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[Piecake]

I think gold is going to be Aegon. My baseless theory of the day is that once Stannis fails, Tycho Nestoris and the Iron Bank of Braavos will back Aegon. Aegon then realizes that he really doesnt need Dany now to take the Iron Throne and doesnt want to share power and ends up betraying her when they first meet (or later).

I think the theory has a shot because, well, it would be pretty interesting, and it gives the whole Cersie defaulting on her loans and the Iron Bank backing other claimants to the throne more relevance/meaning.

 

[FutureZombie]

If Barristan betrays Dany I will lose my faith in humanity. And not because I like Dany, because I'm lukewarm on her at best. I don't care if he's not a real person; him betraying Dany would personally hurt me.

I feel the same way about Dolorous Ed. If he had betrayed Jon, I don't think I could have handled it.

Also if Hodor dies I might cry.

 

[Lax Mike]

I think gold is going to be Aegon. My baseless theory of the day is that once Stannis fails, Tycho Nestoris and the Iron Bank of Braavos will back Aegon. Aegon then realizes that he really doesnt need Dany now to take the Iron Throne and doesnt want to share power and ends up betraying her when they first meet (or later).

I think the theory has a shot because, well, it would be pretty interesting, and it gives the whole Cersie defaulting on her loans and the Iron Bank backing other claimants to the throne more relevance/meaning.

I'm thinking the same thing in terms of the Iron Bank somehow becoming a major factor, though I feel like one of its most important roles will be bringing Arya back to Westeros via hiring the Faceless Men. I also think that a Littlefinger orchestrated the massive debt owed to the Iron Bank during his time in court as part of his plans. And I'm almost positive that if all goes perfectly, and Aegon and Dany regain control of the Iron Throne, Aegon or one of his allies will turn around and kill her once her dragons are no longer needed, though there will probably be some justification for it, with my best bet being that Dany will start to show signs of the same madness as her father.

 

[apana]

Elio and Linda of Westeros.org make an interesting case that Aegon may not be the real Aegon. Something about Illyrio's wife having a Valyrian look and them passing off their son as the real Aegon. I think there were some clues about this in the Tyrion chapters.

edit: Some people are also speculating that Jojen and Meera might be dead. Bran tastes blood in his last vision and the Weirwood paste looked like blood at first. I think Jojen also said Bran is not the one that needs to be afraid, he might have been referring to himself. Another clue is in the Last Hero story that Old Nan tells Bran in the first book. The Last Hero finds the Children of the Forest but all his companions and his horse (Hodor) die.

 

[Nymerio]

Murdering Shae?
Murdering Simon Silvertongue?

It's also suggested that he knew Jaime threw Bran out the window but didn't do anything about it.

That whore had it coming and Simeon Silvertongue was singing entirely the wrong songs

 

[Basileus777]

That whore had it coming

Why? A prostitute who doesn't stay loyal to her john after he can no longer pay her deserves to die? Tyrion knew what she was and still somehow deceived himself into thinking their relationship was something it wasn't.

 

[Shahadan]

Why? A prostitute who doesn't stay loyal to her john after he can no longer pay her deserves to die? Tyrion knew what she was and still somehow deceived himself into thinking their relationship was something it wasn't.

Well except for telling him she loved him, testifying against him and humiliating him in public and fucking his father.

Edit : DAMN you edited.

 

[Basileus777]

Well except for telling him she loved him, testifying against him and humiliating him in public and fucking his father.

Edit : DAMN you edited.

Tyrion has no one to blame but himself if he ever believed Shae cared for him. Humiliating him and fucking his father...well being a selfish whore (which Tyrion knew she was) doesn't mean she deserved to get murdered. Shae was a young girl who liked jewels and was sleeping with Tyrion to improve her status...what did he expect to happen once he was ruined and imprisoned?

Tyrion is fucked up because of Tysha and got attached to a person that he knew all along never cared about more than his wealth and status. He's got no one to blame but himself for what happened.

 

[Nymerio]

And she has no one to blame but herself if she thought she could get away with testifying against him and humiliating him. What I was trying to say is that I don't really see Tyrion betraying Dany for gold. He may be a murderous dwarf who may or may not have done horrible things, but I don't see him as someone who would betray somebody for gold.

 

[Blue Ninja]

Tyrion is fucked up because of Tysha and got attached to a person that he knew all along never cared about more than his wealth and status. He's got no one to blame but himself for what happened.

Pretty much this. He fooled himself and repeated the past, putting his trust in entirely the wrong person.

Shae lying about their 'relationship' wasn't right, though. She tried to pay the game of the high lords and ended up paying for it with her life. It's her mistake as much as it was Tyrion's.

 

[Duki]

COMPLAIN NED HAS TOO MUCH HONOUR

CHASTISE SOMEONE FOR EFFICIENTLY DISPATCHING THEIR ENEMIES

literally like one of dem memes

 

[Pkaz01]

And she has no one to blame but herself if she thought she could get away with testifying against him and humiliating him. What I was trying to say is that I don't really see Tyrion betraying Dany for gold. He may be a murderous dwarf who may or may not have done horrible things, but I don't see him as someone who would betray somebody for gold.

I agree with that. I honestly think the betrayed for love is going to be by Barristan for Ashara Dayne (septa lemore) or by Tyrion for the family members he cares about. As much as he is mad at Jaime I don't think he would let Dany kill him (if he Uncat doesn't get him first).

I also can't see the Iron Bank supporting a Targeryan especially if the speculation of their ties with the faceless men being so close are correct.

 

[Sir Garbageman]

I agree with that. I honestly think the betrayed for love is going to be by Barristan for Ashara Dayne (septa lemore) or by Tyrion for the family members he cares about. As much as he is mad at Jaime I don't think he would let Dany kill him (if he Uncat doesn't get him first).

I also can't see the Iron Bank supporting a Targeryan especially if the speculation of their ties with the faceless men being so close are correct.

Did I miss something? Is there an FAQs somewhere with possible theories / speculation out there?

 

[Mockingbird]

Did I miss something? Is there an FAQs somewhere with possible theories / speculation out there?

Just pure speculation. The only thing in common is the hair color and pregnancy. The eye color is never mentioned --- which is what matters.

 

[Dinosaur Tamer]

Just pure speculation. The only thing in common is the hair color and pregnancy. The eye color is never mentioned --- which is what matters.

It's definitely an interesting theory. I think it's pretty clear Septa Lemore is more than just a (more or less) insignificant Septa. It's not a far stretch her being pregnant at some point in the past is some kind of vital information in this case, considering the way it was pointed out. It just seemed like some of these 'subtle' hints.

*Edit*: There is something about Jon's death that caught my eye. After the first dagger attack he tries to draw his sword, but can't seem to get it out of its scabbard. Martin writes his swordhand is "stiff" and "clumsy". This may just be there to show Jon stopped training and flexing his burned hand and thus letting his guard down - leading to this treachery, but I don't think so.

Now, I could be completely wrong, but I am quite sure he keeps flexing his right hand all the way through ADWD (and IIRC he does so in this very chapter or the one before). This may be a way of telling the reader this is not really Jon and some kind of Mance/Rattleshirt deception is going on.

 

[ZAnimus]

Jon gets Lightbringer by stabbing Ghost with his sword. Calling it now.

He'll plunge it into Mel and when he draws it out it will steam and smoke and be the real Light Bringer. Mel will somehow go into the sword.

I'm starting to suspect that the story of Azor Ahai creating Lightbringer isn't as literal an account of an event as Mel and co believe, but rather a fictionalised fable/parable about the creation of Valyrian steel (or its pre-Valyrian equivalent). With blood seemingly being required for much/most of the really powerful magic in this world, I think that forging Valyrian steel involves human sacrifice. That's partly why the blades are so rare. And there have been hints that "dragonsteel" can kill the Others.

This might mean that Jon's not going to get/make Lightbringer at some point -- he already has it (Longclaw) without knowing it.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Now, I could be completely wrong, but I am quite sure he keeps flexing his right hand all the way through ADWD (and IIRC he does so in this very chapter or the one before). This may be a way of telling the reader this is not really Jon and some kind of Mance/Rattleshirt deception is going on.

The chapter is told through Jon's point of view. It can't be anyone except for Jon, because we get into his head within the chapter and see those events from his perspective.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

Now, I could be completely wrong, but I am quite sure he keeps flexing his right hand all the way through ADWD (and IIRC he does so in this very chapter or the one before). This may be a way of telling the reader this is not really Jon and some kind of Mance/Rattleshirt deception is going on.

It's written from Jon's POV though. Impossible unless Martin wants to go to a whole new level of unreliable narrators.

 

[Arcblade]

Okay.

Lets clear something up here and now.

The books speak of a mummer's dragon, not a mummer dragon, perhaps.

But in ADWD, dragons, both real and FALSE, are mentioned.

This leads me to believe Aegon is in fact NOT a Targ.

 

[Dinosaur Tamer]

The chapter is told through Jon's point of view. It can't be anyone except for Jon, because we get into his head within the chapter and see those events from his perspective.

I know. Still, without rereading the chapter, I would not put it past Martin to label it Jon, but have someone else rally the Night's Watch in the Shieldhall. I am not sure about the details right now, so there might be some train of thoughts or dialogues in there that would instantly shatter this theory.

I am not even saying it's likely and I already somewhat contradicted myself, if Jon is indeed flexing his burned hand in that chapter. I just though the line about his fingers being stiff and clumsy pretty weird with how flexing his swordhand to prevent this is actually Jon's signature move/behavior.

 

[Mockingbird]

 

[PhoenixDark]

He most likely couldn't pull out his sword due to being in shock; the man was stabbed afterall. Or it was some magic that ensured he couldn't defend himself, from Mel. I'm not a fan of that theory though. Although...it kind of seemed like Mel knew what was going to happen when she left the hall during the speech.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

He most likely couldn't pull out his sword due to being in shock; the man was stabbed afterall. Or it was some magic that ensured he couldn't defend himself, from Mel. I'm not a fan of that theory though. Although...it kind of seemed like Mel knew what was going to happen when she left the hall during the speech.

I thought he had his throat cut out? Jon thinks the blade just grazed him, but there was too much blood for it to be a small cut.

 

[Mockingbird]

He most likely couldn't pull out his sword due to being in shock; the man was stabbed afterall. Or it was some magic that ensured he couldn't defend himself, from Mel. I'm not a fan of that theory though. Although...it kind of seemed like Mel knew what was going to happen when she left the hall during the speech.

When he was going for his sword, he was not yet stabbed.

 

[PhoenixDark]

When he was going for his sword, he was not yet stabbed.

I thought the "punch" happened before he attempted to pull out his sword; don't have the book on me right now, let me bro borrow it.

 

[elrechazado]

I don't think it's that mysterious why he couldn't grasp his sword - he'd just had his throat cut or bgeen "punched" with the dagger....

 

[Dinosaur Tamer]

He most likely couldn't pull out his sword due to being in shock; the man was stabbed afterall..

I don't know. I think he tries to reach for Longclaw just after the first attack that barely hits him and personally, I feel like that's just too much of a coincidence for Martin. There must be something behind him constantly flexing his hand and still not being able to rely on it when in danger.

Although...it kind of seemed like Mel knew what was going to happen when she left the hall during the speech.

That's not a long stretch. She warned him about "daggers in the dark" multiple times. I am pretty sure she knew what would happen.

*Edit*

I don't think it's that mysterious why he couldn't grasp his sword - he'd just had his throat cut or bgeen "punched" with the dagger....

No, that first dagger barely touches him. He pulls away in the last moment and forces the steward to drop the dagger before trying to reach for Longclaw.

 

[elrechazado]

I don't know. I think he tries to reach for Longclaw just after the first attack that barely hits him and personally, I feel like that's just too much of a coincidence for Martin. There must be something behind him constantly flexing his hand and still not being able to rely on it when in danger.



That's not a long stretch. She warned him about "daggers in the dark" multiple times. I am pretty sure she knew what would happen.

Why wouldn't he reach for his sword upon being attacked?

 

[jon bones]

The chapter is told through Jon's point of view. It can't be anyone except for Jon, because we get into his head within the chapter and see those events from his perspective.

Now starts x years of people's seriously terrible suggestions.

 

[Lirlond]

I don't remember Jon flexing his hand much in ADWD yet in COK and SOS every other pages he's flexing his fingers to keep them supple.

 

[Dresden]

You know, I think there's something in how Missandei always sticks near Dany. Maybe Missandei is the real Dany and they drugged Missandei to act like Dany so the real Dany would be safe when they try to kill Dany, but they'd be trying to kill Missandei the fake Dany instead, because the real Dany would be disguised as the fake Missandei (whose real version is the fake Dany).

 

[Arcblade]

Now starts x years of people's seriously terrible suggestions.

That "x" looks quite accurate.

 

[Piecake]

You know, I think there's something in how Missandei always sticks near Dany. Maybe Missandei is the real Dany and they drugged Missandei to act like Dany so the real Dany would be safe when they try to kill Dany, but they'd be trying to kill Missandei the fake Dany instead, because the real Dany would be disguised as the fake Missandei (whose real version is the fake Dany).

I hope that was a joke, because that is the dumbest theory I have ever heard

 

[IamMattFox]

I hope that was a joke, because that is the dumbest theory I have ever heard

Obviously poking fun at the fake Jon theory.

 

[Nuttycam]

You know, I think there's something in how Missandei always sticks near Dany. Maybe Missandei is the real Dany and they drugged Missandei to act like Dany so the real Dany would be safe when they try to kill Dany, but they'd be trying to kill Missandei the fake Dany instead, because the real Dany would be disguised as the fake Missandei (whose real version is the fake Dany).

you've cracked it! Would be suprised if this wasn't the case now.

 

[jon bones]

I hope that was a joke, because that is the dumbest theory I have ever heard

no he's serious mayne

 

[Piecake]

Obviously poking fun at the fake Jon theory.

there's a fake Jon theory? How the hell does that make any sense

 

[Nuttycam]

It doesn't

 

[Dinosaur Tamer]

Why wouldn't he reach for his sword upon being attacked?

I never said he wouldn't. In fact, it's not surprising he does try to reach his sword. And even though he has been warned about "daggers in the dark", it's pretty clear he does not expect his brothers to stab him right there. So, it's no big surprise he is unable to defend himself. I was merely surprised about the reason given and more so about Martin's exact choice of words.

I don't remember Jon flexing his hand much in ADWD yet in COK and SOS every other pages he's flexing his fingers to keep them supple.

I am pretty sure he does so in at least one of the last two chapters - possibly both. Still, that could be a clever way of showing character progression. Jon being consumed by his effort to save the free folk and form an alliance against the Others and slowly letting his guard down. It's definitely possible that's what Martin is hinting at.

Now starts x years of people's seriously terrible suggestions.

There is a pretty obvious divergence between this particular scene and Jon's character and behavior throughout the series. I don't think it's a coincidence. If you are convinced it is, that's OK. You may even be right, but we won't know for sure for few more years.

I said it was unlikely and a far stretch and I was obviously trying to point out a strange line rather than presenting a sound solution from the get go.

You know, I think there's something in how Missandei always sticks near Dany. Maybe Missandei is the real Dany and they drugged Missandei to act like Dany so the real Dany would be safe when they try to kill Dany, but they'd be trying to kill Missandei the fake Dany instead, because the real Dany would be disguised as the fake Missandei (whose real version is the fake Dany).

Yeah, very funny. See above.

 

[apana]

Does anyone else think Sansa is going to end up being the "new" littlefinger. Meaning she has kind of trained under him and will eventually double cross him and her future husband. Once she has the support of both the North and the Vale she will be able to take King's Landing and become Queen. Remember the prophecy about a more beautiful and younger queen replacing Cersei?

 

[ZephyrFate]

Does anyone else think Sansa is going to end up being the "new" littlefinger. Meaning she has kind of trained under him and will eventually double cross him and her future husband. Once she has the support of both the North and the Vale she will be able to take King's Landing and become Queen. Remember the prophecy about a more beautiful and younger queen replacing Cersei?

I thought that was Margaery.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

I thought that was Margaery.

I was thinking it's going to be Dany, but Sansa is a possibility (and with her past with Cersei, Sansa is a much better choice). Margaery is just who Cersei assumed it was, just like how she assumed Tyrion was the valonqar.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I agree with that. I honestly think the betrayed for love is going to be by Barristan for Ashara Dayne (septa lemore)

I think Septa Lemore is too young. Barristan is around 60, and she's in her 40s.

 

[Dresden]

I think Septa Lemore is too young. Barristan is around 60, and she's in her 40s.

Ashara was around Ned's age, it's plausible.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

It's definitely an interesting theory. I think it's pretty clear Septa Lemore is more than just a (more or less) insignificant Septa. It's not a far stretch her being pregnant at some point in the past is some kind of vital information in this case, considering the way it was pointed out. It just seemed like some of these 'subtle' hints.

*Edit*: There is something about Jon's death that caught my eye. After the first dagger attack he tries to draw his sword, but can't seem to get it out of its scabbard. Martin writes his swordhand is "stiff" and "clumsy". This may just be there to show Jon stopped training and flexing his burned hand and thus letting his guard down - leading to this treachery, but I don't think so.

Now, I could be completely wrong, but I am quite sure he keeps flexing his right hand all the way through ADWD (and IIRC he does so in this very chapter or the one before). This may be a way of telling the reader this is not really Jon and some kind of Mance/Rattleshirt deception is going on.

This is because he just got stabbed and all his strength is fading fast, due to the whole dying now thing.

 

[Velti]

Freaking JON. He better not be dead. That would be retarded. What would be the freaking point? "I killed another Stark LOL~!!11!"

I felt like this book was a little fluff-tacular in sections- not enough moved forward for my liking. It's a ginormous bridge book. Also, what was the point of Quintyn? What. Was. It? Why did I need to read about this loveable loser who thought he could "steal" a freaking dragon? MEH.

Spoiler

Right now, my sole desire for this series is for the Hound not to be dead, and to randomly swoop in and rescue/kidnap Sansa, and they eventually make little malamutes and reclaim Winterfell THE END.

I can't wait to get back to Brienne and Jaime. They're cool folks.

 

[bonesmccoy]

He most likely couldn't pull out his sword due to being in shock; the man was stabbed afterall. Or it was some magic that ensured he couldn't defend himself, from Mel. I'm not a fan of that theory though. Although...it kind of seemed like Mel knew what was going to happen when she left the hall during the speech.

Perhaps Mel decided that Jon was AA, and decided to do the 'reborning' part herself.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Freaking JON. He better not be dead. That would be retarded. What would be the freaking point? "I killed another Stark LOL~!!11!"

I felt like this book was a little fluff-tacular in sections- not enough moved forward for my liking. It's a ginormous bridge book. Also, what was the point of Quintyn? What. Was. It? Why did I need to read about this loveable loser who thought he could "steal" a freaking dragon? MEH.

Spoiler

Right now, my sole desire for this series is for the Hound not to be dead, and to randomly swoop in and rescue/kidnap Sansa, and they eventually make little malamutes and reclaim Winterfell THE END.

I can't wait to get back to Brienne and Jaime. They're cool folks.

You needed Quentin so that you know that not all arcs are going to pan out as planned. That there are a lot of forces at work, and some of them will be dead ends. Plus, it was entertaining as hell and gave one of the few complete stories in the book.

I'm going to keep repeating my theory that Jon will live on first in Ghost, then jump back to him own reanimated body. Likely? No. But fun.

I'm actually pretty sure about the Ghost part-- I figure that was a large part of the reason for the Prologue.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

I'm actually pretty sure about the Ghost part-- I figure that was a large part of the reason for the Prologue.

I figure that the main reason was to establish the 'warg rules' that Bran and his group all break over the course of the book, but stuff with Jon/Ghost could have something to do with that.

 

[apana]

Did George ever mention who Ned Stark's mother was? Presumably she was Lord Rickard's wife. I have a feeling that the reason lord Rickard was building alliances was that he wanted to attack the Targaryens. Bran's vision kind of hints at that when he sess that woman at the Weirwood tree asking for a son that would avenge her. I have a feeling that was Lord Rickard's mother.