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AdvertisingAge: Xbox One's Data Treasure Trove Could Reshape Marketing

tkalamba

Member
Curious though

I thought there was a push in advertising to get ever more specific?

Eventually to evolve past the target demographics?

Wouldn't an ad be worth more to the seller of a good if they can tell how likely phil is to buy their product?

Isn't that where the industry is going?

Not every male 18-25 is going to be interested in your product but maybe new target groups based on individuals tastes are

It will depend on the objective of the campaign, but advertisers know they will never be able to get phil specifically. What they can do is shrink the target group to a much more relevant group. So instead of going after every male, 18-25, they can go after every male 18-25 who likes cars, videogames, lives in the Midwest and has an interest in sports.

They still want to get the best bang for their buck, the more targeting you apply, the pricier the CPM becomes (cost per thousand impressions). There won't be much of an ROI if you go after just phil the cost of doing so will make it pointless. But if you go for a wider range target with relevant interests and what not you will get a better outcome.

If they are trying to sell trucks, they target site content where they know their audience will be, and not the user specifically. If they know that 18-25 sports fans who like videogames will be on IGN and Xbox Live, that's where they will put their ads. There's a bunch of different types of buys an advertiser can make to meet their goals, each will have different costs and methodogy. Never does an advertiser expect 100% of their audience will be in one place.

I can do Behavioural targeting, which will target based on user habits. I can target by Re-targeting, serving ads based on previous sessions on a site (ie. build a car on an auto site, you will see ads for the car you built). I can do a blanket buy, males 18-25, or I can go with real time bidding which basically just buys any inventory for dirt cheap, but this inventory will usually suck.

Believe it or not, advertisers are aware of privacy, and more and more clients are also pushing for it, hence why stuff like ad choices (which is by no means mandated, and entirely voluntary) are taking off and gaining momentum. www.youradchoices.com
 

ironcreed

Banned
yep. can't really remember anyone ever talking about a 'holy grail' who wasn't actively involved in attempting with all their might to arrange for getting their hands on it :) ...


penello & co. should just pass on gaf. trying to please/appease everyone is never gonna get ms anywhere other than looking even worse... not to mention, according to mehdi, they've already got their target audience in the bag, anyway:

"In a broader set of community, people don't pay attention to a lot of the details," said Mehdi. "We've seen it in the research, we've seen it in a lot of the data points..."

"In a broader set of community, people don't pay attention to a lot of the details," said Mehdi. "We've seen it in the research, we've seen it in a lot of the data points...

How can this not piss one off? I mean, he is essentially just shoving it right in your face that they think they can get away with anything because people don't pay attention to the fine details. But what makes it so scary is that, for the most part, he is right.
 

2345425

Member
"In a broader set of community, people don't pay attention to a lot of the details," said Mehdi. "We've seen it in the research, we've seen it in a lot of the data points...

How can this not piss one off? I mean, he is essentially just shoving it right in your face that they think they can get away with anything because people don't pay attention to the fine details. But what makes it so scary is that, for the most part, he is right.
It sounds very similar to what they were saying about the DRM before the 180.
 
I originally ignored this whole thread just because I figured it was some company pontificating about the potential for data mining from Kinect, and the device being used for advertising. Figured that potential was obvious, but it didn't mean much if MS claimed they wouldn't use the data.

But here you have it; Yusuf Mehdi telling advertisers at a national conference that Kinect is going to be a boon for them. It's gross, and I want nothing to do with it.

The one, and only, way I'll be interested in getting myself an Xbox One is if they sell a Kinect-less sku. That at least would guarantee that I didn't have to participate in this kind of thing. Until then, sorry MS, but for everything else you've done, saddling your system with this device is going to be the thing that keeps me well away for the long run.

Edit: Just to clarify my stance on this, I'm sure MS will make sending your data a "choice" much in the same way lots of shrink-wrap contracts are done. Essentially, if you want to use the Kinect, or transmit data for things like voice recognition, you'll be agreeing to allow MS to use that data for it's purposes, including but not limited to, user requested responses, data for improving the technology, and for third party use. Then MS can wash their hands of it and claim you're the one who wants and agrees to it.
 

EGM1966

Member
who does google think you are?

Another interesting note is that Google filters and prioritizes your search results based on who they think you are, so when you Google something you will get different results than when I Google the exact same thing.

finally, one of the Google founders said that his goal is to make the algorithm so accurate and personalized that a 17 year old could type in "Which college should I attend" and Google would give him the correct answer. Google as the oracle of Delphi.

As I let my kids use my PC profile the mix of my and their searches blows Google's profiling mind - it's almost funny watching it swing from one profile to another trying to make sense of the data inputs

Kills Amazon too - the mix of stuff I get recommended to me...
 

tkalamba

Member
As I let my kids use my PC profile the mix of my and their searches blows Google's profiling mind - it's almost funny watching it swing from one profile to another trying to make sense of the data inputs

Kills Amazon too - the mix of stuff I get recommended to me...

Your browser is probably swarming with all sorts of tracking cookies haha
 
It will depend on the objective of the campaign, but advertisers know they will never be able to get phil specifically. What they can do is shrink the target group to a much more relevant group. So instead of going after every male, 18-25, they can go after every male 18-25 who likes cars, videogames, lives in the Midwest and has an interest in sports.

They still want to get the best bang for their buck, the more targeting you apply, the pricier the CPM becomes (cost per thousand impressions). There won't be much of an ROI if you go after just phil the cost of doing so will make it pointless. But if you go for a wider range target with relevant interests and what not you will get a better outcome.

If they are trying to sell trucks, they target site content where they know their audience will be, and not the user specifically. If they know that 18-25 sports fans who like videogames will be on IGN and Xbox Live, that's where they will put their ads. There's a bunch of different types of buys an advertiser can make to meet their goals, each will have different costs and methodogy. Never does an advertiser expect 100% of their audience will be in one place.

I can do Behavioural targeting, which will target based on user habits. I can target by Re-targeting, serving ads based on previous sessions on a site (ie. build a car on an auto site, you will see ads for the car you built). I can do a blanket buy, males 18-25, or I can go with real time bidding which basically just buys any inventory for dirt cheap, but this inventory will usually suck.

Believe it or not, advertisers are aware of privacy, and more and more clients are also pushing for it, hence why stuff like ad choices (which is by no means mandated, and entirely voluntary) are taking off and gaining momentum. www.youradchoices.com

Thanks for the insight

I guess I just imagine the Orwellian future where any ad you watch is tailor made for you specifically and some corporate database somewhere has all your selling points detailed in earnest
 

p3tran

Banned
The goal for an advertiser is not to go after any one individual, they don't care who you are or what you do on your own. Their goal is to get the highest reach they can (number of people) in their target demographic. Their ads usually hit a wide range of users, and hope for the best. They want their message seen. They only care what consumers as a group are doing, and what any one individual are doing.

well, how about the innovator advertiser, who will want to maximize goals by -for example- identifying the leader in each group and getting him first, making the rest piece of cake?

since technology today already can give you that, how can you say that the goal will remain at a lower tier for ever? and for all players? its not like this industry is heavy on ethics or something.. and as i said before, the money is pretty big right now..
 

tkalamba

Member
well, how about the innovator advertiser, who will want to maximize goals by -for example- identifying the leader in each group and getting him first, making the rest piece of cake?

since technology today already can give you that, how can you say that the goal will remain at a lower tier for ever? and for all players? its not like this industry is heavy on ethics or something.. and as i said before, the money is pretty big right now..

Who is this leader they'd be targeting? If it's someone on a blog, or a journalist, they simply just buy a sponsorship, and get them to write an advertorial.

You'd be surprised in the ethics behind advertising,there are all sorts of standards for what can and cannot be done, where to advertise and whatnot. You will only find smaller shops that do not follow these rules. Stuff like the IAB exists for a reason. There is a push for transparency and privacy for the consumer as ads will directly affect how a particular brand is viewed.
 

p3tran

Banned
no, I was talking smaller scale, like groups of teenagers for example.

also, nice to hear that there is a push for some kind of rules in the advertising sector.
I would be hard pushed to call it ethics though, as marketing is in its root the art of creating needs to people they wouldnt have on their own. :)
 
I think I'm just going to buy a console just to set it up and put it in a closet full of bondage and S&M gear. Fleshlights will be used as candleholders.

I don't have any of that stuff yet though, so I better log into chrome as myself and then order it.
 
MS just put out a comment about this.

Source: http://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-no-xbox-ones-kinect-wont-be-used-to-gather-user-data-for-ads

Microsoft said:
The comments in Ad Age attributed to Yusuf Mehdi were not in relation to Kinect. We do not have plans to target ads or content to you based on any data Kinect collects. We have a long-standing commitment to your privacy and will not target ads to you based on any data Kinect collects unless you choose to allow us to do so. Furthermore, we will give you a clear explanation of what is collected and how it will be used. Importantly, we do not collect your personal information to share or sell to third parties, and you are fully in control over what personal data is shared. We have strict policies to protect your privacy and these policies will continue to be upheld with our next generation product.
 
It's not so much them "listening" as you going out of your way to put all that information in a packet and mailing it to them, with the instruction to disseminate the information to anyone who asks.
I am not sure I follow you, are you suggesting the analysis of the kinect input takes place in the cloud?
 

Freki

Member

What?

"We do not have plans to target ads or content to you based on any data Kinect collects."

vs. next sentence

"We have a long-standing commitment to your privacy and will not target ads to you based on any data Kinect collects unless you choose to allow us to do so."


And why would Microsoft implement an "advertising api" for kinect if they don't plan on using it?
The attending Xbox LIVE Advertising Developer commented that they don’t actually receive a lot of the biometric information collected by Kinect. “This sort of works at two levels. There’s the game producers who have a different API, so a different set of code and system that they use, and they’ve got a lot more control of the whole thing,” he stated, “whereas from the advertising point of view we have a slightly more limited set, which is designed to protect the user. The company is very keen on protecting the user from any sort of abuse so we can’t do certain things.”
source
 

Barzul

Member
What?

"We do not have plans to target ads or content to you based on any data Kinect collects."

vs. next sentence

"We have a long-standing commitment to your privacy and will not target ads to you based on any data Kinect collects unless you choose to allow us to do so."


And why would they implement an "advertising api" for kinect then?

source
Might be referring to the voice stuff Penello spoke about.
 

Osiris

I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
"unless you chose to do so" so why the hell should I chose to do that? Why should I give up my privacy. Why don't they just say will never do it, period.

It's called "threading the needle".

They are between a rock and a hard place, they can't outright lie but neither can they be truthful, there are evidently 'plans', but saying so is highly detrimental to their marketing push.

So, typical of Microsoft for the entirety of this year we get vague bullshit and highly contradictory denials instead.
 

BigDug13

Member

So.

1. Kinect is gathering data.
2. They can use it to deliver targeted advertising if you agree to it.

What does the agreement consist of exactly, clicking a licensing agreement to use Kinect? Xbox Live sign-up agreement? What?

This definitely puts a new wrinkle into the "why does MS want the XBO to be "always connected" so badly" pre-180.
 

bishoptl

Banstick Emeritus
The comments in Ad Age attributed to Yusuf Mehdi were not in relation to Kinect. We do not have plans to target ads or content to you based on any data Kinect collects.
We have a long-standing commitment to your privacy and will not target ads to you based on any data Kinect collects unless you choose to allow us to do so.
Amazing.
 

Amir0x

Banned
that quote right there illustrates why people remain on edge over anything Microsoft says. Deservedly so, apparently.
 

IvorB

Member
that quote right there illustrates why people remain on edge over anything Microsoft says. Deservedly so, apparently.

It's so shifty. The first sentence is an outright lie which is exposed a few sentences later. What they really meant was: we do have plans to target advertising to users based on Kinect data on an opt-in basis.

You really have to wonder about MS right now. They went bragging about this stuff at a high profile event merely weeks before launch. Could they not have waited until after launch when the console is in people's homes rather than let the cat out of the bag now?
 

Coxy

Member
so they now openly admit kinect will be collecting data on you. they just wont share it unless you agree?

what counts as agreeing? agreeing to the ToS as soon as you turn on or update the system?

will you be able to use all features of the system without agreeing?
 
"unless you choose to do so" so why the hell should I choose to do that? Why should I give up my privacy. Why don't they just say they will never do it, period.

I think it's just corporate legalese.

It seems that as of right now, there is no plans for this, thus the first statement. However, what happens if they want to do this 7 years from now? That's what the second statement is for and thus why they won't close that door completely. If they would say definitively "No", then it shuts the door to the option completely, and if they did want to do something later, they could be in legal trouble if they wanted to explore this later.

At the very least, be glad that if they ever do this, it sounds like it would be opt-in rather than opt-out.
 
I think it's just corporate legalese.

It seems that as of right now, there is no plans for this, thus the first statement. However, what happens if they want to do this 7 years from now? That's what the second statement is for and thus why they won't close that door completely. If they would say definitively "No", then it shuts the door to the option completely, and if they did want to do something later, they could be in legal trouble if they wanted to explore this later.

At the very least, be glad that if they ever do this, it sounds like it would be opt-in rather than opt-out.

It's fairly telling that MS weighs the future potential for the kinect data's value for ad purposes to be greater than the potential boon from flat out denying it

In essence they have thought about it or else they wouldn't need to cover future possibilities

Honestly I think the most rational expectation at this point is that the kinect data will at some point be used for targeted ads or neilson ratings

Not seeing the conflict. They're saying they have no existing plans to do it, and wouldn't do it in the future without requiring consent.

What happens if to play Halo 6 you must update to the newest UI version AND accept new TOS?

Buried in new TOS? Kinect ad data usage

But you accepted it so MS is not at fault

somehow
 
I think it's just corporate legalese.

It seems that as of right now, there is no plans for this, thus the first statement. However, what happens if they want to do this 7 years from now? That's what the second statement is for and thus why they won't close that door completely. If they would say definitively "No", then it shuts the door to the option completely, and if they did want to do something later, they could be in legal trouble if they wanted to explore this later.
"7 years from now"?
Dude, they already have a working API.
 

p3tran

Banned
I think it's just corporate legalese.

It seems that as of right now, there is no plans for this, thus the first statement. However, what happens if they want to do this 7 years from now? That's what the second statement is for and thus why they won't close that door completely. If they would say definitively "No", then it shuts the door to the option completely, and if they did want to do something later, they could be in legal trouble if they wanted to explore this later.

At the very least, be glad that if they ever do this, it sounds like it would be opt-in rather than opt-out.

I dont think it means "7 years from now". at all.
it is rather plain:
<<We have a long-standing commitment to your privacy and will not target ads to you based on any data Kinect collects unless you choose to allow us to do so>>

nothing futuristic about it. just allow them to do so in some form and away we go.
plus, they do say kinect collects the data. now, not in the distant future.
and even if they dont target ads to you, they still collect your data. what do they use it for? ;)
 

Tsundere

Banned
I dont think it means "7 years from now". at all.
it is rather plain:
<<We have a long-standing commitment to your privacy and will not target ads to you based on any data Kinect collects unless you choose to allow us to do so>>

nothing futuristic about it. just allow them to do so in some form and away we go.
plus, they do say kinect collects the data. now, not in the distant future.
and even if they dont target ads to you, they still collect your data. what do they use it for? ;)
Imo, they should fully disclaim what information Kinect actually gathers.
 

HariKari

Member
Not seeing the conflict. They're saying they have no existing plans to do it, and wouldn't do it in the future without requiring consent.

How many Microsoft users willingly consented to PRSIM? None, so picking a fight with the legalese of it all is pointless. If the box does collect data in a way that is meaningful for advertisers, it will be used as such. The battle is already lost at that point. Either you welcome this abomination into your home and accept the inevitable, or you simply don't buy it. There is no middle ground. Microsoft's headstrong insistence on one Kinect for every box, and that Kinect is mandatory just tips their hand.

That they went back on this and have said "well, you can unplug it now" is no guarantee. They can make it required again at any point, or for big titles, to recapture most everyone who opted not to plug it in.

This isn't MS pushing ads aimed at the 18-34 dudebro demographic. It's much more sinister than that.
 

CLEEK

Member

They're spinning so much, they got dizzy at the end of the first sentence and forget what they'd said. No big deal.

I have no plans to think sexual thoughts about your wife. I have a long-standing commitment to her chastity, and would not bang her delicious, voluptuous, sexy body unless she allows me to.
 

Might be helpful to quote it so you don't have to go off thread

Kinect and Exercise Stats

Kinect creates a virtual game environment where your body motions and voice can be part of gameplay. Kinect uses the sensor, camera, and microphone to make gameplay possible. Some sensor data may be analyzed by Microsoft after it is anonymized; otherwise it is stored on your Xbox console and not used for other purposes. You control what happens to photographs taken during gameplay and whether voice commands are captured for analysis. You can turn Kinect off at any time.

When the Kinect sensor is used with certain games and apps, your skeletal movements can be used to estimate exercise stats. You can decide how your stats are managed and whether they are shared.

Not entirely sure what MS is doing with the data after it is anonymized

Also that can simply mean taking your name out of it

While still using the rest for whatever
 

Jotaka

Member
They can pretty much make a killing just using this method:

1 - download a bunch of ads data to xbox one
2 - check the parameters of ads (target public: age, sex etc)
3 - check kinnect data (age, sex, etc)
4 - select appropriate ads to show.
5 - ads image/video is downloaded to xbox
6 - profit.

And not a single byte of data about you leave your console and they can just say "no bio-metric data is stored or transmitted to our server" and be technically correct.
 

CLEEK

Member
MS don't clarify what data is recorded at all. Saying 'some sensor data' is about as vague as they could possibly be.

Some sensor data may be analyzed by Microsoft after it is anonymized; otherwise it is stored on your Xbox console and not used for other purposes

The interesting point, and one that I've mentioned before around privacy, is that all the Kinect data appears to be stored locally on your Xbone. When it connects to MS, it is transmitted to them. They then anonymize it (again, being vague in what they actually do) and use some or all of this data for targeted ads.

Unless you believe the latest PR line that they're never going to do targeted ads and the merest thoughts hadn't ever occurred to them. Oh, unless you chose to opt in. Opt into to something that apparently doesn't exist, but will do as soon as you tick the box...
 

Zaph

Member
Amazing. As a company, Microsoft is truly fucking lost - everyone is constantly cleaning up after their colleague's previous mess.

A lot of this stems from MS's awful corporate culture - anyone above middle management thinks they're an invaluable rock star and runs their mouth at every opportunity.

They need to borrow one of Apple's better traits - barring one or two top executives (I'm talking Tim Cook or Johnny Ive) it doesn't matter how much you're getting paid, you're a nobody. You're no one. You're expendable. Keep your mouth shut. Even their suppliers know - you do not talk about Apple unless they tell you to.

When you're part of a monolithic company - what you say publicly may make your department look amazing, but can have a detrimental effect on another.
 
that quote right there illustrates why people remain on edge over anything Microsoft says. Deservedly so, apparently.

It's fucking nuts man. They say they won't do it and there are NO PLANS on doing it but if they decide to do it they'll ask you first.

WTF?
 

Shosai

Banned
They can pretty much make a killing just using this method:

1 - download a bunch of ads data to xbox one
2 - check the parameters of ads (target public: age, sex etc)
3 - check kinnect data (age, sex, etc)
4 - select appropriate ads to show.
5 - ads image/video is downloaded to xbox
6 - profit.

And not a single byte of data about you leave your console and they can just say "no bio-metric data is stored or transmitted to our server" and be technically correct.

Problem with step 3. How could they automatically infer one's age and sex using Kinect? I have yet to see any real-world application do that with any sort of reliability. Which is moot since they would get since most of your useful data is submitted without the help of a camera. Your name, age, sex, address, interests, purchase history, nationality, and login times are submitted to them manually upon signing up to PSN/Xbox Live/ Nintendo Network/ Steam. No camera necessary.

Millions of Kinects have been out on the open market for years, and I have yet to see them collect any additional user data in any real-world setting that could possibly be useful to advertisers. They already have the previously-mentioned info from your initial signup, what good could a photo of your messy living room do? The "worst" I could see feasibly coming out of this are dumb interactive apps where you wave your hands to catch Doritos or something.

EDIT: Posted on Joystiq as of 20 minutes ago

"Someone was talking about how some of the new Xbox One Kinect features *could* be used in advertising - since we can see expressions, engagement, etc. and how that might be used to target advertising," Penello wrote. "This is the point that seems to draw some controversy."

"First - nobody is working on that. We have a lot more interesting and pressing things to dedicate time towards. [...] I'm not aware of any active work in this space. Second - if something like that ever happened, you can be sure it wouldn't happen without the user having control over it. Period."

http://www.joystiq.com/2013/10/07/microsoft-allays-fears-over-xbox-one-targeted-advertising/
 

CLEEK

Member
Amazing. As a company, Microsoft is truly fucking lost - everyone is constantly cleaning up after their colleague's previous mess.

A lot of this stems from MS's awful corporate culture - anyone above middle management thinks they're an invaluable rock star and runs their mouth at every opportunity.

They need to borrow one of Apple's better traits - barring one or two top executives (I'm talking Tim Cook or Johnny Ive) it doesn't matter how much you're getting paid, you're a nobody. You're no one. You're expendable. Keep your mouth shut. Even their suppliers know - you do not talk about Apple unless they tell you to.

When you're part of a monolithic company - what you say publicly may make your department look amazing, but can have a detrimental effect on another.

Ballmer's biggest legacy will be his 'stacking ranking' system for employee performance reviews. It has poisoned the entire company.

I know a few people who have worked at MS in software engineering. Their comments are usually the same. Microsoft pays very well, provides a ton of other benefits, gives you access to the best technology, but the politics affects everyone and is entirely toxic.

If you're not aware of what stack ranking is, and why it's so damaging read this or read this.

To succeed at MS, doing a good job is only part of it. You have to compete in everything you do, even against your own team mates. It would never be beneficial for you to work in a team with other high achievers, and there are plenty of stories around how people actively sabotaged their colleagues work to make their own score better in the ranking.
 
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