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[thatbox]

I'll agree that Jon's reasons for breaking the oath because Ramsey calls him out is kind of weak. He lets his whole family fight in a war/get captured/killed and he doesn't do anything, then he gets trolled and decides "fuck it".

Arya.

 

[Famassu]

I'll agree that Jon's reasons for breaking the oath because Ramsey calls him out is kind of weak. He lets his whole family fight in a war/get captured/killed and he doesn't do anything, then he gets trolled and decides "fuck it".

Saving Arya and possibly the Night's Watch aren't good reasons?

Besides, he DOES decide to leave when Robb goes off to war. When they die, he can do nothing because he's out beyond the Wall and he only hears about the news about the Red Wedding way later, when he's got way more important things to do (what's with the Wildlings attacking and stuff) than going off to save/avenge people that have already been dead for a while. There's always been a reason he has stayed (usually due to other people than him), now he doesn't.

 

[FutureZombie]

Saving Arya and possibly the Night's Watch aren't good reasons?

Besides, he DOES decide to leave when Robb goes off to war. When they die, he can do nothing because he's out beyond the Wall and he only hears about the news about the Red Wedding way later, when he's got way more important things to do (what's with the Wildlings attacking and stuff) than going off to save/avenge people that have already been dead for a while. There's always been a reason he has stayed (usually due to other people than him), now he doesn't.

He's not saving Arya now. Ramsay says he wants his bride back, so Jon knows he doesn't have Arya.

 

[Dares]

I mean it was a really brutal scene "For the Watch" but he didn't really think it over. It is cool because next book he might be released in a sense to go do some other stuff.

Maybe he just let too much of the other stuff go and this was the straw type deal.

 

[FutureZombie]

Also, if he's so worried about the Others, he should never leave the wall.

I dunno... Jon's chapters were just so disappointing. It took like 8 chapters to get the wildlings to the other side of the wall, and there's still a bunch out there. It would have been better if all the wildlings at Hardhome had been killed by the Others. The first prologue of the series was the Others. Their presence needs to be felt more.

 

[Dartastic]

Yeah just like Brienne and Davos before him. When GRRM kills off a character he confirms it beyond a reasonable doubt. Jon's coming back one way or another.

...truth. I dunno. It seems pretty obvious, butttt... People do love the shit out of Jon, and it does seem very weird to kill him off now, for realz. Plus it just seems really weird that he decided to suddenly go down to Winterfell. It just seems like an odd choice. Doesn't really fit.

 

[sazabirules]

What do you guys think the point of the prologue was? I thought it was fairly useless. The only thing I liked was that we were given some rules about skin-changing and can look back and see that Bran broke at least one of the rules. It could also be used as foreshadowing for Jon Snow's fate.

 

[Dartastic]

What do you guys think the point of the prologue was? I thought it was fairly useless. We know about the threat of the Others/wights already. The only thing I liked was that we were given some rules about skin-changing and can look back and see that Bran broke at least one of the rules.

Wait what? Where was any of this in the prologue? Also, what are these rules that Bran broke? How the fuck have i missed this stuffff

 

[sazabirules]

Wait what? Where was any of this in the prologue? Also, what are these rules that Bran broke? How the fuck have i missed this stuffff

Well it was more like a code of conduct of what warging was not supposed to be used for. Bran warged into a human which was considered an abomination.

To eat of human meat, to mate as wolf with wolf, and to seize the body of another man were all considered an abomination.

 

[Dartastic]

Oh yeaaaaaaaaah. Warging into Hodor. Forgot about the whole abomination thing. ...I didn't really think much of that though; it seemed like they weren't really laws set in stone or anything, so I just forgot about them.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

What do you guys think the point of the prologue was? I thought it was fairly useless. The only thing I liked was that we were given some rules about skin-changing and can look back and see that Bran broke at least one of the rules. It could also be used as foreshadowing for Jon Snow's fate.

I think it was mainly used as a setup for Stark related warging and Jon's probably temporary transition to Ghost after getting knifed.

 

[sazabirules]

Oh yeaaaaaaaaah. Warging into Hodor. Forgot about the whole abomination thing. ...I didn't really think much of that though; it seemed like they weren't really laws set in stone or anything.

It was just funny reading that Bran was doing everything that Haggon said not to. I think he also ate human meat as a wolf but I may be wrong.

 

[Famassu]

He's not saving Arya now. Ramsay says he wants his bride back, so Jon knows he doesn't have Arya.

Just because Ramsay doesn't have "Arya" doesn't mean he's not a thread to her. If you didn't notice, ever after Melisandre brought up Arya arriving to the wall, Jon was obsessing about her. And now he hears she has fled Winterfell with a crazy-as-shit person after her.

Also, if he's so worried about the Others, he should never leave the wall.

He believes he has done everything he can for the Wall (what's with allying themselves with Stannis, helping Wildlings so that they'd have that many LESS wights to fight against when the Others DO attack, manning more of the castles along the wall with the help of those wildlings, taking the loan so they wouldn't starve etc.).

And while the Others don't attack the Wall, it does seem like they are getting closer, with them beginning to attack the large group of wildlings still beyond the Wall.

Maybe he just let too much of the other stuff go and this was the straw type deal.

And yes, THIS. I've pointed it out before, but Maester Aemon talked to Jon all the way back in the first book of how pretty much everyone might get news from the south of something that makes them want to leave. And for the first few times they might resist, yet then, the next one after those or the next one after that might break them and make them desert.

 

[FutureZombie]

Just because Ramsay doesn't have "Arya" doesn't mean he's not a thread to her. If you didn't notice, ever after Melisandre brought up Arya arriving to the wall, Jon was obsessing about her. And now he hears she has fled Winterfell with a crazy-as-shit person after her.

I was confused about the whole Arya sighting in Melisandre's flames and her plot with Mance. If Melisandre thought the girl on the grey horse was Arya, why did she send Mance to Winterfell?

 

[Deleted member 1235]

I just finished DWD, and I'm wondering why are people still talking about Jon? I mean, it's fairly obvious that he's dead. He betrayed the watch, and had four daggers buried in him. Soooooooo......

people are hoping for a benjen style 'I'm your monster bran' type thing to occur I guess.

 

[Famassu]

I was confused about the whole Arya sighting in Melisandre's flames and her plot with Mance. If Melisandre thought the girl on the grey horse was Arya, why did she send Mance to Winterfell?

Maybe to ensure she'd arrive to the Wall in good health instead of alone and probably half-dead? She wanted to make Jon trust her, saving Arya would probably have done that.

Or not, my memory of all that is a bit vague, I don't remember if they stated any specific reasons to send Mance there.

 

[FutureZombie]

Maybe to ensure she'd arrive to the Wall in good health instead of alone and probably half-dead? She wanted to make Jon trust her, saving Arya would probably have done that.

Or not, my memory of all that is a bit vague, I don't remember if they stated any specific reasons to send Mance there.

I can see why she would send Mance out to find "Arya" in the woods, but since "Arya" was already fleeing her wedding, Mance would have no reason to go to Winterfell. It doesn't add up.

Mance told Melisandre that he had a little ploy in mind. I assume the ploy was to dress as a bard. But that had nothing to do with saving Arya if she is already out in the woods on horseback. The only possible explanation is that Melisandre lied to Jon about sending Mance to get Arya. Maybe she wanted Mance to start murdering soldiers at Winterfell to get the Boltons, the Freys, and the Manderlys to start fighting each other. But why would she do that if she wanted Jon to believe in her powers?

 

[Freshmaker]

Lol...no one hates Danys chapters more than me, but skipping an entire major characters POVs?? Wtf.

No loss.

My ass hurts.
I don't like killing.
I like superfical men with bling.
No burninate! No!
Got the shits.
Horsemeat.

Dany's chapters.

 

[FutureZombie]

No loss.

My ass hurts.
I don't like killing.
I like superfical men with bling.
No burninate! No!
Got the shits.
Horsemeat.

Dany's chapters.

You forgot Barristan's snide remarks about sellswords, Irri and Jhiqui arguing, and Strong Belwas doing Strong Belwas things. Dany is a boring character, but she has some good characters surrounding her.

 

[zeroshiki]

I can see why she would send Mance out to find "Arya" in the woods, but since "Arya" was already fleeing her wedding, Mance would have no reason to go to Winterfell. It doesn't add up.

Mance told Melisandre that he had a little ploy in mind. I assume the ploy was to dress as a bard. But that had nothing to do with saving Arya if she is already out in the woods on horseback. The only possible explanation is that Melisandre lied to Jon about sending Mance to get Arya. Maybe she wanted Mance to start murdering soldiers at Winterfell to get the Boltons, the Freys, and the Manderlys to start fighting each other. But why would she do that if she wanted Jon to believe in her powers?

I think Arya escaping from the wedding wasn't fait accompli. For all Mel knew, it took her sending Mance out there to achieve the vision of the girl in grey riding the horse.

Plus I don't think the instructions to Mance were even that clear. It was just "get Arya Stark and bring her here" so that was the plan he came up with.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

No loss.

My ass hurts.
I don't like killing.
I like superfical men with bling.
No burninate! No!
Got the shits.
Horsemeat.

Dany's chapters.

That's about it.

 

[FutureZombie]

I think Arya escaping from the wedding wasn't fait accompli. For all Mel knew, it took her sending Mance out there to achieve the vision of the girl in grey riding the horse.

Plus I don't think the instructions to Mance were even that clear. It was just "get Arya Stark and bring her here" so that was the plan he came up with.

Then Melisandre should have been like, "Where is Mance?" when the Karstark girl showed up. Jon even says to himself that Melisandre must have another plan in mind for Mance.


Ok, here's what I think now after looking it over in the book. Melisandre knew that the only way Jon would let Mance leave the Wall is if she said he was going to save Arya. In reality, she wanted Mance to start fights at Winterfell. She lied to Jon, thinking her prophecy would still be seen as correct since she only said a grey girl on a grey horse, and not specifically "Arya."

But then... why did Mance work to save Jeyne? Dammit! Still doesn't fully work out.

 

[Freshmaker]

You forgot Barristan's snide remarks about sellswords

He got his own chapters.

Irri and Jhiqui arguing, and Strong Belwas doing Strong Belwas things. Dany is a boring character, but she has some good characters surrounding her.

What am I missing with Belwas? IIRC, Belwas slapped his gut. Then nearly died eating crickets.

Irri and Jhinqui are even worse characters than Dany.

 

[Famassu]

No loss.

My ass hurts.
I don't like killing.
I like superfical men with bling.
No burninate! No!
Got the shits.
Horsemeat.

Dany's chapters.

Hey, let's selectively oversimplify a complex character. I could do the same for the oh-so-loved characters like Tyrion from all of ASOIAF.

Bitch about Tywin
Bitch about Cersei
Fuck bitches
Bitch about being a midget
Bitch about no one loving you
Bitch, bitch, bitch bitch bitch.

Hey, isn't Tyrion such a sucky character?

Sure the teenage love stuff is a bit of a bore to read in Dany's chapters, but that's only one subplot of Dany and it's not like characters like Jon & Tyrion have been free of that kind of not-that-well-written woman-enters-the-picture chapters (that's actually 90% of ASOS for Jon). Figuring out who to trust (if anyone), trying to rule Meereen, the premonition lady paying a visit, fighting the shadow war against the Sons of the Harpy, trying to stop war with the other Free Cities, the wedding, the fight pit chapter. Plenty of interesting things happening in her chapters, despite things not going the way Dany would want them to go for the large part. I see Meereen as a necessary but not the easiest to read way of building her character. Sure, there's not that much action going on, but she has a lot of hard decisions to make and almost everyone working against her.

 

[Freyjadour]

Hey, let's selectively oversimplify a complex character. I could do the same for the oh-so-loved characters like Tyrion from all of ASOIAF.

Bitch about Tywin
Bitch about Cersei
Fuck bitches
Bitch about being a midget
Bitch about no one loving you
Bitch, bitch, bitch bitch bitch.

Hey, isn't Tyrion such a sucky character?

Sure the teenage love stuff is a bit of a bore to read in Dany's chapters, but that's only one subplot of Dany and it's not like characters like Jon & Tyrion have been free of that kind of not-that-well-written woman-enters-the-picture chapters (that's actually 90% of ASOS for Jon). Figuring out who to trust (if anyone), trying to rule Meereen, the premonition lady paying a visit, fighting the shadow war against the Sons of the Harpy, trying to stop war with the other Free Cities, the wedding, the fight pit chapter. Plenty of interesting things happening in her chapters, despite things not going the way Dany would want them to go for the large part. I see Meereen as a necessary but not the easiest to read way of building her character. Sure, there's not that much action going on, but she has a lot of hard decisions to make and almost everyone working against her.

Dany is hardly a complex character.

 

[Freshmaker]

Figuring out who to trust (if anyone), trying to rule Meereen, the premonition lady paying a visit, fighting the shadow war against the Sons of the Harpy, trying to stop war with the other Free Cities, the wedding, the fight pit chapter. Plenty of interesting things happening in her chapters, despite things not going the way Dany would want them to go for the large part.

You are interested in very different things than I am. Staying in Meereen was a disaster. That was apparent well before she made any such decision. If she really wanted things to work out, she would've named a steward and moved on. Same shit would've happened, but at least she'd then be doing something that wasn't pointless.

Now she's back to impressing the horse lords. Yay.

 

[Famassu]

You are interested in very different things than I am. Staying in Meereen was a disaster. That was apparent well before she made any such decision. If she really wanted things to work out, she would've named a steward and moved on. Same shit would've happened, but at least she'd then be doing something that wasn't pointless.

Now she's back to impressing the horse lords. Yay.

So if Tyrion ruling King's Landing in ACOK(/ASOS) and obsessing about fucking a whore are so awesome, why is Dany ruling in Meereen and obsessing about a man such a disaster and Worst Thing Ever (tm)? There are plenty of similar elements, but with Dany in a much worse situation since 1) she's inexperienced in the kind of scheming all these slavers in the Free Cities thrive in and 2) she has absolutely no allies outside the walls of Meereen and plenty of people against her inside the walls of Meereen. Sure, she ultimately kinda fails (like so many other characters in ASOIAF), but she comes off from all of it as a stronger character.

And she's now back to get a 20,000 man strong army which she can use to fuck over all the slavers. (Edit: or was it even bigger? 40,000?)

Dany is hardly a complex character.

She's more complex than a lot of the fan favorites.

 

[Freshmaker]

So if Tyrion ruling King's Landing in ACOK(/ASOS) and obsessing about fucking a whore are so awesome, why is Dany ruling in Meereen and obsessing about a man such a disaster and Worst Thing Ever (tm)? There are plenty of similar elements, but with Dany in a much worse situation since 1) she's inexperienced in the kind of scheming all these slavers in the Free Cities thrive in and 2) she has absolutely no allies outside the walls of Meereen and plenty of people against her inside the walls of Meereen.

That was why she never should've stayed.

Sure, she ultimately kinda fails (like so many other characters in ASOIAF), but she comes off from all of it as a stronger character.

Not really. Other than having a kid that will have sex with the world, she doesn't seem to have any real significance.

 

[ZephyrFate]

That was why she never should've stayed.

Not really. Other than having a kid that will have sex with the world, she doesn't seem to have any real significance.

If she has no significance, then neither does Aegon. In fact, the whole Targaryen line doesn't seem to have so much relevance anymore.

 

[Vyer]

Well it was more like a code of conduct of what warging was not supposed to be used for. Bran warged into a human which was considered an abomination.

To eat of human meat, to mate as wolf with wolf, and to seize the body of another man were all considered an abomination.

Also, doesn't Sixskins' pack now belong to one of the Stark direwolves? That seems like it may be fairly important.

 

[Famassu]

That was why she never should've stayed.

She's only, what, 15-16 years old at this point, she couldn't have known everything would go so down the shitter. And this was DEFINITELY needed. If she had gone to Westeros as she was pre-Meereen, she probably wouldn't even have made it off the ship before someone had backstabbed her. At least in Meereen she has the benefit of having all the ex-slaves loving her whereas in Westeros she's just another person wanting to sit on the Iron Throne.

Not really. Other than having a kid that will have sex with the world, she doesn't seem to have any real significance.

Yeah, it's not like she is trying to rid the world of slavery and of course she didn't bring dragons back to the world either. She has had absolutely no impact on the world whatsoever.

 

[Freshmaker]

If she has no significance, then neither does Aegon. In fact, the whole Targaryen line doesn't seem to have so much relevance anymore.

She got Dragons back into the world. That's pretty much her role. Dragons are going to be kinda important against the Other. Hopefully someone with better ideas than locking them in a hole and angsting about them will claim them.

I don't think Aegon's going to last all that long.

 

[sazabirules]

Also, doesn't Sixskins' pack now belong to one of the Stark direwolves? That seems like it may be fairly important.

Yeah I remember someone fought One Eye. I think it was Ghost.

 

[Freshmaker]

She's only, what, 15-16 years old at this point, she couldn't have known everything would go so down the shitter. And this was DEFINITELY needed. If she had gone to Westeros as she was pre-Meereen, she probably wouldn't even have made it off the ship before someone had backstabbed her. At least in Meereen she has the benefit of having all the ex-slaves loving her whereas in Westeros she's just another person wanting to sit on the Iron Throne.

Varys seems to have enough pull for that to have not been an issue.

She was held back by people she couldn't save. And mask woman's stupid riddles.

 

[sazabirules]

I can't wait for another person (Daario) to betray Dany.

 

[mcrae]

just read jons death. i fucking hate how many characters get killed off in this series.

 

[Famassu]

She got Dragons back into the world. That's pretty much her role. Dragons are going to be kinda important against the Other. Hopefully someone with better ideas than locking them in a hole and angsting about them will claim them.

I'm sure characters like Jon, Tyrion, Arya, Bran and the like would've kept the dragons free killing innocent children & other people. Come on, that's one extremely shitty argument against Dany. :|

They locked the direwolves into the weirwood in Winterfell even when they didn't actually kill anyone. It was just the sensible thing to do until she learned how to control them and besides, they weren't old enough to be used in war yet. The kind of armies marching against Meereen would've killed them, even if they'd gotten some major losses. Drogon was almost killed by a few soldiers, no need to guess the fate of the other two, smaller dragons.

Besides, by the end of ADWD, she's learned her lesson. Dragons don't plant trees. Fire & Blood. This is another reason why I think Meereen wasn't a waste. She had to learn to have a tougher skin as a ruler (she can't always please everyone) the hard way out, doing all the mistakes she did.

 

[sazabirules]

Drogon was not going to be killed by a few scrubs. She was a fool for leaving the other two locked up and not trying to work with them.

 

[Famassu]

Drogon was not going to be killed by a few scrubs. She was a fool for leaving the other two locked up and not trying to work with them.

She wanted to try rule Meereen peacefully. She was having a hard enough time with that without dragons going around flaming people to death. It was clear the dragons were growing restless and Dany was losing the little control she had had over them when they were smaller. She did what she had to do. I didn't really like it that she had to do it, but it's really not foolish at all. She couldn't go all "no, bad doggy" on them. They are wild beasts, I'd like to know how you'd have "worked with them". You don't go to a man-eating tiger and "work with them." That's what ADWD basically made the dragons into. Before they had been this easy way out of some situations and somewhat ferocious but still magical creatures. ADWD revealed the wild beast nature of them.

And even if it's not what I'd have liked to happen, putting the dragons into the pits brought us the awesome dragon tamer chapter.


While Drogon wasn't going to get killed by them, it was injured and I don't think it would've needed too many more soldiers to kill it, especially if they'd been armed properly. But an army is not just a "few scrubs". Drogon & the rest would've been killed if they had been a part of the war.

 

[duckroll]

You know. I just thought of something. Varys had no problems informing on Dany to King Robert. He also had no issues with actually ordering his people to assassinate her. Morment saved her, but not under orders from Varys. If that's so, then he's definitely betting on Aegon, and not Dany. His current support for Dany seems to be more a result of how she has managed to turn her own situation around, rather than Varys actually wanting to bet on her.

I wonder if Illyrio and Varys are really both on the same side, or if they're hiding stuff from each other as well...

 

[Freshmaker]

I'm sure characters like Jon, Tyrion, Arya, Bran and the like would've kept the dragons free killing innocent children & other people. Come on, that's one extremely shitty argument against Dany. :|

Tyrion's read enough of the literature to know how to use dragons in a fight, and he probably knows how to roost them too if anyone does. He needs to get to Dany in a hurry. He'd make her interesting. He has the experience and the knowledge that Dany sorely lacks.

Jon and Bran could've just warged 'em. (Heh. I'm joking here. I doubt a dragon can be warged.)

Duckroll, I don't think that Varys is the type who'd hitch his wagon to any star really. I think he tends to go with whatever flow he thinks will give him more control.

The fat man just seems to have a boner for the old kingdom and will throw backing at anything that bears even a slight chance of getting anyone from that family into the throne.

 

[ZephyrFate]

Tyrion's read enough of the literature to know how to use dragons in a fight, and he probably knows how to roost them too if anyone does. He needs to get to Dany in a hurry. He'd make her interesting.

Jon and Bran could've just warged 'em. (Heh. I'm joking here. I doubt a dragon can be warged.)

GRRM made an interesting joke about dragon warging on the Google Books interview.

I wonder if it's a subtle hint...

 

[Pollux]

If Jon Snow is actually dead, he will have been the most pointless character in ALL of literature. Give or take a few who would be even worse.

 

[Freshmaker]

If Jon Snow is actually dead, he will have been the most pointless character in ALL of literature. Give or take a few who would be even worse.

He's going to have a hard time staying dead where he is. Red priestess could raise him as a fire zombie and he could end up like his uncle if nothing else.

Or body jump into Stannis. That'd be an awesome troll.

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

If Jon Snow is actually dead, he will have been the most pointless character in ALL o
f literature. Give or take a few who would be even worse.

There are too many strong suggestions to even think he might be dead long term. The prologue, about joining permanetly into an animal, Millisandres vision, and his final thought of ghost.

The real discussion is what that 'death means to his oaths and what comes next as far as the war in the north is concerned.

 

[Sotha Sil]

You know. I just thought of something. Varys had no problems informing on Dany to King Robert. He also had no issues with actually ordering his people to assassinate her. Morment saved her, but not under orders from Varys. If that's so, then he's definitely betting on Aegon, and not Dany. His current support for Dany seems to be more a result of how she has managed to turn her own situation around, rather than Varys actually wanting to bet on her.

I wonder if Illyrio and Varys are really both on the same side, or if they're hiding stuff from each other as well...

That's what I like about the Aegon reveal: Varys's motivations suddenly make much more sense. I couldn't believe he was a true Targaryen supporter before then.

As for Illyrio possibly betting on Dany... I'm not sure. Sending her (and Viserys, though it probably wasn't part of the plan) with the Dothraki was quite the risky move. I think she was clearly expendable, right from the start.

 

[Chris R]

If Jon Snow is actually dead, he will have been the most pointless character in ALL of literature. Give or take a few who would be even worse.

Even if his human body is dead, as long as Ghost is alive he isn't entirely dead.

 

[fanboi]

There are too many strong suggestions to even think he might be dead long term. The prologue, about joining permanetly into an animal, Millisandres vision, and his final thought of ghost.

The real discussion is what that 'death means to his oaths and what comes next as far as the war in the north is concerned.

Yeah and all that Azor Zhai (spelling?) is reborned etc.

Also the visions Melissandre saw was man becoming a Wolf then becoming a man again, which fits with above.

 

[Pkaz01]

You know. I just thought of something. Varys had no problems informing on Dany to King Robert. He also had no issues with actually ordering his people to assassinate her. Morment saved her, but not under orders from Varys. If that's so, then he's definitely betting on Aegon, and not Dany. His current support for Dany seems to be more a result of how she has managed to turn her own situation around, rather than Varys actually wanting to bet on her.

I wonder if Illyrio and Varys are really both on the same side, or if they're hiding stuff from each other as well...

I agree that Varys is more in favor for Aegon but i'm sure at this point a marriage between the two is the best option for them on paper. But who knows how they will react to eachother and if Dany will respect him enough to get married and all that.

The poisoning think was probably just insurance for him if things didn't go well with the dorthraki and Varys needed to prove loyalty to robert. If Dany dies Drogo gets pissed and Viserys gets his army but once Viserys got crowned Dany was no longer expendable and instead of being a piece she became a potential player.

But I am interested in finding out why exactly they want to help the targeryans get back the throne, like tyrion was wondering whats in it for them that the dont already have?

 

[ZephyrFate]

I think I'm going to tell people who haven't read the books that they are "midget rape dragon shitting food descriptions" books.