter, after she realized that she'd betrayed them by locking them up (or trying to lock them up) and was steering Drogon with her hands and feet that she had better control over him.

 

[sazabirules]

If a potential immunity/fire resistance does exist for the Targaryens, maybe the trait has something to do with them having the madness or not.

 

[cubicle47b]

Her hair is burned off and she has burns on her hands at least. I don't think the Targaryens have any special immunity to disease or fire.

 

[tokkun]

No I thought that the MMD betrayal had taught her not to trust the people she "saves."

Why would you possibly think that? She frequently shows that she has great trust in the freedmen. When she is attacked by the Titan's Bastard, it happens because she is riding among them with little guard. Then later, she rides among them when they are dying from the flux. Gray Worm and Missandei are two of her most trusted servants.

The point that the book really drills in is that Dany is transfixed by the prophecies that have been presented to her. She doesn't obsess over MMD, she obsesses over the 3 Betrayals prophesy, and more on the ones to come than the ones that have already happened. And she only really starts distrusting Shavepate after she gets the prophesy from Quaith about the perfumed seneschal.

 

[Veelk]

To further bash in the point, even though MMD betrayed her, most of the people she saves are greatful and loyal to her, like Missandei or Grey Worm. She even comments on this somewhere, how she cannot simply go trusting no one because that's insane. The betrayal simply made her more cautious, which is reasonable. If it went like the way he is implying it should have, that betrayal would have turned Dany into Cersei, basically.

 

[cubicle47b]

And she only really starts distrusting Shavepate after she gets the prophesy from Quaith about the perfumed seneschal.

Just a small correction. Reznak is the seneschal. Skahaz is the Shavepate and he's loyal to her.

 

[gburgess10]

Why would you possibly think that? She frequently shows that she has great trust in the freedmen. When she is attacked by the Titan's Bastard, it happens because she is riding among them with little guard. Then later, she rides among them when they are dying from the flux. Gray Worm and Missandei are two of her most trusted servants.

The point that the book really drills in is that Dany is transfixed by the prophecies that have been presented to her. She doesn't obsess over MMD, she obsesses over the 3 Betrayals prophesy, and more on the ones to come than the ones that have already happened. And she only really starts distrusting Shavepate after she gets the prophesy from Quaith about the perfumed seneschal.

There's a significant difference between freedmen and MMD. There's great similarities between MMD and the Mereenese Masters.

The freedmen were slaves, with no hope of the future before release.

To MMD, Dany was the wife of the person who caused her whole village to be destroyed and enslaved.

To the Mereenese, Dany is the person who crucified their leaders, and destroyed their economy/culture.

Edit: Also it is clearly inadvisable to trust the Mereenese because they are killing the freedmen- who only stay free while she remains in power. The freedmen are acceptable to trust- she is their only savior. The Mereenese all want her gone and would have been better off without her.

To Tokkun: The perfumed seneschal was Reznak (who she completely distrusted after Quaithe's warnings), not the Shavepate (whom she trusted somewhat)- you are confusing the two. She dismissed the Shavepate after her marriage because Hizdhar hated him.

 

[Veelk]

There's a significant difference between freedmen and MMD. There's great similarities between MMD and the Mereenese Masters.

The freedmen were slaves, with no hope of the future before release.

To MMD, Dany was the wife of the person who caused her whole village to be destroyed and enslaved.

To the Mereenese, Dany is the person who crucified their leaders, and destroyed their economy/culture.

Edit: Also it is clearly inadvisable to trust the Mereenese because they are killing the freedmen- who only stay free while she remains in power. The freedmen are acceptable to trust- she is their only savior. The Mereenese all want her gone and would have been better off without her.

To Tokkun: The perfumed seneschal was Reznak (who she completely distrusted after Quaithe's warnings), not the Shavepate (whom she trusted somewhat)- you are confusing the two. She dismissed the Shavepate after her marriage because Hizdhar hated him.

Nah. Plenty of the freedmen were quite unhappy with her as well. So many wanted to be slaves again because they had a more comfortable life there. It is not only the rulers that wanted to take back Meereen. There are plenty of people who were unhappy with her rule regardless of her policy towards slaves, simply because they consider her a barbarian conquerer. There isn't as much difference between the two as you are making it out to be. There are people on both sides that want to kill her and people on both sides that want her to rule.

 

[KingK]

Ok, I just finished the book. Took me longer than I'd hoped, but I had a busy couple of weeks.

anyway, WHAT THE FUCK?! Is Jon really dead? I'm fucking pissed. I knew something wasn't right when Ghost was freaking out and he had him wait in the room. It was the same thing at the Red Wedding with Robb and Grey Wind. What was the point of Jon's entire character arc if he just ends up dying like that? Fuck that shit. I put the book down all day after I read that this afternoon and just now went back to finish up the book.

More impressions.
-All chapters from the North were great.
-As someone who fucking hated Theon in CoK, I was very pleasantly surprised to find that his chapters here were some of my favorites in the book. His whole arc was wonderfully done. I actually felt sorry for him, and loved how regretful he seemed when he mentioned that he should have been with Robb and died with him at the Red Wedding, and how he wanted to be a Stark.
-Disappointed that Bran only got 3 chapters (good as they were) and that Davos ended before actually going to get Rickon. I'm glad Rickon is at least mentioned though. The place he's at is Skagos right?
-What's the verdict on whether or not Stannis is really dead?

-Loved the introduction of Aegon and Griff. He's clearly doomed, but I love that they're actually fucking shit up over in Westeros now.
-I liked how Tyrion's chapters painted us a detailed image of the Free Cities area, but they seemed a little too frequent and slow moving. I also don't like Penny. If Tyrion fucks her, I'll cringe.
-I've always been one to say that Dany was overrated, and my opinion of her didn't really change much this book. I enjoyed her chapters enough, but always found myself wanted to get back to the North whenever I would reach one of her chapters. I also have the same complaint about her as with Tyrion, too many chapters for too little plot development.
-Barristan the Bold is awesome. That's all I really have to say about him.
-I really liked Quentyn, and it sucks that he died. I was really hoping for him to be one of the dragon riders. But of course, since I was hoping for it, GRRM had to kill him off.
-Victarion is a dim-witted asshole. I really hope he doesn't get a dragon. He had my least favorite chapters in the book, but they weren't really bad. I just hate the character.

Also severely disappointed in the lack of Arya throughout Feast and Dance. She's my favorite character and she got 5 chapters throughout the two books
Well, I only finished Feast 2 months before Dance came out, and I thought those two months were hell. Now I have to start the real wait...

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I really don't see how anyone can think that Jon is truly dead (as in he won't appear in any form anymore).

 

[Pkaz01]

I don't think Jon will be dead but he will lose his POV when he returns. How many kings have had POVs? Another reason why I think Dany will never rule in Westeros. Cersei got a POV but at that point she was hardly powerful and her downfall came quickly.

 

[Emerson]

favorite character and she got 5 chapters throughout the two books
Well, I only finished Feast 2 months before Dance came out, and I thought those two months were hell. Now I have to start the real wait...

It'll be brutal, but The Howlands of Winter will be worth it in a few years.

 

[Paches]

Jon will be revived somehow by Melisandre as per the prophecy IMO.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

New lingo:

"must needs" 22 occurrences
"me and mine" (and variations) 6 occurrences
"sire"/"grandsire" 38 occurrences
"mine own" 25 occurrences
"words are wind" 13 occurrences

Lingo from previous books:

"mummer" (and variations) 66 occurrences
"would that I could" 5 occurrences
"nuncle" 7 occurrences
"jape" 44 occurrences

Anyone notice any other non-character specific phrases that kept reoccurring throughout the book?

 

[sazabirules]

How many times did "it is known" come up? I've always hated that phrase.

 

[tokkun]

Jon will be revived somehow by Melisandre as per the prophecy IMO.

Or come back as Coldhands Jr.

New lingo:
"must needs" 22 occurrences
"me and mine" (and variations) 6 occurrences
"sire"/"grandsire" 38 occurrences
"mine own" 25 occurrences
"words are wind" 13 occurrences
Lingo from previous books:
"mummer" (and variations) 66 occurrences
"would that I could" 5 occurrences
"nuncle" 7 occurrences
"jape" 44 occurrences
Anyone notice any other non-character specific phrases that kept reoccurring throughout the book?

You sure that "must needs", "mine own", and "words are wind" are new? I feel pretty sure they've appeared in previous books.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

How many times did "it is known" come up? I've always hated that phrase.

Only six times in this book. I think its usage peaked in ACOK or ASOS. Luckily it's isolated to the Dothraki. Unluckily for us, there will probably be lots more Dothraki in the next book.

 

[Basileus777]

Looking at the spreadsheet posted earlier, it does seem like Martin stepped up his use of the faux-medieval terms in AFFC and ADWD. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. The one that bothers me is when he uses wroth as a noun, which is just bad grammar.

 

[sazabirules]

Only six times in this book. I think its usage peaked in ACOK or ASOS. Luckily it's isolated to the Dothraki. Unluckily for us, there will probably be lots more Dothraki in the next book.

It just bothers me when it is said because it makes me think they are mindless zombies when the Dothraki among Dany don't say anything else.

 

[KingK]

So most people don't think Jon is dead (or will stay dead at least)? I really hope that's the case. He's my favorite character other than Arya.

And does anyone really think Stannis is dead?

 

[Dresden]

And does anyone really think Stannis is dead?

No. They probably didn't even fight.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Or come back as Coldhands Jr.



You sure that "must needs", "mine own", and "words are wind" are new? I feel pretty sure they've appeared in previous books.

Shit, you're right. "mine own" debuted in A Clash of Kings where it was used just three times, then 21 times in A Storm of Swords, and 22 times in A Feast for Crows.

You're right about "must needs", too: it was used six times in A Game of Thrones, three times in A Clash for Kings, ten times in A Storm of Swords, and twelve times in A Feast for Crows.

"words are wind", too: it was used once in A Storm of Swords, then six times in A Feast for Crows.

Interesting!

 

[Pollux]

What exactly is a nuncle?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

So most people don't think Jon is dead (or will stay dead at least)? I really hope that's the case. He's my favorite character other than Arya.

And does anyone really think Stannis is dead?

I seriously doubt it. I'm pretty sure that something will become of that banker.

 

[Harry Potter]

What exactly is a nuncle?

I think its some stupid wait of saying "my uncle" or "mine uncle".

 

[Deleted member 17706]

What exactly is a nuncle?

A corrupted shortening of "mine uncle" or "an uncle". Apparently it was used relatively commonly long ago. It appears in Shakespeare's writing, at least.

 

[sazabirules]

What exact page does the "The North remembers" line come up?

 

[PhoenixDark]

And does anyone really think Stannis is dead?

No way. Not only is he prophesied to meet Dany, Ramsay's letter is too ridiculous to believe. Why would Stannis pursue battle with Fake Arya in his possession? He marched to Winterfell in order to capture her; also, if Ramsay defeated Stannis, why is he asking for his bride back. I think Stannis will retreat, either to the Wall or to one of the castles in Ironmen control. Also from a narrative perspective, I see no point in the banker arriving in Stannis' camp only for everyone to be killed off screen. That would make no sense.

Perhaps Ramsay feels Jon is vulnerable on the Wall, and thinks the letter will either provoke him to march for Winterfell or be betrayed by his men, who will no longer fear repercussions from Stannis' men.

 

[KingK]

I seriously doubt it. I'm pretty sure that something will become of that banker.

Yeah, I doubt it too, but I still think Stannis is doomed eventually, and it would be interesting if GRRM actually had a big character like that killed "off-screen" stay dead.

Looking back at the book, I'm still shocked at how amazing Theon's chapters were. He was right behind Damphair as my most hated POV character in the series before this book, but goddam I looked forward to every one of his chapters and they were, imo, the most consistently high quality in the book. I actually can't wait to see where his story goes.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

What exact page does the "The North remembers" line come up?

Twice at the 40% mark (Davos) and once at the 62% mark (The Ghost of Winterfell).

Yeah, I doubt it too, but I still think Stannis is doomed eventually, and it would be interesting if GRRM actually had a big character like that killed "off-screen" stay dead.

Looking back at the book, I'm still shocked at how amazing Theon's chapters were. He was right behind Damphair as my most hated POV character in the series before this book, but goddam I looked forward to every one of his chapters and they were, imo, the most consistently high quality in the book. I actually can't wait to see where his story goes.

No doubt Stannis is doomed eventually. He's a fucking prick, and his wife is a terrible bitch, so I look forward to their downfall. Once the Targaryen's are back in Westeros, he doesn't even have a valid claim. I only root for him ever because his enemies (the Lannisters and Boltons) are even worse.

 

[KingK]

What exact page does the "The North remembers" line come up?

page 390 in the hardcover in the Davos chapter. I think it comes up again in a Theon chapter, but I don't remember which one.

edit: Also, is Manderly still alive? Frey slashed his neck, but Bolton talked to him right afterward as if he were fine...

I loved what he said right before getting attacked to. Little Walder had been killed and the Frey accused him and he said something along the lines of "I confess only that I did not know this boy well. However, it may have been for the best that he die young, else he would have grown up to be a Frey." I was laughing to myself then read that Frey cut his neck and was like "Oh shit!"

 

[Piecake]

Yeah, I doubt it too, but I still think Stannis is doomed eventually, and it would be interesting if GRRM actually had a big character like that killed "off-screen" stay dead.

Looking back at the book, I'm still shocked at how amazing Theon's chapters were. He was right behind Damphair as my most hated POV character in the series before this book, but goddam I looked forward to every one of his chapters and they were, imo, the most consistently high quality in the book. I actually can't wait to see where his story goes.

Sadly, I do not see a similar treatment happening to Damphair or Victarion. While loathsome and detestable, at least Theon was a well-developed, fleshed out character. His uncles, not so much.

 

[sazabirules]

Twice at the 40% mark (Davos) and once at the 62% mark (The Ghost of Winterfell).

page 390 in the hardcover in the Davos chapter. I think it comes up again in a Theon chapter, but I don't remember which one.

Thanks. I had trouble finding exactly where it was when Lord Manderly talked to Davos. He was the biggest badass in the book. Lady Dustin was the other person who said it.

He is alive. I think he just had an enormous chin and only part of it was slashed.

 

[KingK]

Sadly, I do not see a similar treatment happening to Damphair or Victarion. While loathsome and detestable, at least Theon was a well-developed, fleshed out character. His uncles, not so much.

Yeah, Victarion and Damphair are both just such bland, boring, one-dimensional characters who are also assholes. I really, really hope that Victarion doesn't get a dragon. Unfortunately, he seems to be Dany's type (an alpha male asshole who likes to kill things), and he has a horn and a red priest with him.

 

[gburgess10]

Nah. Plenty of the freedmen were quite unhappy with her as well. So many wanted to be slaves again because they had a more comfortable life there. It is not only the rulers that wanted to take back Meereen. There are plenty of people who were unhappy with her rule regardless of her policy towards slaves, simply because they consider her a barbarian conquerer. There isn't as much difference between the two as you are making it out to be. There are people on both sides that want to kill her and people on both sides that want her to rule.

Those that wanted to sell themselves back into slavery were allowed to do so- with Dany taking a cut of the profits. Did you forget this?

Could name any notable freedmen/incidences with freedmen having problems with her?

The only ones I can recall is when the Astapori envoy spat in her face- and rightly so. She was being squeamish and hoping for a peace- almost like she was Lysa Tully sitting in the Vale. The war would not reach her impregnable fortress as long as she personally did not get involved in the war at large. I would have spat in her face twice if I were the envoy.

Did she think that the Yunkai'i would sit by idly where they were after taking care of Astapor?

I'm pretty sure many readers agreed with Dany as she narrated her reasons for not doing anything, but I was shaking my head.

That was 100% Lysa Tully right there, and I'm sure all of us were wondering how much better the war would have turned out if Lysa had rallied her forces to Robb.

Yeah, Victarion and Damphair are both just such bland, boring, one-dimensional characters who are also assholes. I really, really hope that Victarion doesn't get a dragon. Unfortunately, he seems to be Dany's type (an alpha male asshole who likes to kill things), and he has a horn and a red priest with him.

That priest definitely hates Victarion and is only using him. Don't you remember when he told him his Drowned God was a demon, almost a brother to the Other? Rely on him failing in the end. The prophecy he told him about the stuff he saw in the fire was delightfully vague enough to hint that Victarion's fate might not be the success he thinks it to be.

 

[Piecake]

Yeah, Victarion and Damphair are both just such bland, boring, one-dimensional characters who are also assholes. I really, really hope that Victarion doesn't get a dragon. Unfortunately, he seems to be Dany's type (an alpha male asshole who likes to kill things), and he has a horn and a red priest with him.

I dont think he is getting a dragon. Basically, its in how the horn works. The man who blows it doesnt control the dragon. That man dies. Well, then who does? Why would Victarion gain control over a dragon by having someone else blow on it? Because he owns it? I dont think so, and I don't think dragons or magic really care about man's worldly possessions.

I think when he blows it, Dany will gain complete control over Drogon, and either that horn will be blown again twice so the other two dragons find their buddies, or the horn will only need to be blown once and once the dragons meet their partners, they will be bonded to them

 

[KingK]

So who do we think gets the other two dragons then? I was really hoping for Quentyn to get one, but he's out now.

I think Tyrion is still one of the most likely candidates, but I'm not sure who the third would be, if not Victarion.

 

[Dresden]

I hope all the dragons die.

 

[gburgess10]

I dont think he is getting a dragon. Basically, its in how the horn works. The man who blows it doesnt control the dragon. That man dies. Well, then who does? Why would Victarion gain control over a dragon by having someone else blow on it? Because he owns it? I dont think so, and I don't think dragons or magic really care about man's worldly possessions.

I think when he blows it, Dany will gain complete control over Drogon, and either that horn will be blown again twice so the other two dragons find their buddies, or the horn will only need to be blown once and once the dragons meet their partners, they will be bonded to them

The lungs of the person who blew the horn were all burned (and died due to the burns): Perhaps a Targ with fire immunity can blow the horn.

Or perhaps with some blood of the person who will control the dragon smeared on the horn, another horn blower can enslave a dragon for that someone else.

I hope all the dragons die.

Is this because of the hatred of the magic coming back into the series, or what?

They're beasts when you get down to it- can can be good, or evil. Depends on how they're treated/raised/controlled.

 

[ItAintEasyBeinCheesy]

Where's a really good world map?

 

[Piecake]

The lungs of the person who blew the horn were all burned (and died due to the burns): Perhaps a Targ with fire immunity can blow the horn.

Or perhaps with some blood of the person who will control the dragon smeared on the horn, another horn blower can enslave a dragon for that someone else.

Was blood mentioned by Euron in AFFC or something? Or is that just a theory? I wouldnt be surprised if a dragon Targ is immune to the horn and thats how the 3 dragons are bonded though

 

[KingK]

Was blood mentioned by Euron in AFFC or something? Or is that just a theory? I wouldnt be surprised if a dragon Targ is immune to the horn and thats how the 3 dragons are bonded though

Blood was mentioned by the Red Priest on Victarion's ship in Dance when he read the Valyrian text on the horn.

 

[Basileus777]

Where a really good world map?

Here is the only one I've seen that uses the ADWD maps.

 

[gburgess10]

Was blood mentioned by Euron in AFFC or something? Or is that just a theory? I wouldnt be surprised if a dragon Targ is immune to the horn and thats how the 3 dragons are bonded though

The blood smear thing is just a theory of mine.

I mean how else would someone who is going to die by blowing the horn bind the dragons' for a particular someone else? Blood magic/ties seem to me to be the best way to get this done.

Otherwise, really, who is going to will dragons to bind to someone who forces them to blow the horn and die.

 

[cubicle47b]

The only ones I can recall is when the Astapori envoy spat in her face- and rightly so. She was being squeamish and hoping for a peace- almost like she was Lysa Tully sitting in the Vale. The war would not reach her impregnable fortress as long as she personally did not get involved in the war at large. I would have spat in her face twice if I were the envoy.

Shaking my head at the "I would have spat in her face twice if I were the envoy" part.

The difference between Dany and Lysa Tully was Lysa managed to not get involved in the war but if she had moving her army out of the Vale wouldn't have ended with her losing the Vale.

 

[ItAintEasyBeinCheesy]

Here is the only one I've seen that uses the ADWD maps.

Yeah had that one but not that size, thanks. Dunno why they left Westeros blank though.