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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
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platypotamus
Member
elrechazao said:
Awesome thought.
sazabirules said:
I actually think it was Summer?
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
The Iron folks could all vanish and I wouldn't notice. Is Asha's stuff interesting? Nope. Rotten hand man? No.mr. puppy said:
Theon is always fucking ace!
They need to forget about Essos and Dany, kill her off as some kind of side show that was cultivated to distract everyone from her nephew cos lets face it... a woman could never rule the 7 kingdoms!
Have the characters return and fuck shit up epically!
They need to forget about Essos and Dany, kill her off as some kind of side show that was cultivated to distract everyone from her nephew cos lets face it... a woman could never rule the 7 kingdoms!
Have the characters return and fuck shit up epically!
Harry Potter
Banned
Theon/Reek chapters were some of my favorite in ADWD. I agree about the other Greyjoy's though.Freshmaker said:
mr. puppy said:
Theons chapters were without a doubt my favorite in Dance with Dragons. In them, they had some of the most evocative writing in the series yet.
GRRM's description of Theon dealing with the ghosts of Winterfell in the shell of a once great castle is heartwrenching and eye opening. And his description of the torture he had to take as Reek was amazing.
A good illustration of why you shouldn't skip a single chapter. All have relevant information, all are important to the narrative, all have bits you don't want to miss, and all might be a favorite of someone.
Theon's chapters are brilliant.
mr. puppy said:
this is absurd. theon's chapters were hauntingly beautiful.
skipping chapters of a book? who taught some of you how to read?
some of you just seem to care about plot progression, too. there are other parts of a good book besides moving the plot along quickly.
Freshmaker said:
euron is shaping up to be a great pirate villain
victarion is one of the most bad ass characters in the books at this point
jon bones said:
I mean if they don't like it, they don't like it. But as I've seen now with Feast/Dance, many people on GAF are not individuals I would ever take book recommendations from - they have such thin readings of the books and have absolutely no grasp of what is important and what isn't. And buyer beware if there is worldbuilding and a step back from epic plot twists - then the book is excruciatingly slow and GRRM is just grinding his gears and it's better if that place remains a one dimensional crap shoot.
I always appreciate reading the vast differences of opinion, though. It helps understand the perspectives of different users, and you begin to know who to listen to and who to ignore.
I can't understand why anyone would read a book/series where they were skipping chapters because they didn't like them. If you can't read the book, just don't read it. I don't want to speak for everyone, but I can't see many people caring about what you have to say about the book if you're missing chunks of it...
Amir0x said:
To be fair, while I agree with your general point, Dance did feel like it dragged on in some aspects. I really appreciated the world building in Essos, but I think he went a little overboard with Tyrion and Dany. Both of them (and even Jon to a degree) could have had their number of chapters slimmed down a bit (take off 1-3 each). There still would have been ample time to build the world with those chapters, while leaving room to actually have a conclusion to some of the story arcs in the book (battle at Mereen, battle at Winterfell, what happened to Jon).
If Martin had taken this approach, Dance would probably be my 2nd favorite in the series, right behind Storm. There's some amazing world building and character progression in this book (Theon's arc is stunning), but the book just doesn't feel "finished" at the end. I still love it though, and can't wait for Winds of Winter (hoping in only takes him 2-3 years).
ZephyrFate
Banned
I think perhaps the worst opinions expressed regarding Dance were "GRRM has lost control of the plot!" and "I am now not eagerly anticipating the next book because this series is becoming like LOST!"Amir0x said:
and other such gobbledygook
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Meh. If they don't want to slog through Dany arguing with people about whether or not she'll let a priestess inspect her vag before she gets married, I won't blame them for missing out on ZOMG world building.AcciDante said:
Dany: Kinda dumb, but at least she's fireproof.
I don't think there's anything wrong with skipping chapters temporarily. Let's say you hate Dany and Tyrion's chapters but you're really invested in what's going on in the North. I don't see a problem with people skipping the Essos chapters to read through the Reek, Jon, Asha, and Melisandre chapters, then going back and reading the Essos stuff afterward. But yeah, skipping chapters and never going back to read them seems a bit odd to me, but to each his own.
Basileus777
Member
ZephyrFate said:
That depends on what one means by that. Martin struggled writing for 11 years because the structure of story wasn't working. That the plot has had structural problems because of Martin's "gardener" writing style isn't really even debatable, GRRM himself has talked about it for years.
Palette Swap
Member
I finished reading the book today.
I loved the Reek/Theon parts. I totally cringed for this guy I used to hate - and still do to an extent. In a series where the Red Wedding occurred, I think the Bolton bastard manages to be the most despicable character.
If there's one thing GRRM excels at, it's empathizing with characters. It's not about making a character likable or making everyone a good guy, it's about getting them, and he does that brilliantly. (Simmons wrote a long but well thought out piece about that a few years ago)
I liked the Snow parts if only because I have absolutely no idea if his decisions were on-the-fly strategic genius or if he's one of the biggest traitors the Watch has seen. I was and still am utterly conflicted about what he's done and as much as I've grown to like the free folk, it makes sense to consider that he's sold out the Realms of Man and took part in politics that shouldn't matter to the Watch. Deep down, being the omniscient reader and knowing the Others are out there, I do believe he made the less shitty choices, but it's not obvious and I'm pretty sure it's not what Ned would have done. If Jon is dead, I guess the point of the prologue was to let us know he'll live on as Ghost.
The Dany parts were my least favorite mostly because they felt a bit long and I honestly had a hard time caring. Her entourage ended up being more interesting. I think the contrast with Snow made it harder. While Snow has grown, I felt Dany was pretty much running in circles in the exact way she'd been doing back in ACoK and ASoS.
Surprisingly, I thought Aegon's comeback works very well, mostly because Connington is an interesting character. I almost wondered if some parts of the Connington character weren't initially meant for Jorah because they have the same kind of themes running there.
Great to see Davos alive (as expected) and great to see some people in the North remember. There's no reason for it to happen but I will be hugely satisfied if the Freys and Boltons eventually get what's coming to them.
Also didn't Val at some point imply the Evil God of the North had Bran or the green seer working for it?
Overall, I loved it but feel absolutely blue-balled because I want to know what happens to Jaime and Brienne, what the hell is going on with Osha, Rickon and the cannibals, what happened to Benjen (coldhands?), what Littlefinger and Sansa have been up to, what happened to Stannis and Mance (Mance is fucking awesome), where Sandor Clegane is, if Margaery did drink moon tea and if Loras has really been disfigured. Not to mention seeing everyone go apeshit over the zombie Mountain.
I loved the Reek/Theon parts. I totally cringed for this guy I used to hate - and still do to an extent. In a series where the Red Wedding occurred, I think the Bolton bastard manages to be the most despicable character.
If there's one thing GRRM excels at, it's empathizing with characters. It's not about making a character likable or making everyone a good guy, it's about getting them, and he does that brilliantly. (Simmons wrote a long but well thought out piece about that a few years ago)
I liked the Snow parts if only because I have absolutely no idea if his decisions were on-the-fly strategic genius or if he's one of the biggest traitors the Watch has seen. I was and still am utterly conflicted about what he's done and as much as I've grown to like the free folk, it makes sense to consider that he's sold out the Realms of Man and took part in politics that shouldn't matter to the Watch. Deep down, being the omniscient reader and knowing the Others are out there, I do believe he made the less shitty choices, but it's not obvious and I'm pretty sure it's not what Ned would have done. If Jon is dead, I guess the point of the prologue was to let us know he'll live on as Ghost.
The Dany parts were my least favorite mostly because they felt a bit long and I honestly had a hard time caring. Her entourage ended up being more interesting. I think the contrast with Snow made it harder. While Snow has grown, I felt Dany was pretty much running in circles in the exact way she'd been doing back in ACoK and ASoS.
Surprisingly, I thought Aegon's comeback works very well, mostly because Connington is an interesting character. I almost wondered if some parts of the Connington character weren't initially meant for Jorah because they have the same kind of themes running there.
Great to see Davos alive (as expected) and great to see some people in the North remember. There's no reason for it to happen but I will be hugely satisfied if the Freys and Boltons eventually get what's coming to them.
Also didn't Val at some point imply the Evil God of the North had Bran or the green seer working for it?
Overall, I loved it but feel absolutely blue-balled because I want to know what happens to Jaime and Brienne, what the hell is going on with Osha, Rickon and the cannibals, what happened to Benjen (coldhands?), what Littlefinger and Sansa have been up to, what happened to Stannis and Mance (Mance is fucking awesome), where Sandor Clegane is, if Margaery did drink moon tea and if Loras has really been disfigured. Not to mention seeing everyone go apeshit over the zombie Mountain.
Basileus777
Member
That was Melisandre. But her POV proves she has no clue how to interpret what she sees through the flames.Palette Swap said:
Blue Ninja
Member
Finished my reread of A Game of Thrones today. The final Cat chapter gave me chills. "THE KING IN THE NORTH!"
... At least until I remembered what came afterwards.
Man, in all my hate for Ramsay, I almost forgot it was Roose who fucking killed Robb. I want to see them both flayed and hung from the walls in Winterfell. I'll settle for no less, either. :lol
Heck, Manderly can them serve them to the Freys as food, before trapping them in the Great Hall and burninating them alive. The North Remembers, bastards.
... At least until I remembered what came afterwards.
Man, in all my hate for Ramsay, I almost forgot it was Roose who fucking killed Robb. I want to see them both flayed and hung from the walls in Winterfell. I'll settle for no less, either. :lol
Heck, Manderly can them serve them to the Freys as food, before trapping them in the Great Hall and burninating them alive. The North Remembers, bastards.
Palette Swap
Member
Yes, sorry, I meant Mel.Basileus777 said:
The whole red god thing is interesting because there's absolutely nothing that indicates it's a benevolent force. It just raises the dead with fire where its counterpart raises them with ice.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Isn't he dead? People talking about the hound still being alive had to do with some random thug wearing his helmet, didn't it?Palette Swap said:
elrechazado
Banned
No, it's strongly hinted that he's the large gravedigger at that monastery of the seven in AFFC. The hound is dead, sandor clegane is not necessarily dead.Freshmaker said:
Reviving my 'sandor will be the church's champion vs gregor in cersei's trial" theory.
ItAintEasyBeinCheesy
it's 4th of July in my asshole
elrechazao said:
Yeah was hinted at heavily, The Hound had an injured leg from a stab or whatever and the grave digger had a bad limp. Also there was a big war horse in the stables at the monastery as well I think.
There where enough hints to believe it I think.
Finished Dance last night. Not too excited to wait six years to find out whether or not Jon is dead. I really wasn't surprised that Bowen Marsh and gang tried to assassinate him. Overall, it felt like Feast but with a focus on the stronger characters. Theon, Arya, Davos, and Selmy were all good reads but those Dany chapters were almost always a chore. Just about every time I got to one of her chapters I would stop reading. Also I don't want to read the phrase "words are wind" ever again.
Palette Swap
Member
Damn, I'm stupid. How did I miss the Frey pie? I love Manderly.
People should really stay away from weddings in Westeros.
People should really stay away from weddings in Westeros.
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
I missed it as well, what are you talking about?Palette Swap said:
Nothing against you or anything but I just never understood why people feel Doran is so badass or whatever. I understand Manderly that is some awesome shit and I do like Doran and his hidden agenda while portraying someone who is weak, but how exactly is he badass? He plans to marry his son/daughter to Dany/Viserys. Oberyn was without a doubt a badass but Doran? Just another schemer playing the game. He hasn't done much.Sotha Sil said:
I do like that he is finally putting the sand snakes to use though, now they are pretty badass.
Again I do like Doran but I just dont get why so many people feel he is a badass.
Yea he has a plan and it is a secret but how exactly is it badass? He plans on marrying and joining forces with the Targeryans but what does that do in terms of the revenge he wants? I just don't get what he thinks that will do for him. If he wanted revenge he could have easily joined forces with stannis or robb and utterly destroyed the lannisters. He puts all his money on the targs but to no avail.Pikelet said:
He is cool but so far all he has done is keep dorne out of the war and the same can be said of Lysa Tully but no one considered her a badass.
Doran is cool and is a decent player but he isn't really a badass. When I think of badass i see the greatjon, tywin, syrio. people that would take no bullshit not some schemer who thinks if his son/daughter marry a targ everything will be perfect.
Pkaz01 said:
Hahaha, had this conversation before in one of the other threads, and I don't want to repeat myself here. Basically, I love calculating, yet ultimately benevolent characters. I my book, Doran is a badass because he puts his people before his own pleasure and lust for revenge, just like Ned Stark, and yet does not shy away from long-term plots and duplicity. I know he can both be seen as a badass, or as a weak leader: he even says so himself in Dance. But I really think he's the only man able to keep Dorne safe, and ultimately lead it to victory. (And I fully expect Martin to prove me wrong).
Anyway, I'm nearing the end of my read-through and wanted to ask, is there any semi-comprehensive analysis of the book yet, e.g. a big-ass topic discussing small plot points and subtle hints on what may yet come? Something like the old discussions regarding the Clegane brothers, Valyria, Jon's parents and so on, only for new points.
Sotha Sil said:
He is an interesting character. I wonder what he will do when he finds out about his son. I really hope he gives the finger to Dany and just full on supports Aegon because I don't see Dany and Aegon ever getting together, or Aegon staying alive for much longer than the next book.
BeeDog said:
These two threads are full of good stuff, actually the whole ADWD section is pretty good.
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/53780-adwd-spoilers-all-of-the-little-things/
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/55395-adwd-spoilers-the-hooded-man-at-winterfell/
Palette Swap
Member
If Aegon and Connington manage to take Storm's End and gather some support, I wonder whether Doran will declare for Aegon.
I'm still of the opinion Tyrion had the right of it when he told Aegon to gather his banners in Westeros rather than go beg to Daenerys.
Too bad Aemon didn't leave to see that.
I'm still of the opinion Tyrion had the right of it when he told Aegon to gather his banners in Westeros rather than go beg to Daenerys.
Too bad Aemon didn't leave to see that.
OneMoreQuestion
Member
Alright so my post may be hilariously OT - or it may not be - but I have a question about something that has been troubling me for a while.
A few months back, I remember reading a excerpt from some fantasy novel involving a group of women getting banged by some monster with a spiked member in order to gain magical powers, is it from this series by any chance? Mock if it's not, but I'd also appreciate it if you could mention the series where it's from (not that I'm gonna read it, mind you)...
A few months back, I remember reading a excerpt from some fantasy novel involving a group of women getting banged by some monster with a spiked member in order to gain magical powers, is it from this series by any chance? Mock if it's not, but I'd also appreciate it if you could mention the series where it's from (not that I'm gonna read it, mind you)...
OneMoreQuestion
Member
mannerbot said:
Many thanks. I shall now refrain from spoiling this thread further.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
I can't believe I read that whole series.mannerbot said:
So does anyone have any idea who the dead ranger who helps Bran is? I want to believe it's Benjen, but only because that'd be neat--zero supporting information.
Sotha Sil said:
Well, it might be the the child of the forest who caught Benjen and helped him unleash his powers as a warg into an undead so he could help Bran come to them?
And since he said "you are a monster" implies that he think himself as a monster since he has these unnatural powers...
Just finished...
FUCK YOU MARTIN, FUCK YOU AND YOUR AWESOME BOOKS.
I swear that, when I started the first one if I knew it was 7 books and a ongoing thing I would have never started it. Thinking I will have to wait another 6 years to read what happens next makes me sad.
Anyway, my guesses:
This is not the end of Jon, I know how Martin does stuff and if he was dead, we would know it. So far it has some daggers on him, or so it seems. I don't know if he will shapeshift into Ghost, come back as a dead man or it was all a glamour of Melissandre, but he still has a role to play on this.
"Ser Robert" is obviously the old king, Robert Baratheon as a living dead thing (yes, I'm sure I'm the first one to suspect that, I'm so clever). I can't wait to see the reaction of Cersei to that and I wonder what is the deal with that. At this point I don't understand very well the role of the people who come back from dead, their motivations and so.
Dany is fucking clueless. I was really curious how she would reign and she was a complete disaster. I guess I should have known, she was not prepared for that, mother's dragon or not.
Arya is badass.
Tyrion keeps being awesome.
FUCK YOU MARTIN, FUCK YOU AND YOUR AWESOME BOOKS.
I swear that, when I started the first one if I knew it was 7 books and a ongoing thing I would have never started it. Thinking I will have to wait another 6 years to read what happens next makes me sad.
Anyway, my guesses:
This is not the end of Jon, I know how Martin does stuff and if he was dead, we would know it. So far it has some daggers on him, or so it seems. I don't know if he will shapeshift into Ghost, come back as a dead man or it was all a glamour of Melissandre, but he still has a role to play on this.
"Ser Robert" is obviously the old king, Robert Baratheon as a living dead thing (yes, I'm sure I'm the first one to suspect that, I'm so clever). I can't wait to see the reaction of Cersei to that and I wonder what is the deal with that. At this point I don't understand very well the role of the people who come back from dead, their motivations and so.
Dany is fucking clueless. I was really curious how she would reign and she was a complete disaster. I guess I should have known, she was not prepared for that, mother's dragon or not.
Arya is badass.
Tyrion keeps being awesome.
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