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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
- Thread starter Pollux
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LegendofJoe
Member
What irks me the most about GRRM's handling of the Starks is how he teased us throughout ADWD with the possibility of Jon rising to take Robb's place only to lead us to the precipice before pushing us right off it. Seriously, there better be some payoff for the Starks before the end. Their seemingly endless stream of bad luck really started to annoy me by the end of Dance.
Yes, it will end up like The Dark Tower.
As an aside, I'm reading "On Writing" by Stephen King right now. While it has a lot of great advice about prose and dialogue, King says that he never spends any time outlining and feels that "plot" is unimportant. When I was reading that part, all I could think was "Yeah, that's why your endings always suck, Steve."
As an aside, I'm reading "On Writing" by Stephen King right now. While it has a lot of great advice about prose and dialogue, King says that he never spends any time outlining and feels that "plot" is unimportant. When I was reading that part, all I could think was "Yeah, that's why your endings always suck, Steve."
bluemax said:
SMH, George always mantained he knows what the major plot points are he just doesn't know exactly what route he will take to get there. The analogy he used is if you are driving across the country you don't know what inns you will stop at, what detours you will take etc.
LegendofJoe
Member
I don't think you need to have all the details planned out for the ending to a book, but you should at least have a general idea of where the characters will be at the end. And from what GRRM has said he knows what the ending to the series will look like. He is however taking a lot of detours on the path he's taking to get to that ending.
bluemax said:
I know you're probably just trolling, but I'm gonna respond anyway.
George has called himself a gardener, yes, but that doesn't mean he has no idea where the story is going. He has also compared his writing style to going on a road trip, he knows his ultimate destination, but doesn't know exactly how he will get there, what stops and detours he may take along the way. He has had an ending for the story in mind since the very beginning.
EDIT: Beaten twice over. Although I will add that I can't wait to see what clues and allusions to the ending that George snuck into the first book(s). They will likely seem so obvious in hindsight. It's one of the things I love about George's writing.
LegendofJoe
Member
ultron87 said:
Agree times a million. If we find out that Jon is outright dead in Winds of Winter I will stop reading and return the book.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
There are people who still think Jon is actually dead?ultron87 said:
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
Whew! Okay. I agree with your point, though, about killing characters being a balance act. You can see how killing off Ned and Robb drove the story forward, but if he were to kill off someone like Jon or Dany the story could grind to a halt. Could some of the characters coming to the fore in the later books take their roles if they died? Sure, but it would be incredibly awkward and there's little backing for such a transition.ultron87 said:
Then again I just finished re-reading ASOS and the first chapter of AFFC, "The Prophet" kind of proves me wrong. "I just shit on all your favorite characters. Now here, have some irrelevant character on an island you've never heard of."
arglebargle
Member
tmdorsey said:
i thought it for about a minute. i didnt stop reading for long.
i also dont think jon is dead. when people die we are usually pretty sure about it. like ned was beheaded while we read; robb and catelyn were killed in front of us. conversely, the hound hit arya but thats all we knew. he teases a bit with this, but it seems like there are a lot of non-fatal woundings that are meant to be cliffhangers, and jons just feels like that to me.
arglebargle said:
Oh yeah. I admit for a minute after I read the passage with Jon's stabbing, I thought he might be dead more so because of what's happened with the other Starks, but then I thought better about it. Martin also pretty much gave it away in an interview after the release of the book that Jon isn't really dead.
arglebargle
Member
suzu said:
as ive kinda said, it was only arya who made me feel that way. i guess it would have been in keeping with the way he has written the books (no one is safe, nothing is sacred) but she is a great character and to have her die so unceremoniously after surviving all her adventures...man i would have been pissed.
i should mention that i read all five books since mid-august. i hadnt even really thought of reading them before but i eventually got to a critical mass of recommendations and broke down. then read them all in about two months.
scar tissue
Banned
It just occured to me that Quentyn Martell's story is expertly crafted so that nerds may relate to it, only to come to its hilarious conclusion.
He is a typical nice guy, kinda meh-ish in the looks department and the woman he loves lusts after archetypal bad boys. Then it seems he will win over the love of Dany by doing something brave and bold...only to fail horribly and die a horrific death.
Good job, G.R.R. Martin!
I hereby name Quentyn Martell a honorary girl-age gaffer.
He is a typical nice guy, kinda meh-ish in the looks department and the woman he loves lusts after archetypal bad boys. Then it seems he will win over the love of Dany by doing something brave and bold...only to fail horribly and die a horrific death.
Good job, G.R.R. Martin!
I hereby name Quentyn Martell a honorary girl-age gaffer.
tmdorsey said:
I haven't read any interviews, but my immediate reaction (actually it was after about an hour lying in bed in shock) was he's going to 'become' Ghost. I don't see the point of the prologue otherwise.
This might have already been discussed I didn't follow any threads as I took a long time to read it.
Also about the deaths, in particular those of the Starks, I don't it's fair to say they are an unlucky family. Ned had his chance and blew it with his fairy tale view of honour. Maybe unlucky to be beheaded, but otherwise he would have just been left in a dungeon forever.
Robb never lost a battle, but was dumb enough to turn his back on a marriage pact holding his army together for teenage love like in a fairy tale (a theme develops...).
Cat thought the Frey's had forgiven them (YO BREAD AND SALT, CAN'T TOUCH THIS).
Jon went to the Wall expecting to join this legendary organization, found it to be shit. Took a command he didn't want in a tough situation and then turned his back
cloak ahahahahahaah
They all had too much focus on one part of a situation, I don't think any of the deaths were unfair.
Can't wait for the next book. I don't believe Stannis is really dead, but the North is fucked. The one dude who could restore some order just died after letting a load of Wildlings past the Wall, the Watch doesn't have a real leader and Winter is really coming.
I only started reading at Christmas so this is my first experience knowing how it feels
scar tissue said:It just occured to me that Quentyn Martell's story is expertly crafted so that nerds may relate to it, only to come to its hilarious conclusion.
He is a typical nice guy, kinda meh-ish in the looks department and the woman he loves lusts after archetypal bad boys. Then it seems he will win over the love of Dany by doing something brave and bold...only to fail horribly and die a horrific death.
Good job, G.R.R. Martin!
I hereby name Quentyn Martell a honorary girl-age gaffer.
Yeah, yeah, okay we get it, nice guys finish last. Quentyn Martell should have been cut out of the story for the most part.
arglebargle
Member
f0rk said:I only started reading at Christmas so this is my first experience knowing how it feels
i started reading in august and im just now starting to realize what the original fans must have been going through for the past 5 years. reading them all back to back like that for the first time was awesome, but its terrible to know im probably going to have to wait until 2018 or something absurd to continue the story.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
TCRS said:
I have a really hard time getting past calling the warg a Gary Stu. In what way?
Does this really get funny or is it just "LOL I hated ADWD too!"
Edit: nope, it doesn't get funny.
Dany's storyline simply needs direction. I don't think it's necessary for her to redeem Meereen for everything to move forward... As GRRM has made clear, the city may be a lost cause and too set in its ways for her to make any real changes.
Please just let Dany team up with Victarion, Tyrion, and return to Dorne to begin the real battle. While that would be the most logical and un-GRRM-like way for the story to progress, something needs to happen STAT for me to continue to care about her story.
Please just let Dany team up with Victarion, Tyrion, and return to Dorne to begin the real battle. While that would be the most logical and un-GRRM-like way for the story to progress, something needs to happen STAT for me to continue to care about her story.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
ultron87 said:
While I would love to see Dany randomly die it would definitely make everything that came before it pointless. Her story needs to go somewhere and hopefully it does in the next book.
AngmarsKing701
Member
Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:
This was the biggest disappointment in ADWD. Why isn't Dany moving? Boooooring. Definitely went all Twilight-y there with the "I'm a teenage girl and he's such a hunk" bullshit. The goddamn novel has Dragons in the title and they're locked up in the fucking basement most of the time.
Cornballer
Member
Sir Hamish
Member
Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:
What about having her take after her father and go all crazy. I'd love that. The books have highlighted that she's a far better conqueror than she is a ruler and she's at her most effective when she's unleashing her dragons and generally just decimating her enemies. I'd like to see her bringing fire and blood to Westeros.
Jon isn't dead. His "death" scene was vague at best and he just happens to be with Melisandre aka "My red demon god is known to bring people back to life". Also Stannis is probably dead and now Melisandre will realize that she got the prophecy all wrong (meaning that Jon is the prophesied prince).
I believe there's a good chance that Dany would die after/during winning her throne, but it won't matter since Jon would inherit her (Aegon would serve his purpose and probably also die, he's kind of a douche). I'm guessing Arya and Sansa would also survive.
Of course, all of the adult Lannisters are going to die (probably Cersei and Jamie or even all three in some dramatic scene). Tommen and Myrcella are cute and harmless so they'll probably live because it'd be a shame to kill the whole house.
This ends the plot on a rather high note, in which the Starks and Targaryens eventually win together even though they suffered losses. The dragon has three heads - Dany and Aegon would play their parts in winning back the throne for the Targaryens, but Jon would end up as the actual king. If Jon is the actual son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then he is the source of all of this mess to begin with (since Robert's rebellion started after Rhaegar supposedly kidnapped Lyanna). His is the song of ice (stark) and fire (targaryen), thus ending the series as intended.
I believe there's a good chance that Dany would die after/during winning her throne, but it won't matter since Jon would inherit her (Aegon would serve his purpose and probably also die, he's kind of a douche). I'm guessing Arya and Sansa would also survive.
Of course, all of the adult Lannisters are going to die (probably Cersei and Jamie or even all three in some dramatic scene). Tommen and Myrcella are cute and harmless so they'll probably live because it'd be a shame to kill the whole house.
This ends the plot on a rather high note, in which the Starks and Targaryens eventually win together even though they suffered losses. The dragon has three heads - Dany and Aegon would play their parts in winning back the throne for the Targaryens, but Jon would end up as the actual king. If Jon is the actual son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then he is the source of all of this mess to begin with (since Robert's rebellion started after Rhaegar supposedly kidnapped Lyanna). His is the song of ice (stark) and fire (targaryen), thus ending the series as intended.
Pollux
Member
Cromat said:
While I wouldn't complain if that's how the series goes....i must ask you something?
You do realize that Martin gets off on our agony of seeing what we think is going to happen not happen? And then he likes to rip out our expectations in the most brutal way possible....
zmoney said:
Yeah that's true
Though in hindsight I don't see how I could believe that Robb ever stood a chance. He was really underdeveloped if he was to be the main good guy.
Also, there's a big chance of the series ending with a cyclical ending. Meaning that X has assumed the throne and everyone's happy, fast forward two years, there's some stupid tournament, love, plots, rebellion, power and lies, and the game begins anew.
Plus Dorne is out an heir and who knows how this will affect Doran and what that may mean for his plans with the Sand Snakes in King's Landing.gutshot said:
People don't see an immediate effect and cry "This was pointless." We can only ever be sure if something was pointless when the series ends and all has been revealed. Quentyn's death could have devastating effects for all we know.
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