-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
- Thread starter Pollux
- Start date
- Status
choodi
Banned
Yes, this!Kenak said:
Theon's character to me is all about identity. He is not a Stark, but when he returns to the Iron Islands, it is also obvious that he is no longer a Greyjoy either.
This loss of identity led him to what he did at Winterfell in a vain attempt to prove to himself who he was.
Right now he has been stripped of all identity and is the thing called Reek.
Theon is now on his way to having an identity of his own for the first time in his life.
If you feel no sympathy for Theon, you need to read all of his chapters again so you understand how he felt at being rejected by his own people after so long being an outsider in Winterfell.
The Albatross
Member
I think a lot of the dislike of ADWD comes from the moment that you realize, about 60% of the way through, that none of the stories are going to reach any climax in this book... and that GRRM is fucking around. He's got 2 books left and a ton to wrap up, and if his penchant for weaving in less relevant streams of story persists, then we'll never get a fitting end to the books.
If there's one thing I'm happy for, ADWD cured me for patiently awaiting the Winds of Winter.
Aye. Theon really became a great character in ADWD. He's really one of the best characters of the book and, now, the series.
If there's one thing I'm happy for, ADWD cured me for patiently awaiting the Winds of Winter.
Aye. Theon really became a great character in ADWD. He's really one of the best characters of the book and, now, the series.
Kenak said:
Pretty much. I enjoyed his chapters in ADWD. He obviously feels remorseful for everything he has done as he's remembering his time at Winterfell. I hope he can redeem himself.. maybe by getting back at the Boltons before he eventually gets killed off (he will definitely die somehow)! Heh.choodi said:
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
People forget that these last two books consist of the stuff that GRRM wanted to skip in the first place. I still think they're great but beyond that I have full confidence in the rest of the story, the broad strokes of which he has known for years. My only concern is that he gets them written in a reasonable amount of time. Once they come out I know the story will be excellent.
petethepanda
Member
The Albatross said:
This.Polari said:
I don't know, guys...
Is Jon dead? I doubt it, just because when he usually writes a death he hammers it home.
Is Stannis dead? I'm not sure but it's hard to imagine Mance being identified by Ramsay if he didn't get to the camp and fuck some shit up. Did Theon leave with his sister and Jeyne?
I did really enjoy the end, with Connington coming home. Should be interesting.
Also would have liked some word, any word at all, really, on whether or not the Knight of Flowers had survived.
Is Jon dead? I doubt it, just because when he usually writes a death he hammers it home.
Is Stannis dead? I'm not sure but it's hard to imagine Mance being identified by Ramsay if he didn't get to the camp and fuck some shit up. Did Theon leave with his sister and Jeyne?
I did really enjoy the end, with Connington coming home. Should be interesting.
Also would have liked some word, any word at all, really, on whether or not the Knight of Flowers had survived.
Am I the only one who found A Dance With Dragons to be a colossal disappointment? It took me months to finally go ahead and finish it (last week). The Dany chapters were more or less unsufferable.. I'm so fucking sick of that line about her being a young girl but blah blah.
Honestly, I had no problems at all with Feast and felt it was excellent but this one just did very little for me. I felt like the flow was just not there with this one.. the storyline's did not mesh well. Jon's potential death didn't help my overall thoughts on the book either. I'm sure Melisandre will find some way to save him or something which will arguably be more annoying than him truly dying.
Edit: It looks like I am not the only one, haha. I've avoided the threads until I finally finished.
Honestly, I had no problems at all with Feast and felt it was excellent but this one just did very little for me. I felt like the flow was just not there with this one.. the storyline's did not mesh well. Jon's potential death didn't help my overall thoughts on the book either. I'm sure Melisandre will find some way to save him or something which will arguably be more annoying than him truly dying.
Edit: It looks like I am not the only one, haha. I've avoided the threads until I finally finished.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
Meier said:
In ADWD Dany went from being annoying to painful. Even Tyrion managed to disappoint me a little.
I said it many times prior, its not the book we needed. If it came out when it was supposed, it would have been a better book. Both written and received. He wouldn't of had to recap like he did, and reintroduce many parts. Davos and Bran's first chapters are good ones, where its basically just recapping what they were originally doing 11 years ago. And the catch to them are, they basically leave you off right where they started anyways.
Then you had chapters from Feast, meant to close the cliffhangers only to drop new ones in. Nothing more than teases. Briennie is alive and is leading Jamie to Cait. That's it.
And the three core characters we all waited for, had many of the same problems Bran and Davos' had. They started off as recap. Jon's were brutal since it was just his perspective of the same events from Feast we got from Sam.
Tyrion's and Dany problems ties to the Met Knot, which is still unresolved. The only character who meant her was a one shot. The three big players for her are still MIA. All it did was set it up for the next book. Once again, a massive tease.
Other problems like fake deaths, every chapter being a goddamn cliffhanger, repetition, etc.
Here is the thing, I though the stuff be the smaller lords in each region playing was fantastic. The north finally had a face outside Bolton and Stark. Its the same thing as Feast was, it built up the world around them. But it also did that at the cost of the main storyline characters entering into a stasis
I'll agree with the above too, Feast was better. The pacing, plot, and focus on the characters was stronger.
Then you had chapters from Feast, meant to close the cliffhangers only to drop new ones in. Nothing more than teases. Briennie is alive and is leading Jamie to Cait. That's it.
And the three core characters we all waited for, had many of the same problems Bran and Davos' had. They started off as recap. Jon's were brutal since it was just his perspective of the same events from Feast we got from Sam.
Tyrion's and Dany problems ties to the Met Knot, which is still unresolved. The only character who meant her was a one shot. The three big players for her are still MIA. All it did was set it up for the next book. Once again, a massive tease.
Other problems like fake deaths, every chapter being a goddamn cliffhanger, repetition, etc.
Here is the thing, I though the stuff be the smaller lords in each region playing was fantastic. The north finally had a face outside Bolton and Stark. Its the same thing as Feast was, it built up the world around them. But it also did that at the cost of the main storyline characters entering into a stasis
I'll agree with the above too, Feast was better. The pacing, plot, and focus on the characters was stronger.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Feast remains my least favorite by a wide margin. Sooo much filler.
And screw complete arcs, I'm reading one long book here. We got some stories tied off and people complain about those as if they don't matter.
Plus, Barristan the motherfucking Bold. Out of his element and *still* a boss.
Plus much better backstory/history stuff that's becoming more important as we get toward the end.
And screw complete arcs, I'm reading one long book here. We got some stories tied off and people complain about those as if they don't matter.
Plus, Barristan the motherfucking Bold. Out of his element and *still* a boss.
Plus much better backstory/history stuff that's becoming more important as we get toward the end.
The way ADWD started out with that incredible chapter about the Warg I thought it was gonna be the best book ever. Really most of the weakness of the book was with the Dany chapters and related stuff like Quentyn. I actually enjoyed the Tyrion chapters for the most part. The only thing I'm worried about now is whether the resolution to the story acrs is going to be something meaningful. Two books is really not a lot of space to resolve the stories considering all the different characters.
Pollux
Member
Hopefully it doesn't take him 6 years to write the next book.apana said:
Dany would have been fine if they had just cut 70% of her chapters out. There was too much too close together and too much of the same thing too close together for us to really give a damn about a teenage girl with a crush on the bad boy.
Dany is my favorite character and I don't necessarily think managing a city as a major plot was a bad idea, nor do I think the plot of the last two books has been uninteresting. I like where the characters are going and I don't mind a bit of 'down time' if GRRM has a plan for the plot and still aims to finish it within 7 books. My problem is just that it wasn't solved very well, as literature. The book should've been half the length it was - the plot could be the same and we'd avoid tiring of the endless internal monologues written in increasingly repetitive language.
I think the biggest problem from these last two books is the lack chapters from the stark kids. Arya gets 4 in both books combined, sansa gets 0 and I think bran gets 3 or 4 in ADWD. The problem is they were the characters whos arcs we cared about in the first three books and they got replaced by lesser characters like Quentyn, Victarion, Asha, Arianne, Brienne, and the others.
It was refreshing to get some different POVs, but Arya is probably the second most popular character with Tyrion being first, Sansa's story hit a high point in the third book, and Bran is where we get all our magic from. I think the lack of these storylines hurt the books.
Of course the cliffhanger endings and lack of movement in the narrative didn't help either (I'm looking at you Dany and Tyrion)
It was refreshing to get some different POVs, but Arya is probably the second most popular character with Tyrion being first, Sansa's story hit a high point in the third book, and Bran is where we get all our magic from. I think the lack of these storylines hurt the books.
Of course the cliffhanger endings and lack of movement in the narrative didn't help either (I'm looking at you Dany and Tyrion)
I'm very biased towards the North and Starks. I'm most interested in the stuff going on beyond the wall, that's where all the action is considering Bran's magical experiences and the Others vs Night's Watch. Not to mention that Theon/Reek in Winterfell chapters were probably the strongest in the book. I still like most of the characters from the South but the political intrigue stuff is no longer as gripping.
But then how would you know that the Sons of the Harpy were killing soldiers? Because the Sons of the Harpy were killing soldiers, you know, and if he didn't write that the Sons of the Harpy were killing soldiers, then how would you really, or could you, know that the Sons of the Harpy are killing soldiers? I mean, it's the Sons of the Harpy. You can't just write about the Sons of the Harpy without including the backstory of the Sons of the Harpy twenty times in the book, even if it's not about the Sons of the Harpy.zmoney said:
I think that the Martells are awful characters. There was a moment in AFFC where those chapters were close to getting cool, but then what's-his-name got run thru and Myrcella got her ear cut off and the SandSnakes were locked up but unlocked to reveal a plot and blah blah blah.
Also, if I have to read any more chapters about any Greyjoy without actual development happening in the plotline, I'm going to start burning books.
LegendofJoe
Member
I loved Victarion's chapters too, he can stay as a POV. His pious brother on the other hand, the sooner he dies the better.
Pollux
Member
jon bones said:
Mordeccai said:
Besides the obvious fan favorites of Arya, Tyrion, Jon, Sandor, Jaime, etc. There are actually a number of characters, including those that you mentioned, that are extremely awesome.
Victarion and Oberyn are both extremely badass. I was extremely pissed with Oberyn was killed, because he had the potential to be a Jaime Lannister-esque character on the side of the Starks. If there even is such a side any more. At least he could have been Jaime's foil in opposition to the Lannisters. When I say he could have been Jaime'esque I mean a completely badass warrior who fucks up anyone who gets in his way. Not that he's banging his sister and throwing children out the window.
Victarion is badass because he rolls around with a fucking battle axe chopping people up. He does need to grow a pair when it comes to dealing with Euron though.
With that being said I would also add Doran Martell to the list of badass characters. Not because of any physical prowess. We know that the dude can't even walk. But because I have to respect something about a man who is utterly devoted to his beliefs. He made the marriage contract with Viserys years earlier, and had been plotting the Baratheon/Lannister downfall for years. I think that this guy is a plotter close to the level of Littlefinger (if not on his level). Many will disagree, but the fact is we simply don't know what his plan is, or how much of his plan he has implemented. Part's of his plan failed, but that's a result of poor execution by his instruments (so to speak).
Dany was also a fucking idiot for throwing the marriage to Quentyn (who did redeem himself as a character but only needed to have two chapters at the most, and to be honest he didn't even NEED to be a POV character) away without a second thought and basically giving House Martell a big "Fuck You." Just because she was all horny for Daario. Dany really screwed herself over on that one.
If Dany would have pulled her head out of the Harpy's ass and looked towards her ultimate goal, she would have known (especially considering Selmy was providing her with information, and she had the ability to find out from others) that House Martell is literally the last man standing so to speak (with regards to the great houses that are currently and actively involved in the war for the Iron Throne. Sansa, if she marries Harry the Heir, and inherits the Vale and all of its forces, and then reveals herself as Sansa Stark and rallies the North, then she would also be able to majorly fuck stuff up).
The Tyrells are just waiting for an excuse to take our the Lannisters and Cersei, and they're also wrapped up in dealing with the Greyjoys. The Lannisters are still trying to put together the Riverlands, and are spread extremely thin. Stannis is off dying (or so we think) in a blizzard, and the Bolton's are stuck up North with "allies" that would betray them as soon as a viable opportunity arose.
The Martells are literally the LAST of the great houses/one of the seven kingdoms, not to be actively involved in the civil war. Their entire army is chilling in Dorne ready to rise up as soon as Dany had married Quentyn and came back to Westeros. Now Aegon (whether real or fake, doesn't matter at this point) has landed with Connington and the Golden Company and raised the Targaryan banners, and Dorne is probably going to declare for him. Dany really screwed herself over. Doran is not going to be very likely to support HER when there is an even more legitmate Targaryan claiming the throne, and after (as for as Doran is concerned) she spit on his offer to provide aid and through her actions (or inaction) led to the death of his son.
Also Aeron is pretty badass because I think he's going to play a major role as the story progresses and we get even more supernatural elements. At the moment the Old Gods are "reawakening" and exerting their power. I think with the new High Septon we'll see at least a couple examples of the Seven granting some sort of powers to their followers. We already have seen the Rhollar is back and kicking peoples asses. I think that within the next book or two we'll see the Drowned God asserting some type of influence at sea in support of the Greyjoys.
Also I'm willing to bet that Aeron is going to somehow get that horn that summons a Kraken and we'll see one of those things fuck shit up at some point. Correct me if I'm wrong but the reason the OLD (and I mean old as in kingdom of the first men/Bran the builder old) Greyjoys were able to control pretty much the entire western coast of Westeros and into the riverlands was because of their ability to control the Kraken right? But by the time that Aegon the Conquerer came over they no longer had that ability?
I think if they were still able to control Krakens then Pyke might not have fallen so easily.
If that's the case, and Dany thinks she can just roll over to Westeros with half grown dragons and conquer things then she has another thing coming. I know the Greyjoys aren't going to win in the long run, but I would love to see Dany try to make demands to the Greyjoys and then have a kraken come up and wreck things.
Another character that is extremely awesome, but doesn't get mentioned almost at all Archmaester Marwyn. If the theories about the Maesters being behind the death of the dragons, and the death of magic are true then what is his game with going to Dany? If not, then what does he hope to accomplish by advising a deposed Targaryan? Will Dany even have the common sense to listen to Marwyn (if he is there to provide good counsel and not just kill dragons and support the Maester's "grand plan" ---> If such a plan even exists)?
There are a number of other characters that deserve to be mentioned as awesome/badass even though they have been incredibly minor so far, but have the potential to be greater players, if not "major" players as the series reaches the climax and conclusion. By climax I'm referring to the actual invasion by the Others...(I think we assume THAT will be the climax, but we'll see.)
Sir Hamish
Member
zmoney said:
Don't forget House Arryn and the Lords of the Vale. They didn't get involved in the war at all and it was revealed that most of the Lords, particularly Bronze Yohn, were really pissed Lysa didn't send them off to help the Starks.
I'm not sure if it was in the books but I was under the impression they had fertile land, a large population and probably a pretty big army. An army which, like the Martell's, has yet to see any action in the war.
I'm guessing either Bronze Yohn will get rid of Littlefinger and ally himself with whatever Starks remain, or Littlefinger will kill Yohn and use the armies of the Vale as his personal force.
EDIT: Just re-read your post and noticed you did mention the Vale a wee bit. But I'd argue they are in the same position as House Martell, we just haven't seen much from their perspective yet.
Pollux
Member
Sir Hamish said:
The only reason I didn't classify the Vale with the other houses is because at the moment they have a major crisis of leadership. Otherwise, the Vale will really only matter in the grand scheme of things if and when Sansa marries Harry the Heir and then she reveals herself and asks the Lords of the Vale under Harry's leadership to go to war for her.
Until that point they're pretty much on the side lines waiting for the chips to fall in their on power struggles, and the majority of the Vale is more worried about that than what's happening in King's Landing.
The Martell's are actively involved in rebellion and have a large army. That's why I was saying they'r the "last one standing" that Dany could have really relied on, until she said "fuck you" and through her (in)action led to Quentyn's death. Doran WONT forget that, and he own't appreciate the fact that she spurned a Prince of Dorne for a mercenary who liked to fondle his daggers.
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
Marwyn the mage has one big thing going against him with regards to Dany. He was associated with the witch that killed Dany's baby and sustained Drogo's life. I want to see the fireworks when that bit of info gets out to Dany's ears.zmoney said:
zmoney said:
Regarding Dany, screwing herself by not marry Quentyn, She may or may not have. You forget she has sub 8000 Unsullied, Tyrion and the Second Sons, the Brazen Beasts, maybe the largest Dothraki khalasar, and 3 dragons. Not to mention she might get Victarion and his fleet on her side.
I think that would be enough to make a serious run at the throne if she even still wants it.
Sorry. I should have clarified.
By ADWD I hated the rest of the Martells and Victarion. Oberyn was awesome, of course, but now that he's dead, well, yeah.
I might, MIGHT get some satisfaction if what I think is happening actually comes to fruition: Zombie Gregor Clegane. Then the Martells will go apeshit... but yeah, I dunno. As of now, no thanks
By ADWD I hated the rest of the Martells and Victarion. Oberyn was awesome, of course, but now that he's dead, well, yeah.
I might, MIGHT get some satisfaction if what I think is happening actually comes to fruition: Zombie Gregor Clegane. Then the Martells will go apeshit... but yeah, I dunno. As of now, no thanks
AceBandage
Banned
Fuck
...
Fuck fuck fuck.
Rob and Cat just fucking got butchered...
Fuck this book.
...
Fuck fuck fuck.
Rob and Cat just fucking got butchered...
Fuck this book.
tmdorsey said:
Why do so many people think that Victarion will team up with Dany? Victarion is a douche who wants Dany as his personal sex slave while he rules and kills people. I cannot see that sitting well with Dany.
Then again, Dany has made a bunch of idiotic decisions, and violent assholes are totally her type.
But still, Dany doesn't want a husband to rule for her, she wants to rule. I can't see her and Victarion getting along peacefully.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
zmoney said:
Mirri mentioned that she was taught by Marwyn to Dany and Jorah back in A Game of Thrones. Whether Dany will remember that specific name or not will be the question.
AceBandage said:
lol dude, you do realize that this thread is full of unmarked book 4 and 5 spoilers, right? there is another thread for the other books, but you have to use spoiler tags:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=210654q
AceBandage
Banned
TCRS said:
Oh, sorry. The title said for ALL BOOKS, so I assumed it meant ALL BOOKS.
I'm not reading through the thread, just posting now and then.
Sorry, that came off more harsh than I intended. A bit pissed off and tired haha.
brianjones
Member
Meier said:
yeah it sucked imo
there were so many jon snow chapters but in the end it felt like barely anything happened
btw whats the deal with asshai and "the shadow".. wth is a shadowbinder? is it like that jutsu in naruto
I thought both AFFC and ADWD were good to great (depending on the storyline at issue), but some major, major shit needs to pay off in The Winds of Winter.
If some of the big storylines aren't resolved or at least moved forward in a big way, my patience will start to wear thin. But when books 4 and 5 are taken as a whole, I'm pretty satisfied.
If some of the big storylines aren't resolved or at least moved forward in a big way, my patience will start to wear thin. But when books 4 and 5 are taken as a whole, I'm pretty satisfied.
- Status