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[Cromat]

Jon Snow isn't dead. He will be healed/rescued/resurrected by Melisandre. "Killing him" was just the way to honorably discharge him from the Night's Watch. He has to live because he is the ultimate (yet pretty obvious twist).

The dragon has three heads. Daenerys, the pure Targaryen with her dragons. Prince Aegon, who is also the child of Ella of Dorne. And Jon Snow, not a bastard but the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark whose identity had to be kept secret for his own safety.

With the support of Dorne, the riverlands, the Vale and the north (thanks to Sansa), the war should result in the happy reign of the three dragons.

I just hope Tyrion and Tommen survive, since Cersei and Jaime probably won't.

 

[tmdorsey]

Jon Snow isn't dead. He will be healed/rescued/resurrected by Melisandre. "Killing him" was just the way to honorably discharge him from the Night's Watch. He has to live because he is the ultimate (yet pretty obvious twist).

The dragon has three heads. Daenerys, the pure Targaryen with her dragons. Prince Aegon, who is also the child of Ella of Dorne. And Jon Snow, not a bastard but the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark whose identity had to be kept secret for his own safety.

With the support of Dorne, the riverlands, the Vale and the north (thanks to Sansa), the war should result in the happy reign of the three dragons.

I just hope Tyrion and Tommen survive, since Cersei and Jaime probably won't.

I guess I'm one of the stupid few who never put together this theory of Jon being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Was anything even mentioned about Rhaegar and Lyanna having a thing besides Rhaegar declaring her after winning that one tournament or whatever?

 

[sazabirules]

I guess I'm one of the stupid few who never put together this theory of Jon being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Was anything even mentioned about Rhaegar and Lyanna having a thing besides Rhaegar declaring her after winning that one tournament or whatever?

Read this page if you want to see all of the hints about it.

http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.html

 

[TCRS]

I guess I'm one of the stupid few who never put together this theory of Jon being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Was anything even mentioned about Rhaegar and Lyanna having a thing besides Rhaegar declaring her after winning that one tournament or whatever?

Wow! Neither did I. Rhaegar and Lyanna... interesting. To be honest, after Eddard and Maester Luwin (I'm assuming he is one of the few who knew) died I didn't care much about Jon's lineage. I thought it doesn't matter any more, just one of those things that GRRM killed off.

@sazabirules
Interesting discussion, thanks for the link. Read the first bit, going to read the rest now...

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

Maester Luwin is still alive. He used his study of magic to heal himself using Osha's knife. He then steals the extra sword in the crypts to kill Little Walder. He's the cloaked man that Theon sees in Winterfell. Crackpot theories.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Jon Snow isn't dead. He will be healed/rescued/resurrected by Melisandre. "Killing him" was just the way to honorably discharge him from the Night's Watch. He has to live because he is the ultimate (yet pretty obvious twist).

The dragon has three heads. Daenerys, the pure Targaryen with her dragons. Prince Aegon, who is also the child of Ella of Dorne. And Jon Snow, not a bastard but the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark whose identity had to be kept secret for his own safety.

With the support of Dorne, the riverlands, the Vale and the north (thanks to Sansa), the war should result in the happy reign of the three dragons.

I just hope Tyrion and Tommen survive, since Cersei and Jaime probably won't.

Far too cliched/convenient imo. I think Jon is still alive, or will be after Melisandre has her way with him. She clearly knew what was going to happen to him that night; the reason she didn't intervene is because she needs Jon at his weakest point to have some influence.

I still think Aegon is a fake. His quick victories (taking Storm's End in such small time especially) tell me he's being set up for a big fall, Martin style.

 

[Fjordson]

Jon Snow isn't dead. He will be healed/rescued/resurrected by Melisandre. "Killing him" was just the way to honorably discharge him from the Night's Watch. He has to live because he is the ultimate (yet pretty obvious twist).

The dragon has three heads. Daenerys, the pure Targaryen with her dragons. Prince Aegon, who is also the child of Ella of Dorne. And Jon Snow, not a bastard but the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark whose identity had to be kept secret for his own safety.

With the support of Dorne, the riverlands, the Vale and the north (thanks to Sansa), the war should result in the happy reign of the three dragons.

I just hope Tyrion and Tommen survive, since Cersei and Jaime probably won't.

Just seems incredibly obvious for GRRM. I still think he has some crazy shit up his sleeve for the rest of the series. That outcome makes sense, but it's so predictable.

 

[Dresden]

The dragon's three heads will eat each other before it ever takes flight!

 

[apana]

I feel Patchface will be extremely important in some way for the next two books, he's gonna do something majorly evil. I don't really care that Jon's parents are likely Rhaegar and Lyanna. It's not all that interesting to me because we see that in a lot of stories, "OMG this kid that nobody liked is actually the son of a beloved Prince and his secret love." I'd prefer if he was just the son of some fisherwoman, ultimate troll by George RR Martin.

 

[agrajag]

Jon Snow isn't dead. He will be healed/rescued/resurrected by Melisandre. "Killing him" was just the way to honorably discharge him from the Night's Watch. He has to live because he is the ultimate (yet pretty obvious twist).

The dragon has three heads. Daenerys, the pure Targaryen with her dragons. Prince Aegon, who is also the child of Ella of Dorne. And Jon Snow, not a bastard but the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark whose identity had to be kept secret for his own safety.

With the support of Dorne, the riverlands, the Vale and the north (thanks to Sansa), the war should result in the happy reign of the three dragons.

I just hope Tyrion and Tommen survive, since Cersei and Jaime probably won't.

That still makes him a bastard, only Rhaegar's bastard instead of Ned's.

 

[apana]

That still makes him a bastard, only Rhaegar's bastard instead of Ned's.

Depends on whether or not Rhaegar married Lyanna before he made sweet love to her. Targaryens could practice polygamy I think.

 

[Cromat]

Far too cliched/convenient imo. I think Jon is still alive, or will be after Melisandre has her way with him. She clearly knew what was going to happen to him that night; the reason she didn't intervene is because she needs Jon at his weakest point to have some influence.

I still think Aegon is a fake. His quick victories (taking Storm's End in such small time especially) tell me he's being set up for a big fall, Martin style.

I agree that it's rather predictable but it's really been alluded to heavily.
When Dany sees the vision of Rhaegar and his wife naming Aegon, Rhaegar mistakes his son for the prince that was promised, but also says that there must be another (prince), since the dragon has three heads.

The "song of ice and fire" also points to Jon Snow. Ice = Starks, the wall and so on. Fire = Targaryrens, Melisandre etc. And there's the part about Lyanna Stark's death and the promise Eddard made her (please raise my baby as your bastard).

 

[arglebargle]

whew, finally finished up and can participate in this thread. i only started reading the series in august. i started the first episode of the show (in large part because of the new yorker article on grrm) and shut it off mid way through when i realized i should just read the books. now i have 50 pages of thread to read and ill be on the same page as all of you.

Understandable. I stopped reading for two weeks after the Red Wedding I was so pissed off. Don't stop posting, it's great to get new people into this thread.

i stopped briefly at that part also, but it was because i thought they killed arya rather than because they killed robb and catelyn. i liked robb and wanted him to retake the north, but losing arya would have been too much to handle.

 

[tokkun]

I still think Aegon is a fake. His quick victories (taking Storm's End in such small time especially) tell me he's being set up for a big fall, Martin style.

Did he actually take Storm's End in the ADWD? I thought that they announced they were marching on it, with Aegon insisting that he command, but I don't remember it actually playing out in the book.

 

[tmdorsey]

Did he actually take Storm's End in the ADWD? I thought that they announced they were marching on it, with Aegon insisting that he command, but I don't remember it actually playing out in the book.

Yeah, I think he was just marching for it.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

I still think Aegon is a fake. His quick victories (taking Storm's End in such small time especially) tell me he's being set up for a big fall, Martin style.

He's Magister Illyrio's son. Illyrio's wife was a Blackfyre. That's why Illyrio was so sad to not get to see him on his trip. Also why there are kids clothes in Illyrio's house that Tyrion wears. I'm sure there are better clue's out there.

 

[tokkun]

He's Magister Illyrio's son. Illyrio's wife was a Blackfyre. That's why Illyrio was so sad to not get to see him on his trip. Also why there are kids clothes in Illyrio's house that Tyrion wears. I'm sure there are better clue's out there.

I didn't feel like there was any indication that Aegon was knowingly lying about who he is. If he had grown up as Illyrio's son to that age, he would remember it.

 

[Pollux]

I didn't feel like there was any indication that Aegon was knowingly lying about who he is. If he had grown up as Illyrio's son to that age, he would remember it.

Agreed. I think there is a real possibility that he IS Aegon. Wouldn't be surprised if he weren't, but right now I'm just betting that he is.

 

[gutshot]

Did he actually take Storm's End in the ADWD? I thought that they announced they were marching on it, with Aegon insisting that he command, but I don't remember it actually playing out in the book.

Ooo, I get to use spoilers in the unmarked spoiler thread! Aren't I special?

TWOW spoilers:

Spoiler

GRRM read an early chapter from TWOW recently. It was an Arianne chapter and she was traveling to Griffin's Roost to meet with Connington. Upon arrival she learns that Aegon has successfully seized Storm's End and Connington has gone to meet him there. Now whether the information she was given is faulty or not, who knows, but there ya go.

Personally, I hope that Aegon is the real deal. When he first appeared I had hoped he would turn out to be a fake, only because it seemed a bit late in the game to introduce such a major player like that and with really no hinting whatsoever. It felt cheap to me. But by the end of the book, Dany had annoyed me so much, while Aegon is actually getting shit done, that I'm rooting for him now. Plus I like Connington, and the Golden Company has the most badass words in the series.

Beneath the gold, the bitter steel.

 

[Emerson]

Ooo, I get to use spoilers in the unmarked spoiler thread! Aren't I special?

TWOW spoilers:

Spoiler

GRRM read an early chapter from TWOW recently. It was an Arianne chapter and she was traveling to Griffin's Roost to meet with Connington. Upon arrival she learns that Aegon has successfully seized Storm's End and Connington has gone to meet him there. Now whether the information she was given is faulty or not, who knows, but there ya go.

Personally, I hope that Aegon is the real deal. When he first appeared I had hoped he would turn out to be a fake, only because it seemed a bit late in the game to introduce such a major player like that and with really no hinting whatsoever. It felt cheap to me. But by the end of the book, Dany had annoyed me so much, while Aegon is actually getting shit done, that I'm rooting for him now. Plus I like Connington, and the Golden Company has the most badass words in the series.

Beneath the gold, the bitter steel.

Agreed all around. Although regarding the hints, a lot of people predicted that Aegon wasn't dead so there must have been some.

It's funny to me that so many people thought that but now that it happened everybody is convinced it's not really him. Personally I'd bet good money he's real.

 

[gutshot]

Agreed all around. Although regarding the hints, a lot of people predicted that Aegon wasn't dead so there must have been some.

It's funny to me that so many people thought that but now that it happened everybody is convinced it's not really him. Personally I'd bet good money he's real.

I think most of the evidence for the "Baby Aegon is Alive" crowd came from when GRRM began reading the early ADWD chapters. This dates back to pre-AFFC days, so the theory has been around for a while, despite only really getting strongly hinted at at the start of ADWD. The only other hint that I can thing of that came in earlier books was the appearance of "the mummer's dragon" in Dany's House of the Undying visions. But this is only a very vague hint that provided no concrete evidence to link it to Aegon. I just think it was a cheap reveal, especially if he turns out to be the real Aegon. But I'm still rooting he is real, as contradictory as that is.

 

[Binabik15]

What if John is the bastard of Benjen Stark and Ashara Dayne? Ned had to promise Lyanna to raise him as his own bastard for whatever reason. Oh snap!

Seriously, why had Benjen leave for the wall? Which Stark had a little something something with Lady Dayne? Barristan never says.

 

[gutshot]

What if John is the bastard of Benjen Stark and Ashara Dayne? Ned had to promise Lyanna to raise him as his own bastard for whatever reason. Oh snap!

Seriously, why had Benjen leave for the wall? Which Stark had a little something something with Lady Dayne? Barristan never says.

In the Reed kids' story it was Ned (the shy one) who danced with Ashara.

 

[tmdorsey]

What if John is the bastard of Benjen Stark and Ashara Dayne? Ned had to promise Lyanna to raise him as his own bastard for whatever reason. Oh snap!

Seriously, why had Benjen leave for the wall? Which Stark had a little something something with Lady Dayne? Barristan never says.

EDIT:Beaten

 

[elysianalartist]

Were Lyanna's features ever described? I assumed she had the "Stark" brown hair but I couldn't find in any of the books where her features were described. The R&L theory is certianly interesting one for sure! Reading the link from above has given me a new anticipation for the upcoming books!! The only thing giving me reservations about the R&L theory is John having black hair. Here's to hoping WoW isn't 10 years away :\

 

[apana]

I remember reading this in grade school but I just recalled recently, in Norse Mythology didn't the world start from ice and fire?

 

[neoanarch]

Were Lyanna's features ever described? I assumed she had the "Stark" brown hair but I couldn't find in any of the books where her features were described. The R&L theory is certianly interesting one for sure! Reading the link from above has given me a new anticipation for the upcoming books!! The only thing giving me reservations about the R&L theory is John having black hair. Here's to hoping WoW isn't 10 years away :\

I think the closest we get to a description of Lyanna is everyone mentioning how much Arya looks like her.

 

[TCRS]

GRRM Interview:

[Q:] I'll speak up for all of your impatient readers and ask: What are you working on these days, aside from the eagerly awaited The Winds of Winter?

[GRRM:] The book tour took up a lot of time. I know some writers can write on the road, but I'm not one of them. I have about 100 pages done for the next book, which was mostly pages I had finished [for A Dance With Dragons] and decided to push back. I'll return to that in January.

http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2011/10/george_rr_martin_on_his_favori.html

 

[Emerson]

I thought this part of that interview was interesting as well:

Some of the developments in A Dance With Dragons open the possibility that some characters may be able to influence events that have already happened. Are you leaving open the possibility that the past might be malleable?

[Long pause.] It's not something I care to give away. I will say that the past and the present and the future are all kind of one continuum, and there are different ways of looking at it. The past is always with us.

 

[apana]

I remember reading this in grade school but I just recalled recently, in Norse Mythology didn't the world start from ice and fire?

To add onto my post. In Norse mythology there is an apocalyptic battle called Ragnarok where the gods are killed by frost giants and fire giants end up burning the world. The world is then flooded and reborn in Spring. Two humans hid in trees and then when the Spring came they repopulated the Earth.

I think this story may give some clues about the future events of A Song of Ice and Fire if George was influenced by Norse mythology. The Others are ice creatures, like the frost giants, and could bring about an end to society. Bran is living connected to the trees and hiding out, perhaps he and a few others will be the only survivors.

 

[scar tissue]

Some of the developments in A Dance With Dragons open the possibility that some characters may be able to influence events that have already happened. Are you leaving open the possibility that the past might be malleable?

Which developments would that be? Must've slipped by me, I tend to miss out on these kinds of details

 

[ultron87]

Which developments would that be? Must've slipped by me, I tend to miss out on these kinds of details

I think it is the fact that Bran might be able to talk to people in the past through the weir trees.

 

[Dresden]

"Dad! It's me, Bran from the future. Don't lose your head!"

 

[Puddles]

I guess I'm one of the stupid few who never put together this theory of Jon being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Was anything even mentioned about Rhaegar and Lyanna having a thing besides Rhaegar declaring her after winning that one tournament or whatever?

I've always been a fan of the Ned + Lyanna = Jon theory myself.

 

[suzu]

^eww. lol.

 

[Kaladin]

So in my reading of the series, I just made it to the Red Wedding. I mean damn. I generally hated Catelyn chapters because she was always whining or mourning about something, but damn. For her and Robb to go out like that.....

 

[Puddles]

Robb's death was pretty hard for me to take. I identified with him like no one else in the series.

 

[gutshot]

So in my reading of the series, I just made it to the Red Wedding. I mean damn. I generally hated Catelyn chapters because she was always whining or mourning about something, but damn. For her and Robb to go out like that.....

Yes, it's quite the twist. FYI you probably shouldn't be in this thread, the spoiler tagged thread is thataway --------------> http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=210654

 

[Kaladin]

Robb's death was pretty hard for me to take. I identified with him like no one else in the series.

For me it wasn't so much Robb's death, but more what they did to him after he died.

Yes, it's quite the twist. FYI you probably shouldn't be in this thread, the spoiler tagged thread is thataway --------------> http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=210654

Thanks, I don't mind spoilers that much though....I know horrible things are going to happen. Hell, I even knew of the red wedding and Robb's death in this book (even if I didn't know the two were connected) and it still shocked me when I got to it (multiple weddings and all, I guess).

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

"Dad! It's me, Bran from the future. Don't lose your head!"

That's why Ned was always trying to be calm and rational. Unfortunately he took the warning the wrong way.

 

[TCRS]

So in my reading of the series, I just made it to the Red Wedding. I mean damn. I generally hated Catelyn chapters because she was always whining or mourning about something, but damn. For her and Robb to go out like that.....

 

[suzu]

For me it wasn't so much Robb's death, but more what they did to him after he died.

This for me. Robb's actual death didn't effect me much... he wasn't even a POV character! I'll probably feel differently for the tv show version though. lol.

 

[Kaladin]

This for me. Robb's actual death didn't effect me much... he wasn't even a POV character! I'll probably feel differently for the tv show version though. lol.

That's going to be a huge moment on tv. I can see a sequel to the famous "They killed my man Ned" video coming.

 

[gutshot]

That's going to be a huge moment on tv. I can see a sequel to the famous "They killed my man Ned" video coming.

I've heard that Larry was spoiled on the Red Wedding, unfortunately, thanks to anonymous internet douchebags.

 

[tmdorsey]

After the Red Wedding, I literally had to put the book down for a few minutes to grasp what I had just read. What was really cold-blooded was Walder Frey talking about "I know what's it's like to be young and impetuous" or something to that effect and the whole shit with Grey Wind's head eventhough though Dany saw a vision of him like that earlier. That was just uncalled for. That scene in the show is definitely going be as big or bigger than Ned's death.


I truly hate the Freys and Boltons and hope they get it bad.

 

[arglebargle]

robbs death affected me because i had been reading the books as though the starks were the protagonists we were supposed to identify with. the chances of the starks coming out on top have decreased markedly over the course of the series.

as i mentioned earlier, i briefly stopped reading when i thought robb and arya were both killed at (or near) the red wedding because they seemed like the two characters most likely to return the starks to glory (also arya is a great character).

none of this is to say i have any predictions for where i think grrm will take the series, but i really do enjoy reading some of the stuff you guys and others have come up with. and im in the camp that didnt realize i was supposed to think jon was the child of lyanna and rhaegar. guess im just dense.

 

[Apath]

Well, they should both end at 7 books.

 

[tmdorsey]

as i mentioned earlier, i briefly stopped reading when i thought robb and arya were both killed at (or near) the red wedding because they seemed like the two characters most likely to return the starks to glory (also arya is a great character).

It's funny with this series how somethings I catch that others miss and how others catch things I miss. Like I didn't think for a minute that the Hound killed Arya when hit her with his axe.

 

[apana]

I think killing off important characters is one of the things which makes this series stronger. Good guys drop like flies all the time in real life, it's important to show that. I think a few more good characters will die by the end but it will still be a happy ending because they will end up achieving their goals.

 

[gutshot]

I think killing off important characters is one of the things which makes this series stronger. Good guys drop like flies all the time in real life, it's important to show that. I think a few more good characters will die by the end but it will still be a happy ending because they will end up achieving their goals.

George has long-maintained that the ending will be "bittersweet." So yes, I suspect a few well-loved characters will end up dying.