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[James Chilton]

"Mehdi, at the Association of National Advertisters’ Masters of Marketing Conference, in Phoenix yesterday, said Microsoft can see whether people are paying attention to ads and evaluate how their bodies respond to them, according to a marketer who attended but asked that his name not be used in AdAge‘s report." - http://www.kotaku.com.au/2013/10/xb...brags-to-advertisers-about-kinects-abilities/

Albert, why is Yusuf saying things like the above - or has he been misinterpreted somewhere along the line?

 

[Shinta]

It's not bigger because it hasn't happened yet. How do you have a congressional hearing for something that isn't released yet?

You would hope it wouldn't be released without guaranteed protections in place beforehand.

Given their recent history stewarding consumer data, I think it's worth looking into to be sure before unsuspecting consumers put a highly sophisticated infrared camera and microphone in their living room and connect it to the internet.

 

[$h@d0w]

I'd rather you post what you know even if others disagree with it.

I'd prefer him to not post and leave, he's not helping his cause (selling more Xbox Ones) nor is he providing anyone with concrete information/news which is what people want.

It'll be better for Microsoft and Xbox One, if his words are just going to be construed as misinformation down the line.

 

[Albert Penello]

That article is sourcing the same AdAge article at the beginning of the post.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

"Mehdi, at the Association of National Advertisters’ Masters of Marketing Conference, in Phoenix yesterday, said Microsoft can see whether people are paying attention to ads and evaluate how their bodies respond to them, according to a marketer who attended but asked that his name not be used in AdAge‘s report." - http://www.kotaku.com.au/2013/10/xb...brags-to-advertisers-about-kinects-abilities/

Albert, why is Yusuf saying things like the above - or has he been misinterpreted somewhere along the line?

nothing new

 

[A Serious Man]

There is just no way I would allow this camera to be active in any part of my house. Forcing consumers to buy one with every Xbox One just seems like an incredible misstep to me.

 

[killatopak]

"Mehdi, at the Association of National Advertisters’ Masters of Marketing Conference, in Phoenix yesterday, said Microsoft can see whether people are paying attention to ads and evaluate how their bodies respond to them, according to a marketer who attended but asked that his name not be used in AdAge‘s report." - http://www.kotaku.com.au/2013/10/xb...brags-to-advertisers-about-kinects-abilities/

Albert, why is Yusuf saying things like the above - or has he been misinterpreted somewhere along the line?

If this is true, Albert, you're losing your credibility and fast

EDIT: Did Kotaku copy NeoGAF again? Oh Kotaku...

 

[SwiftDeath]

If this is true, Albert, you're losing your credibility and fast

While this is certainly a serious topic to discuss that kotaku piece is based on the same article

It's not new or additional in any way

Edit: Yes yes they did ^^^

 

[famousmortimer]

That article is sourcing the same AdAge article at the beginning of the post.

So are you saying the ad age article has been discredited? Because that's news to me.

 

[FeiRR]

And even in my position, things can change. Things that were a fact yesterday may not be tomorrow.
[...]
As I've said many times. I don't know every detail about every part of the program.

That means tomorrow (or after Xbox One launch) Microsoft can start doing what we fear. That means your words bear no relevance. Because we're fairly aware of the fact that you're not in any power to decide about the course of action or what Kinect will be used for. Those decisions are taken at the top level and they probably involve people from outside of your company, military people, intelligence, government agents. It's not anymore about toys for entertainment. I think shit just got really, really serious. This goes far, far beyond gaming.

What I give you, you seem honest. And I understand you also have a family to feed and you value your job. Sometimes it's better to see no evil and think no evil. That's you though. We have nothing to lose besides our privacy and dignity. We don't answer to Microsoft. I don't even answer to your government, even though it processes my data. And no game or feature is worth the doubt that some device in my room may one day start watching me because I forgot to reread some TOS and there was a small change at the end of page 164 in fine print. Life's too short to be scared about things like that and I don't want to buy a dog.

 

[Gormless Noodle]

You would hope it wouldn't be released without guaranteed protections in place beforehand.

Given their recent history stewarding consumer data, I think it's worth looking into to be sure before unsuspecting consumers put a highly sophisticated infrared camera and microphone in their living room and connect it to the internet.

I'd be pretty surprised if there would be any restrictions placed on Microsoft. People generally don't seem to mind being monitored like this and there's obvious advantages in there for the government, so they probably won't take action unless it's demanded by the public. I often see the "I have nothing to hide anyway" line of reasoning when you confront them with these sorts of issues, it's really quite remarkable.

 

[Albert Penello]

So are you saying the ad age article has been discredited? Because that's news to me.

Where did you get that? I'm simply saying that we've been talking about the AdAge article, and what exactly was said and what our policies are this whole time. The Kotaku article is sourcing AdAge.

 

[Chobel]

Before People Jump on Penello, He said

Nothing I said yesterday is inconsistent with Yusuf's interview. People appear to be combining different parts of the interview to try and make another point.

Clearly Yusuf is talking about the TV and NFL stuff in terms of "putting together in a unifying way" It's also clear that anything around using Kinect was "hinted at" and all the remaining comments come from the author [AdAge].

 

[Piggus]

No, definitely not "every" activity. Just the activities that you care about. Say I'm watching a TV show and a Toyota commercial comes on and the Kinect reads the biometric data and determines it affected me positively.

Later when deciding which ad to feed my machine the machine gets a master list, it picks Toyota because it knows that I'm interested. Targeted advertising in a huge way. Advertisers would pay a TON for that. It's also not complex for the Kinect, Xbox One, or your servers. It also never sends my data off the machine.


I'm not pulling this out of thin air.

Don't give them any ideas. -_-

 

[kartu]

... And we are done here. How can he possibly brag this out in public????

Me wonders too...

Meh. The government know all about me anyway, so not much left for them to datafarm. Bring on the fun!

I wouldn't care much about government spying on me either (I'm pretty sure they can read all my emails, post and what not, if they want) I can't stop using email, etc anyway. I probably feel safe because I'm sure, no government would have any interest whatsoever in spying on me.

But this is not about government, it's about companies spying on you to squeeze a couple of more nickels. Quite a big difference.

 

[famousmortimer]

Where did you get that? I'm simply saying that we've been talking about the AdAge article, and what exactly was said and what our policies are this whole time. The Kotaku article is sourcing AdAge.

You avoided the quote by saying that the quote is from somewhere else. This is called deflection. I know you know that but this is a nice learning moment for the younger visitors to GAF. Instead of answering his question you focused on something that really didn't matter.


You, tonight, are saying that Microsoft aren't planning on collecting biometric data. Mehdi, in that quote, says you are.

Which is it?

 

[Chobel]

Every other question people are asking is stuff that isn't happening. So my best answer is to look at how we deal with similar situations today as a decent indicator. In the case of Kinect today, we have lots of information out about what we do.

So that's means that what I said isn't happening

Is there a special APIs for advertisers?

Because this article http://www.sticktwiddlers.com/2013/06/28/xbox-one-dashboard-created-with-advertising-in-mind/ mentions that there's some kind of API for advertisers to use data collected by Kinect.

The attending Xbox LIVE Advertising Developer commented that they don’t actually receive a lot of the biometric information collected by Kinect. “This sort of works at two levels. There’s the game producers who have a different API, so a different set of code and system that they use, and they’ve got a lot more control of the whole thing,” he stated, “whereas from the advertising point of view we have a slightly more limited set, which is designed to protect the user. The company is very keen on protecting the user from any sort of abuse so we can’t do certain things.”

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

What does "Guest13" and "Guest15" mean? Is there some kind of local or online database and this is the 13th unidentified person that uses this Kinect? So if he comes back in a couple of days he will be rocgnized as "Guest13" again?

And what does "Identifying" mean? Is the system checking a local or online database to identify this person? Based on what data? Voice samples? Will he be "Guest16"?

he would be guest 16. might even be guest 17 if he sits down and comes back into view again.

The video that goes with that screenshot

http://youtu.be/j7GBUeHv_Ts?t=5m54s

 

[jblank83]

I will never buy an Xbox One, not at any price, not for any game.

 

[baphomet]

Fuck that thing. I dont watch ads anywhere anymore, I'm sure as fuck not going to watch them when Im trying to play games.

 

[Albert Penello]

What does "Guest13" and "Guest15" mean? Is there some kind of local or online database and this is the 13th unidentified person that uses this Kinect? So if he comes back in a couple of days he will be rocgnized as "Guest13" again?

And what does "Identifying" mean? Is the system checking a local or online database to identify this person? Based on what data? Voice samples? Will he be "Guest16"?

You can see there is a room full of people. If you don't have an account on the box, and you don't log in, you get assigned as a guest. Likely a bunch of people have stepped in front of the camera for the demo.

No, he will not be recognized as that same guest again.

Identifying means the system is looking to see if he has a registered profile on the box. If not, he'll just get assigned as another guest.

All happens locally. You know this because you've asked before.

 

[killatopak]

Life's too short to be scared about things like that and I don't want to buy a dog.

HAHHAHAHAHAHA! lol bish.

 

[Hanmik]

You can see there is a room full of people. If you don't have an account on the box, and you don't log in, you get assigned as a guest. Likely a bunch of people have stepped in front of the camera for the demo.

No, he will not be recognized as that same guest again.

Identifying means the system is looking to see if he has a registered profile on the box. If not, he'll just get assigned as another guest.

All happens locally. You know this because you've asked before.

sounds good.. how does it work if I disconnect my Kinect then..? off course not this kind of demo, but with the dashboard. How does it know who signs in..? what kind of security is there if I don´t use my Kinect..?

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

What biometrics does the Xbox One save locally to recognize "players"?

You already named voice samples.

(Hackers will love this!)

Data Used for Sign-In. As an optional feature, Kinect can collect and use identity data to enable you to sign in to your gamer profile. This is mostly facial recognition data that identifies individual players. You can decide whether to use this feature, called Kinect ID, and control whether this data is collected. This data is stored permanently on your console to enable sign in to your gamer profile, and is not returned to Microsoft. This information is stored as a long series of numbers, and it does not personally identify you.

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/kinect/privacyandonlinesafety#DataCollection1

 

[Albert Penello]

You avoided the quote by saying that the quote is from somewhere else. This is called deflection. I know you know that but this is a nice learning moment for the younger visitors to GAF. Instead of answering his question you focused on something that really didn't matter.


You, tonight, are saying that Microsoft aren't planning on collecting biometric data. Mehdi, in that quote, says you are.

Which is it?

You mean the quote I already answered earlier in the thread. The one where he said, speculatively, that it's possible. The same thing that was said, speculatively, months ago is possible. Using technology that has been shown in demos including the one linked. Which I have stated we are currently not implementing?

There has been no deflection in any question asked. I just assumed people were reading all my answers.

 

[slider]

edit... son of a... Albert just beat me to the punch.

 

[Chobel]

I'm going off-topic for a second: I have another question Mr Penello.

Can we expect Kinect 2 to be used from a normal PC in the future?

 

[B_Boss]

That means tomorrow (or after Xbox One launch) Microsoft can start doing what we fear. That means your words bear no relevance. Because we're fairly aware of the fact that you're not in any power to decide about the course of action or what Kinect will be used for. Those decisions are taken at the top level and they probably involve people from outside of your company, military people, intelligence, government agents. It's not anymore about toys for entertainment. I think shit just got really, really serious. This goes far, far beyond gaming....
.

No sarcasm intended but you are most likely correct. When we speak of MS, as large a grand, multinational corporation as they are and taken into context (NSA, PRISM, etc) perhaps this is far greater....certainly involving the very Govt. Agencies you mention. Oddly........I do find it......well, on the borderline of tasteless that the console will be released on the 50th anniversary of JFK's death...which is absolutely ironic considering that issue in and of itself is another very relevant issue where the peoples trust was betrayed but, in a sense, I digress.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

You know, I get the exact same vibe from. He's a poison to the brand.

I don't actually like any of the MS execs, but what about Medhi specifically is "poison"?

 

[Albert Penello]

sounds good.. how does it work if I disconnect my Kinect then..? off course not this kind of demo, but with the dashboard. How does it know who signs in..? what kind of security is there if I don´t use my Kinect..?

It'll work like it does on 360. You sign in manually, and you'll create a guest account for friends on the system.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

No sarcasm intended but you are most likely correct. When we speak of MS, as large a grand, multinational corporation as they are and taken into context (NSA, PRISM, etc) perhaps this is far greater....certainly involving the very Govt. Agencies you mention. Oddly........I do find it......well, on the borderline of tasteless that the console will be released on the 50th anniversary of JFK's death...which is absolutely ironic considering that issue in and of itself is another very relevant issue where the peoples trust was betrayed but, in a sense, I digress.

JFK assassination reference...really? You do know the 360 came out November 22nd as well right?

 

[Chobel]

JFK assassination reference...really? You do know the 360 came out November 22nd as well right?

But not in the 50th anniversary

 

[Yaqoub]

But in not the 50th anniversary

Someone will link the Xbox One to the illuminati pretty soon, lol.

 

[BigDug13]

You mean the quote I already answered earlier in the thread. The one where he said, speculatively, that it's possible. The same thing that was said, speculatively, months ago is possible. Using technology that has been shown in demos including the one linked. Which I have stated we are currently not implementing?

There has been no deflection in any question asked. I just assumed people were reading all my answers.

You're phrasing things strangely. "Currently not implementing". Making sure to use the word "currently" and not simply saying that we "are not implementing". Leaving it open to the possibility of it happening while absolving you of any deception by saying "currently".

The article paints a clear picture of Kinect's purpose. I understand the position that you're in requires that you can't really say one way or the other, but the article already came out and you can't emphatically deny its content, understandably.

But people who are concerned with this direction being any sort of console priority are understandably concerned.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

But in not the 50th anniversary

Know what else came out on the 22nd?

Toy Story

 

[KMS]

The crappy thing about this whole thing is that it's one more way Microsoft is making money off us and we get nothing in return. We pay everything then get ads on top of it all. If you want to make money off me like Google then start providing me with free access like they do. Make the hardware and software cheap since the way to make money on ads is having tons of people to serve ads to. Yet, the cost of entry and use for the Xbox is the highest of all for set top, game box world. Then they have the audacity to take your biometric data on top of it all to make even more money off you. You want me to ever buy an Xbox sell me one without Kinect or get rid of live gold. Without gold then at least I would feel I was getting something in return for knowing what gets me all hot and bothered so you can milk me for ad revenue.

edit- Or how about 10% off all purchases with a Gold account. You get the positive if you have and xbox with gold you can get 10% off games buzz, you drive digital adoption and the more games people buy the more they feel they saved making gold/ads worth dealing with for the savings.

 

[Shosai]

You would hope it wouldn't be released without guaranteed protections in place beforehand.

Given their recent history stewarding consumer data, I think it's worth looking into to be sure before unsuspecting consumers put a highly sophisticated infrared camera and microphone in their living room and connect it to the internet.

Or, you could just run a packet sniffer. If the hardware is in our homes, then it can't do anything without the public's knowledge. If it uploads any videos or images without the user's consent, we'll know on day one.

 

[Shinta]

Or, you could just run a packet sniffer. If the hardware is in our homes, then it can't do anything without the public's knowledge. If it uploads any videos or images without the user's consent, we'll know on day one.

The article is talking about the data they have access to, so I don't see the point really. Sure, it would be nice to run so we can see for sure. But they're openly showing off to advertisers that they are monitoring biometric data timed against the content you are interacting with. I never said it was a straight video stream or images.

 

[famousmortimer]

You mean the quote I already answered earlier in the thread. The one where he said, speculatively, that it's possible. The same thing that was said, speculatively, months ago is possible. Using technology that has been shown in demos including the one linked. Which I have stated we are currently not implementing?

There has been no deflection in any question asked. I just assumed people were reading all my answers.

I have read all of your answers. You never talked about that quote directly. You just said that in general he was talking about theoretical uses. The problem is that he wasn't. Or atleast how it's presented it wasn't theoretical in the slightest. You're saying it's theoretical. He didn't.


Also Lynn Watts said:
“How many people are in the living room? Are they taking any action based on the advertising they just saw? Can we watch the customers’ reaction, and if we can, do we have the capability of showing a different ad, or the same ad, depending on what the reaction was?”

That, I will give you, is theoretical. But there sure is a lot of theoretical talk going on over there about the kinect in regards to advertising.


So maybe you're right, it's all theoretical. It seems like a pretty large pile of money to just let it sit there on the table. Especially considering that you've been working on NuADs for several years now.

Your answers are evasive, which doesn't really anger me because they pretty much have to be. You guys want to make advertising money with the kinect but you also want to make console/game selling money to us. I don't know how you can do both. The kinect is an albatross around your neck with absolutely no killer app in three years of existence and is single handedly why your console is more expensive... yet with all the 180s,including being able to unplug it, you haven't dropped it. There's one reason why that makes sense. It makes you money. And, no, I don't mean with Kinect Sports.

 

[KMS]

Or, you could just run a packet sniffer. If the hardware is in our homes, then it can't do anything without the public's knowledge. If it uploads any videos or images without the user's consent, we'll know on day one.

My guess,
It wouldn't ever send images or videos of people more like survey data. What they have been watching and playing. Where they excited on scale of 1-5, did they point at the screen, elevated heart rate, what facial emotion was display. All the data would be numbers based on criteria that gets tossed into a spreadsheet type database. All of it would be anonymized data I would hope. Anyone out there know for sure what form the biometric data is represented as?

 

[QaaQer]

This article is about "A new study claims to identify the times of the week that women are feeling the most insecure about their bodies, and recommends that brands "concentrate media during prime vulnerability moments."

http://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...sest-advertising-strategy-of-all-time/280242/

.

here you see what advertisers want to do: manipulate however they can in order to make money. x1 will be a great tool for that. I'm sure advertisers will love to have all the great info from the amazing kinect2 so as to identify prime vulnerability moments in people's lives in order to sell them shit.

 

[QaaQer]

Germany has already labeled it as a 'surveillance device.'

beautiful.

It's a breach of privacy to feed me ads based on anything, whether it's computated on my console or in some server farm in bolivia.

It's not rare... Google's entire company is based off this model, and Microsoft is heading in that direction as well. Facebook is also. The day I got engaged 4 years ago every ad was about wedding shit. It happens all of the time and is unavoidable. But it *is* a breach of privacy.


But beyond being a breach of privacy, if it's actually reading biometric data that is some seriously scary shit. I recommend reading the book The Science of Fear by Daniel Gardner. The focus is obviously about creating fear in humans but it exhaustively cites hundreds of studies about how different mechanisms are used to basically fuck with us. When you have a camera in your house that can tell whether you are happy or sad and read your heartbeat you are cracking the window open for them to come inside. This isn't to say we have no control over ourselves... of course we do - but this is more than a nudge in a direction.

People like to think that advertising has no affect on them because the idea that it does is rather depressing. The sad truth is that it does. On everyone. A lot. And once we get into biometric data it's going to start veering into scary.

great great post.

 

[FINALBOSS]

God damn it's getting disgusting in here. Albert spinning like a Harlem Globetrotter thinking we're all Washington Generals.

 

[Oppo]

Yeah. I made a thread about this end of August.

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=666229

It's the only way the overall strategy makes a sense.

 

[FeiRR]

Yeah. I made a thread about this end of August.

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=666229

It's the only way the overall strategy makes a sense.

There's one post there from a fellow GAFfer which drew my particular attention:

As someone who works in the advertising space, and actively speaks with both Microsoft and Sony with regards to advertising on their platforms - I can guarantee you that they see Xbox One as a means for additional revenue.

With regards to the Nielsen comments: Nielsen gets its data from two sources, diaries filled out by individuals, as well as digital data from households with remotes which require the user to identify themselves, and then track their TV usage. The bases used to extrapolate each market or DMA is very small in comparison to what Xbox 360 can do for the 'gamer' demographic, and the Xbox One will be able to do with individual user recognition using the Kinect 2.0.

This is not 'tin-hat' thinking - the data will be collected and used for advertising. Also, the CPM (cost per thousand) for placing an ad is very high in comparison to other mediums such as cable or network TV, etc.

You are giving them a very small amount of money (from an advertiser) each and every time you are exposed to their ad. At this point in time, they receive (depending on individual client negotiations) $32+ per 1000 impressions served. Yes, you are paying to use their service, AND giving them an additional revenue stream. The amount is small on an individual level, but rather large when viewed in total. The revenue will only grow for them when you watch TV through Xbox One, and they reach deals with cable providers and networks to provide the Nielsen data, and receive a portion of the advertising revenue from regular TV advertising served through your Xbox One.

PS: Sony does this as well - but to a much lesser extent, and only in very limited areas versus Xbox.

 

[bigbaldwolf86]

here you see what advertisers want to do: manipulate however they can in order to make money. x1 will be a great tool for that. I'm sure advertisers will love to have all the great info from the amazing kinect2 so as to identify prime vulnerability moments in people's lives in order to sell them shit.

The main problem I have is that they have stated the Xbox One was created with advertisers in mind. Not gamers but advertisers. This whole thing stinks and I'll be so happy to jump ship to Sony next month. Albert isn't doing MS any favours here and all of this guess work only leads to more speculation.

Again this has been the problem since this console was first revealed. A complete lack of any concrete answers. It's all been about spin and when we are so close to launching and we still can't get firm answers it looks bad.

I shouldn't be getting ads in the first place. I pay for Gold and with most services you pay to have the ads removed. It looks like we've been funding Microsofts R&D on how to make even more advertising.

No thanks

 

[Shinta]

There's one post there from a fellow GAFfer which drew my particular attention:

I'm consistently surprised that this isn't all common knowledge. So many people were insisting that no one is interested in what they do. I guess a lot of people really have no clue what really goes into advertising.

Still though, great post to read.

 

[B_Boss]

Someone will link the Xbox One to the illuminati pretty soon, lol.

Thanks for the "Inception" someone already has lol...

 

[oldnick]

Guys, that's just for TV stuff right ? There will be no actual ads in games ?

 

[mekes]

These are the soundbites that make you want to order and Xbox One just weeks from launch aren't they.