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[Moobabe]

Console and software sales > Kinect advertising revenue

Sure - I'm just talking hypothetically if there are such agreements in place.

 

[OnimaruXLR]

Y'know, if multiverses really exist, I'm sure there's a world out there where everyone is fine with this because Microsoft funnels all the money back into game development so that there can be amazing new titles that forge ahead with new creative heights, produced under a massive swell of financial resources

But in our shitty universe, Microsoft will probably throw some of that money at ESPN and other media companies to get stupid exclusives about shit I don't care about, and maybe spend the rest building a couple of helicopters made out of solid gold and trying to resurrect the Zune brand with another failed piece of hardware

 

[dose]

Lol at the Eurogamer article:

We're a leader in the world of privacy, I think you'll find.

In invading it, sure.

 

[p3tran]

How would this work if MS has "sold" the device to advertisers with Kinect as a big selling point?

well, right now it appears to me that not all xbone owners will connect the stupid camera,
but there will still be many that do.

so, I guess for ms advertising it breaks down to leeching personal data only from that segment that is not wise enough.

still, its much better than nothing for microsoft advertising, plus they will sell it like "phase 1" or something to their advertising customers. i remember reading about some deals microsoft did with large multinationals like unilever for nuads, and I've read nothing saying that these deals where broken or something... so...

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

What like there are no ads in games now?



I honestly can't understand peoples aversion to all advertising, oppose bad advertising, intrusive advertising absolutely. But we owe this whole site to advertising, your data is how you pay for your internet.

This site is "free", Xbox One is $500 and $60 a year.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I'm convinced that we (the core gamer) are not the target audience of Kinect. They need us to establish this system on the market, but what happens then? I have a very bad feeling for this...

What bad feeling? That they'll be watching/spying on gamers? Selling yours and ithers voice data to third parties? Selling purchase preference data, etc?

This site is "free", Xbox One is $600 and $60 a year.

It's $600?

 

[nib95]

I'm convinced that we (the core gamer) are not the target audience of Kinect. They need us to establish this system on the market, but what happens then? I have a very bad feeling for this...

In all honesty, I don't really trust Microsoft at all right now. In all the PR they use they keep referring to the DRM and draconian policies as too forward thinking, and indirectly blaming us the consumer for the mis step, eg, we weren't ready for Microsoft's shit, it's not that the shit stinks, but that they just shat too quickly for us. And that also makes me nervous.

 

[MMaRsu]

What bad feeling? That they'll be watching/spying on gamers? Selling yours and ithers voice data to third parties? Selling purchase preference data, etc?

Sure why not?

 

[Freki]

No, Medhi did not mention any biometric data, you cannot identify someone by whether they like something or not, or how their body reacts to something. Biometrics are biological traits that can be used to uniquely identify you over someone else. They would have to be sending an identifier along with this data for advertisers to tie them together. Whether they will do this or not will be discoverable given the fact that these things are flowing through our personal networks. Just like things that are being sent from our phones are usually discovered by someone snooping packets.

We could then go further down the rabbit hole and say that perhaps MS won't send the data immediately during or after an ad(because that would be easily identifiable, discoverable, and decryptable). They will hold the data and then send at some other time where the data is harder to parse from other data.

What makes you think that Microsoft won't encrypt the data and/or the connection?

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

It's $600?

Typo

 

[JaggedSac]

What makes you think that Microsoft won't encrypt the data and/or the connection?

Of course it would be. Encryptions can be decrypted.

 

[Freki]

Of course it would be. Encryptions can be decrypted.

Microsoft gives out encryption keys to the NSA, not gamers. If the encryption is well implemented there's nothing anyone can do about it without the keys.

 

[p3tran]

What makes you think that Microsoft won't encrypt the data and/or the connection?

Of course it would be. Encryptions can be decrypted.

they dont even have to encrypt full data sets if they really are doing this and they want to be stealth. you wont see a big bulk of data leaving if you are looking over your network.
I believe their API has a lot of stuff related to human behavior as a true/false. (ex. smiling: yes/no). so basically, if someone wanted to, they could make these very small chunks (bytes) where each bit would be a flag(yes/no) about your reaction to something they measure. and if data leaves like this, good luck discovering it.

 

[JaggedSac]

Microsoft gives out encryption keys to the NSA, not gamers. If the encryption is well implemented there's nothing anyone can do about it without the keys.

Would just take a lot of time.

they dont even have to encrypt full data sets if they really are doing this and they want to be stealth. you wont see a big bulk of data leaving if you are looking over your network.
I believe their API has a lot of stuff related to human behavior as a true/false. (ex. smiling: yes/no). so basically, if someone wanted to, they could make these very small chunks (bytes) where each bit would be a flag(yes/no) about your reaction to something they measure. and if data leaves like this, good luck discovering it.

This is probably exactly what they will be doing. But discovering what those flags are is simply a case of trial and error. Much like how people worked out the first Kinect's USB interface. The question is, will they be sending identifying information along with these other bits of information? Knowing that a certain amount of people were actually watching your advertisement is very informative regardless of whether they can tie that information to a particular person.

 

[Freki]

Would just take a lot of time.

Yes of course - depending on the implemented algorithms and the strength of the key this could range from basically instant to 1000+ years... so potentially safe enough...

edit: as an example - you want to brute force a 512bit key

you have a quad core 4.0Ghz quadcore processor which can check a key every cycle (completely unrealistic - way to optimistic)
=> you can check 1.6 * 10^10 keys per second

512 bit key means 1.34*10^154 possibilites

=> you need 8.38*10^143 seconds to check all possibilites => on average you'll need 4.19*10^143 seconds to guess the correct key

=> 1.33*10^136 years to brute force a 512bit key on average with one 4GHz Quad core CPU... gl&hf

 

[MercuryLS]

This along with dashboard ads for McDonalds/Axe/Doritos/whatever is the #1 reason I won't touch Xbox One. They progressively made Xbox 360 worse with more ads, they'll do the same thing with Xbox One and take it to the next level with Kinect-enabled super ads.

 

[p3tran]

This is probably exactly what they will be doing. But discovering what those flags are is simply a case of trial and error. Much like how people worked out the first Kinect's USB interface. The question is, will they be sending identifying information along with these other bits of information? Knowing that a certain amount of people were actually watching your advertisement is very informative regardless of whether they can tie that information to a particular person.

tier 1: we sell anonymous info, feedback.

tier 2:

tier 3:

tier 4:

I will let you fill in the blanks. you know they want money, and you know how advertising works. and you know they got your details from various sources, from your account to your email to your billing address etc. plus you know what you learned from the recent blowout about how things really are in a connected world...


I read earlier how the original inside xbox team was laid off. (that post from trixie)
the person who operates like this on his colleagues, you just think about his planning on the various tiers of personal information selling. and I'm betting it took much more than one such person of this caliber to manage to push this disgraceful thing above all other people.

 

[3rdamention]

I have read all of your answers. You never talked about that quote directly. You just said that in general he was talking about theoretical uses. The problem is that he wasn't. Or atleast how it's presented it wasn't theoretical in the slightest. You're saying it's theoretical. He didn't.


Also Lynn Watts said:
“How many people are in the living room? Are they taking any action based on the advertising they just saw? Can we watch the customers’ reaction, and if we can, do we have the capability of showing a different ad, or the same ad, depending on what the reaction was?”

That, I will give you, is theoretical. But there sure is a lot of theoretical talk going on over there about the kinect in regards to advertising.


So maybe you're right, it's all theoretical. It seems like a pretty large pile of money to just let it sit there on the table. Especially considering that you've been working on NuADs for several years now.

Your answers are evasive, which doesn't really anger me because they pretty much have to be. You guys want to make advertising money with the kinect but you also want to make console/game selling money to us. I don't know how you can do both. The kinect is an albatross around your neck with absolutely no killer app in three years of existence and is single handedly why your console is more expensive... yet with all the 180s,including being able to unplug it, you haven't dropped it. There's one reason why that makes sense. It makes you money. And, no, I don't mean with Kinect Sports.

Great Post! You bring up many of the concerns I have as well. Thanks for posting this.

 

[IvorB]

I am sorry, but it is their own doing.

If they hadn't been thinking and planning like they did, then they would have a lot less stuff to deal with.

I would like that more people get awareness about what microsoft is trying to do here. not less.

I don't disagree with you that they have earned it. I just think it's pretty remarkable how much bad press and ill will they have actually managed to accumulate in a relatively short space of time.

 

[bwrobins]

Yes of course - depending on the implemented algorithms and the strength of the key this could range from basically instant to 1000+ years... so potentially safe enough...

edit: as an example - you want to brute force a 512bit key

you have a quad core 4.0Ghz quadcore processor which can check a key every cycle (completely unrealistic - way to optimistic)
=> you can check 1.6 * 10^10 keys per second

512 bit key means 1.34*10^154 possibilites

=> you need 8.38*10^143 seconds to check all possibilites => on average you'll need 4.19*10^143 seconds to guess the correct key

=> 1.33*10^136 years to brute force a 512bit key on average with one 4GHz Quad core CPU... gl&hf

Or maybe it would just take a breach of their servers or security policies to make the data accessible to others... I think both MS and Sony have been known for lacking proper verification methods and server breaches even if not always credit card numbers...
There again this is just one man's opinion.

 

[gofreak]

The underlying issue here is whether you trust Microsoft or not.

Unfortunately MS has perhaps waded into something of a perfect storm of popular techno-paranoia...and they keep doing it, almost oblivious. In the current climate they should stop talking about stuff like this. But that they're out there, stoking the imaginations of marketers, says quite a lot.

 

[notoccupanther]

Dunno if this has been posted ... but crikey .. how annoying

This is for Kinect V1 too ... you can be sure that the marketing behemoth has been salivating over this for the last few years and it ain't going away anytime soon .. too much moolah invested already see?

 

[Freki]

Or maybe it would just take a breach of their servers or security policies to make the data accessible to others... I think both MS and Sony have been known for lacking proper verification methods and server breaches even if not always credit card numbers...
There again this is just one man's opinion.

There's always a way - even if it's "just" a whistleblower. I personally wouldn't take a bet on my privacy with these odds though...

But what if you use math instead of brute force?

http://codebook.org/codebook_solution.pdf

A Swedish team of code breakers already cracked a 512 bit key without having to brute force it.

That's why I put the caveat "depending on the implemented algorithms" in my statement. Brute force always works when it comes to traditional cryptography (ignoring outlier cases like one-time pad) - you cannot count on a weakness in the algorithm though.
edit: and from just skimming the pdf I'd say vigenere, caesar and DES isn't state of the art ;-)

 

[Duster]

I guess this is why we're increasingly called consumers by the industry, we're no longer their only customers.

By breast-feeding us tailored ad campaigns based on our reactions and material status, it could manipulate a large part of our life from what cereals we feed the children to which party we give our vote.

Interestingly breakfast cereals largely owe their success to marketing as the question should be "Should we feed cereal to our children at all".
It would be interesting to hear if those that say they're not effected by advertising eat cereal, or use Gillette razors, brand name drugs... the list goes on but cereal is more interesting as what other foods are a response to masturbation?

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2010/nov/23/food-book-extract-felicity-lawrence
http://www.humansarenotbroken.com/the-sleazy-story-of-cereals-success/

 

[LCfiner]

Dunno if this has been posted ... but crikey .. how annoying

This is for Kinect V1 too ... you can be sure that the marketing behemoth has been salivating over this for the last few years and it ain't going away anytime soon .. too much moolah invested already see?

I’d like to know the people who would actually open those ads and then interact with them for long periods of time. Do normal people do this? Is this is a thing that happens?

One of the ad guys in that video talked about having a “dialog with consumers” with the ads. Have people ever said they wanted to have a dialog with ads? or is this dialog more like a loud, annoying stranger yelling at you while you’re quietly reading on the bus?

 

[tkalamba]

I hope people realize that the Kinect won't just be for the X1. Like the original, it will likely be available for anyone on PC, and many companies will make use of it for applications outside of home.

Advertisers will more than likely use it for stuff like instore ads, walk in to a store, and it can identify you are a male or female for example, and display a relevant deal or special to the customer. The technology itself is of more interest to advertisers, my company has been looking at its possible applications in various scenarios, and none of them include the living room. Everything we've been looking at will end up likely in store, or even bus shelters.

It's like how Hyundai created a concept car that utilized the Kinect for motion controlled dashboard controls.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...our-eyes-and-hand-gestures-not-those-gestures

It's the "thinking out of the box" style applications that has most people excited. Even many advertisers think the in the living room would be a tough sell to consumers.

 

[tkalamba]

I’d like to know the people who would actually open those ads and then interact with them for long periods of time. Do normal people do this? Is this is a thing that happens?

One of the ad guys in that video talked about having a “dialog with consumers” with the ads. Have people ever said they wanted to have a dialog with ads? or is this dialog more like a loud, annoying stranger yelling at you while you’re quietly reading on the bus?

Although NuAds hasn't really taken off (at least in Canada), yes, many people do in fact interact with ads like this. Stuff like this is what creative teams specialize in. They're good at it, and people do play around with them. They're expensive, but work much better than your standard banner ad when it comes to various metrics.

 

[RedNumberFive]

”Microsoft has a strong track record of implementing some of the best privacy protection measures in the industry. We place great importance on the privacy of our customers’ information and the safety of their experiences.” A Microsoft spokesperson in response to CNET.

So now we're down to bold faced lies.

 

[Razdek]

Microsoft as a company really has a an issue with their communication and it is affecting every department that they have. They can never ever give a straight answer and always word things vaguely which makes it look like they have something to hide. There is no way that they are not going to use this data for data mining as it's too valuable to pass up.

 

[dead monkey uk]

I hope people realize that the Kinect won't just be for the X1. Like the original, it will likely be available for anyone on PC, and many companies will make use of it for applications outside of home.

Advertisers will more than likely use it for stuff like instore ads, walk in to a store, and it can identify you are a male or female for example, and display a relevant deal or special to the customer. The technology itself is of more interest to advertisers, my company has been looking at its possible applications in various scenarios, and none of them include the living room. Everything we've been looking at will end up likely in store, or even bus shelters.

It's like how Hyundai created a concept car that utilized the Kinect for motion controlled dashboard controls.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...our-eyes-and-hand-gestures-not-those-gestures

It's the "thinking out of the box" style applications that has most people excited. Even many advertisers think the in the living room would be a tough sell to consumers.

Can I ask do you work for Microsoft in anyway? Just you have a very Xbox One focused post history.

 

[BruiserBear]

I have read all of your answers. You never talked about that quote directly. You just said that in general he was talking about theoretical uses. The problem is that he wasn't. Or atleast how it's presented it wasn't theoretical in the slightest. You're saying it's theoretical. He didn't.


Also Lynn Watts said:
“How many people are in the living room? Are they taking any action based on the advertising they just saw? Can we watch the customers’ reaction, and if we can, do we have the capability of showing a different ad, or the same ad, depending on what the reaction was?”

That, I will give you, is theoretical. But there sure is a lot of theoretical talk going on over there about the kinect in regards to advertising.


So maybe you're right, it's all theoretical. It seems like a pretty large pile of money to just let it sit there on the table. Especially considering that you've been working on NuADs for several years now.

Your answers are evasive, which doesn't really anger me because they pretty much have to be. You guys want to make advertising money with the kinect but you also want to make console/game selling money to us. I don't know how you can do both. The kinect is an albatross around your neck with absolutely no killer app in three years of existence and is single handedly why your console is more expensive... yet with all the 180s,including being able to unplug it, you haven't dropped it. There's one reason why that makes sense. It makes you money. And, no, I don't mean with Kinect Sports.

This so much. Back when the XB1 was unveiled, and they said it had to be online, AND you HAD to have the Kinect plugged in, I immediately thought "advertising".

It's clear the Kinect is not that great for games. It's a decent accessory at best, and yet Microsoft is forcing it into every box they sell. The only thing that makes sense of that is advertising.

 

[LCfiner]

Although NuAds hasn't really taken off (at least in Canada), yes, many people do in fact interact with ads like this. Stuff like this is what creative teams specialize in. They're good at it, and people do play around with them. They're expensive, but work much better than your standard banner ad when it comes to various metrics.

I’m guessing you do something in marketing and have some numbers backing this up. but, fair enough. If you know that they are popular, so be it. I don’t see the draw, myself. The examples in that youtube video certainly weren’t exciting or funny.

As for working better than banner ads… well, banner ads are the most easily ignored type of ads in the world. it’s a low bar to jump to be more effective than banner ads in grabbing attention

 

[TheD]

Dunno if this has been posted ... but crikey .. how annoying

This is for Kinect V1 too ... you can be sure that the marketing behemoth has been salivating over this for the last few years and it ain't going away anytime soon .. too much moolah invested already see?

Fucking hell, only someone in marketing/advertising would think that what was shown in that video was compelling in anyway.

 

[tkalamba]

Can I ask do you work for Microsoft in anyway? Just you have a very Xbox One focused post history.

No I don't my clients are all Autos or Finance.

I'm getting an Xbox One, I have an interest in the product, so I tend to jump in more threads talking about it. A users post history would usually indicate an interest in a topic.

I don't jump in PS4 threads because I am simply not interested in the discussions around it. I'll get that console as well, but I don't find it as interesting to talk about and generally don't like the tone of a lot of the discussions around it.

Edit: If I worked with MS as a client, I actually wouldn't be able to talk about the product as part of our company policy. We're encouraged to avoid forums and the like on topics covering our clients to avoid issues. Our social media agency is in charge of all that stuff.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

I'm not referring to that DRM nonsense most people think it's fowl and we know it. We're discussing the monetization of a large focused user base, and Sony wants in on that revenue pie. That's why they started PS+ in the first place. We just like it better because of the free rentals.

You missed the other part of this: non-gaming feature. Sony wants to profit off people playing games online like MS has for damn over a decade, fine. But at least they don't have apps like Netflix and Hulu behind a paywall. That was the first sign MS would likely take a step like this.

Charging people $500, then a $60 subscription to practically spy on them and force-feed them "targeted spam" when they don't even get some sort of monetary compensation or a clear opt-out choice? There aren't enough words for how wrong that really is.

 

[tkalamba]

I’m guessing you do something in marketing and have some numbers backing this up. but, fair enough. If you know that they are popular, so be it. I don’t see the draw, myself. The examples in that youtube video certainly weren’t exciting or funny.

As for working better than banner ads… well, banner ads are the most easily ignored type of ads in the world. it’s a low bar to jump to be more effective than banner ads in grabbing attention

Digital Advertising specifically, all online media and the like, I'm technically responsible for stuff like all the annoying preroll on Youtube or banners, and I hate them as much as everyone else, but they are effective and have a massive reach.

I have plenty of data, unfortunately, most of it would end up identifying where I work and my clients so I can't actually provide it, but I can tell you that most of our most successful campaigns were all engaging and interactive. Most of the awards in the industry are won with ads like these believe it or not.

 

[Dyno]

"Preventing Kinect from being used inappropriately is something the team takes very seriously."

Kinect 2 is the Pandora's Box of our age.

 

[Freki]

"Preventing Kinect from being used inappropriately is something the team takes very seriously."

And who defines what is inappropriate? The user, Microsoft, governments, ... ?

 

[tkalamba]

And who defines what is inappropriate? The user, Microsoft, governments, ... ?

The IAB http://www.iab.net/

They determine all the standards and what not that advertisers will abide by, and although the standards are pretty much voluntary, most large advertising networks will abide by their guidelines. MS included.

 

[Freki]

The IAB http://www.iab.net/

They determine all the standards and what not that advertisers will abide by, and although the standards are pretty much voluntary, most large advertising networks will abide by their guidelines. MS included.

You seem pretty knowledgeable reagarding advertisement. Do they have rules against profiling users?

 

[shinra-bansho]

Wait is the claim being made [by Microsoft] that Medhi wasn't hinting about future provision of user data (whether personalized or anonymized) from Kinect 2.0 for use by marketing/advertising firms at a price?

 

[PsychoSoldier]

Even the possibility of all these things, however remote, is still a poison pill.

Relying upon a corporate entity to do the right thing just seems a bit naïve to me, especially when the upside to me as an end user seems so small.

 

[tkalamba]

You seem pretty knowledgeable reagarding advertisement. Do they have rules against profiling users?

Yes, you can't identify people, all metrics gathered are all anonymous, they can only hold basic information.

They can only determine a general area, usually the most basic would be at the City level, but this is rarely provided. Usually limited to state or province level. They can also only determine your age, and sex, and never your race. Facebook is one of the only platforms that provide most of that data, and it's because through creating a profile, a user will willingly identify themselves and provide all that data. The only targeting that wouldn't be available is by name.

There are a crap ton of rules based around re-targeting, demographic profile and whatnot. They are also getting much more strict, and stuff like Ad Choices is becoming the standard for all advertisers in the digital space. http://www.youradchoices.com/

Basically, with ad choices, you should start to see a little logo at the top right of a banner ad, and it will allow you to determine what you can see with ads and whatnot.

 

[Chobel]

Yes, you can't identify people, all metrics gathered are all anonymous, they can only hold basic information.

They can only determine a general area, usually the most basic would be at the City level, but this is rarely provided. Usually limited to state or province level. They can also only determine your age, and sex, and never your race. Facebook is one of the only platforms that provide most of that data, and it's because through creating a profile, a user will willingly identify themselves and provide all that data. The only targeting that wouldn't be available is by name.

There are a crap ton of rules based around re-targeting, demographic profile and whatnot. They are also getting much more strict, and stuff like Ad Choices is becoming the standard for all advertisers in the digital space. http://www.youradchoices.com/

Basically, with ad choices, you should start to see a little logo at the top right of a banner ad, and it will allow you to determine what you can see with ads and whatnot.

Then how can google get away with all that ad-targeting they do?

 

[Freki]

Yes, you can't identify people, all metrics gathered are all anonymous, they can only hold basic information.

But if they can't identify people how do you send a targeted ad to the person in question? You have to know that the person does like cars in order to send him the ad in question.

 

[tkalamba]

Then how can google get away with all that ad-targeting they do?

It's based on re-targeting cookies and the like. None of it actually identifies you personally, just the content of the sites and your browsing history. Say you go to the Hyundai site, and build a car, or go to Coca Cola, a cookie will install in your browser, then the ads get targeted to you based on that cookie.

There are a ton of complicated algorithms that determine targeting, but none will ever know who you are. They'll just determine if you are a male, your general age and whatnot based on the sites you visit. If you have a history of going to IGN on Chrome, then GQ, then Askmen, then it's safe to assume that you are a male.

Google specifically specializes in content based targeting. They focus on keywords and whatnot.

 

[tkalamba]

But if they can't identify people how do you send a targeted ad to the person in question? You have to know that the person does like cars in order to send him the ad in question.

You can do so without ever knowing who a person is, it's all done through cookies and whatnot in your browser. Using ad blockers stops these cookies from ever taking root.

 

[ironcreed]

And even in my position, things can change. Things that were a fact yesterday may not be tomorrow.

When people ask me questions about things that might happen, the whole point of having me post here is to share the thinking process. So I say things like "my guess" specifically so nobody thinks I'm trying to pass that off as anything but speculation.

As I've said many times. I don't know every detail about every part of the program.

Indeed, things can and often do change. Which is why I am not going to trust Microsoft for the long run and what they may decide to try and implement in couple of years once this thing is in millions of homes. Even hints of going in this direction is enough of a red flag for me.

 

[dugdug]

Yusuf Mehdi is such a dickhead.

This. A million times, this.

 

[Freki]

You can do so without ever knowing who a person is, it's all done through cookies and whatnot in your browser. Using ad blockers stops these cookies from ever taking root.

Oh you are talking about ads on websites - yes I know that :-D - few pages earlier I recommended Gostery.
No I am talking about the Xbox one - where all the information can be tied to your xbox live profile effortlessly.